When stepping up from a .416, which direction to go?

[WAB]

I went from a .375 H&H to a custom M70 in .458 Lott. It is a stellar rifle. Unfortunately, a lifetime of hockey resulted in surgery in both wrists. The jury is still out, but I may have to pass the Lott on to someone who will be able to use it.

 

[Inline6]

I went from 375h&h to 416REM to 458Lott.

Having shot a 470NE I found it to be on par with the 416REM. In truth the 458Lott doesn't feel much more than my 416REM. That said I'm shooting a 450gr Barnes TSX @ 2350. I have not tried the 500gr bullets out of it as of yet.

Like others had said fit makes the difference.

 

[Bonk]

I went from 458Win to 375H&H and then to 404J. I still have the 375H&H and 404J but the 458Win is long gone. The 404J replaced it. I have no experience shooting game with either of them but in ballistics terms I don't see any big advantage 458Win has over 404 or your 416 and in my experience the recoil of the 458Win wasn't worth the step up in power. The only advantage 458Win has is it could be considered a stopper. I say could because it's probably at the low end of what might be considered a backup rifle capable of stopping motivated wounded DG. If it's a 458 you want definitely get 458Lott.

As much as I'd love to have a 450/400 ballistically it's the equivalent of a 416 or 404J. In a double I think 470NE is where I'd start.

Keep in mind, my comments are purely academic. I've never hunted with any of these calibers but I am a student of them. More than anything else listen to those that have actually used them on game before you pay any attention to my ramblings. I can tell you how three of them shoot but that's it.

 

[TOBY458]

I went from a .375 H&H to a custom M70 in .458 Lott. It is a stellar rifle. Unfortunately, a lifetime of hockey resulted in surgery in both wrists. The jury is still out, but I may have to pass the Lott on to someone who will be able to use it.

Going back to 375?

 

[Northern Shooter]

I’m also at a 416, and my next up is likely to be a 500 Jeff or 505 Gibbs. Like @VertigoBE, I don’t need either, but it would be fun to learn how to use a proper stopping cartridge.

Where would you say "stopping rifle cartridges" start at, 0.500 cal?

 

[Northern Shooter]

Depends on your hunting plans. You have the key, non-negotiable gun already, a 375HH which can be a backup gun for killing a duiker one trip, and an elephant the next. Good start.

The question is, are you going to hunt a tremendous number of elephants in your lifetime? If the answer is no, then you don't need the dedicated-purpose stopping power of a .577NE.

Are you going to hunt mostly buffalo, plus the occasional hippo/elephant/eland? Pretty hard to deny the utility of the 450-400 3" Nitro Express, and its ballistic twin the 404 Jeffery.

Since you already have a 375HH, and you even have a 416 rigby, perhaps the 404J or 450-400 is close to redundant. In which case, the gun I'd recommend you get to "top off" your dangerous game rifles is a 470NE. Most common double rifle ammo. Slightly better penetration than a 500NE with slightly less recoil. It's the perfect "client rifle caliber" for large dangerous game.

That's what I'm thinking, 470NE seems to strike the perfect balance between stopping power, cost and recoil and seems like the quintessential double rifle cartridge without stepping up too crazy into the 0.500s.

 

[chashardy]

Only reason to "step up" is elephant hunting. Your 416 has plenty of horsepower for anything else.
If I can pull the funds together for a Botswana elephant hunt in the near future, I will likely buy a 470NE and likely the Chapuis double and put a Trijicon RMR on it like the 375 I already have.
Ammo is more available and neither you or I will be making more than a couple of shots with the big rifle, so go for the bigger caliber over 450/400.

 

[BourbonTrail]

Where would you say "stopping rifle cartridges" start at, 0.500 cal?

458 is usually considered the line.

However, in my talks with folks on the forum, what I have read, and discussions with my PH, it is more of a grade. 416 or 404 for Cats, 458 for Buffalo, 500+ for Elephant.

 

[WAB]

Going back to 375?

I have .375 and 9.3x62 rifles. It’s frustrating as the Lott has never bothered me, but a bunch of metal in my wrist seems to make a difference.

 

[Northern Shooter]

I'm basically setting out to have a trio of rifles that will chamber cartridges in the 300, 400 and 500 grain ranges.

375 is my 300 grain.

416 will be my 400 grain.

And either 458, 470, 500 etc will be my 500 grain.

I don't think I'll ever be going more than 500.

 

[One Day...]

For those of you that own 375s and 416s, which direction did you go when you stepped up from there? I don't even own my .416 yet but I'm planning 2 steps ahead and starting to consider one of the larger big bores.

Option 1: 458's, WinMag and Lott
Option 2: 450/400 NE, 450 NE etc.
Option 3: 470NE
Option 4: something truly large in the >0.500 realm.

I'm currently leaning towards a 470NE as I'd like to buy a double and ammo availability for the 470 seems to be greater than some of the others.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Welcome to the club! Many of us have gone through that delicious angst

Based on personal experience, here is my feedback...

1) Skip the .416 ... OR ... make the .416 your only big bore.
There is tremendous overlap between a .375 shooting 350 gr slugs and a .416 shooting 400 gr slugs, and there is just as much overlap between a .416 shooting 450 gr slugs and a .458 shooting 500 gr slugs.
I sold my .416 Rigby.

2) Consider the concept of "stopper" rifle.
Whether you need one or not is a very personal question, but if you think you do, they start at .45 / 500 gr, period. Anything smaller, including .40 is lacking.
Sure, the modern .458 Win does it all, and just as reliably, but why not take a Lott that gives you an edge and can still shoot .458 Win is you prefer.
Mine is a .458 Lott.

3) Ah! the romance of the double...
Sure, oceans of inks have been spilled talking about this fabled lighting-quick second shot, but keep in mind that shots #3 and 4 are a long time away.
Sure, many like the sweet shooting .450/400, but if you go the double route because of this famed second self-defense shot, it almost HAS to be in a stopper caliber, otherwise, what is the point?
Mine is in .470 because ammo choices are the best/most available.

One more point, anything past 50 yards becomes more complicated with a double, while it is still very, very simple with a scoped rifle. Things have a way to happen in the hunting fields, and that last-day shot at 100 yards, or nothing, is a real possibility. I carried my .470 for days and days after elephant in Zim and lion in the Kalahari, and ended up shooting the elephant with the scoped .375 H&H and the lion with the scoped .458 that I had asked one tracker to carry just for this purpose.
My Krieghoff .470 is for sale.

4) Bigger not necessarily better.
Yep, the various .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, .450 Rigby / .460 Weatherby (both share essentially the same case with or without belt and the Rigby can be up loaded), .577 and other shoulder canons are cool, but darn few can shoot them accurately. A 300 gr slug in the right place beats any day a .500 gr (or bigger!) slug in the wrong place, and THERE IS a recoil threshold for each of us.
Mine is at the proven 500 gr @ 2,150 fps (e.g. .458 Lott / .470 NE) in a 11 lbs. double or heavy-barreled & low-power scoped bolt rifle.

5) Think practical. Unless romance supersedes any other concern - which is quite legitimate, I was on that bandwagon myself for decades - it is hard to beat a R8 Blaser with a PG barrel (.300); the ubiquitous .375 H&H barrel (cats, eland, one-rifle mix bag safari); and a .458 Lott barrel (buff, hippo on land, elephant).
Truth be told, the .375 will suffice, but the .458 sure hits them a lot harder if they do not get the memo at the first shot and come to inquire. This is why I use one... just in case...

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

458 is usually considered the line.

However, in my talks with folks on the forum, what I have read, and discussions with my PH, it is more of a grade. 416 or 404 for Cats, 458 for Buffalo, 500+ for Elephant.

I remember reading .458+ in caliber, 500+ grain bullet and 5,000+ fpe for a proper stopper on the big stuff.

 

[BeeMaa]

I went from 375H&H to 416RM...then right back to the 375 and sold the 416RM.

I found the weight necessary to mitigate the recoil of a heavy caliber (above .400) had an adverse effect on me wanting to carry it all day hunting...or even for short stalks. Now everyone is different and your hunting dreams will certainly vary from mine, but you should consider how many times exactly you intended to use a 404J, 458LOTT, 470NE...etc and for what animals.

For my hunting purposes a nice light rifle that I can shoot accurately and is legal for all DG is just fine. I'll save the rifle money and use it to hunt more animals.

 

[One Day...]

I'm basically setting out to have a trio of rifles that will chamber cartridges in the 300, 400 and 500 grain ranges.

375 is my 300 grain.

416 will be my 400 grain.

And either 458, 470, 500 etc will be my 500 grain.

I don't think I'll ever be going more than 500.

Yep, I did that too until I realized that 400 gr is in most cases either too much or too little ... OR ... 400 gr is all you need ... along with a little prayer if you truly need to stop a buff or elephant...

 

[Doug Hamilton]

For those of you that own 375s and 416s, which direction did you go when you stepped up from there? I don't even own my .416 yet but I'm planning 2 steps ahead and starting to consider one of the larger big bores.

Option 1: 458's, WinMag and Lott
Option 2: 450/400 NE, 450 NE etc.
Option 3: 470NE
Option 4: something truly large in the >0.500 realm.

I'm currently leaning towards a 470NE as I'd like to buy a double and ammo availability for the 470 seems to be greater than some of the others.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

If I already owned a .416, and thought I could afford a double rifle, the .470 NE is the way I'd go. I like my .458, but there is something about a DR that calls to hunters.

 

[DLSJR]

I currently Shoot a 416 Hoffman and 375 H&H. In the past I had a 458 Winchester and also a 470 NE. I got rid of both bigger guns as I think the 416 is a fantastic blend of shootability and power. It may be the ideal buffalo caliber, IMO. The 375 is ideal for a 1-gun hunt.

But I’ve been thinking a lot lately about getting another 470 just because I really liked using a double for buffalo and elephant. If I do, it’ll likely be a VC or Chapuis.

 

[VertigoBE]

Welcome to the club! Many of us have gone through that delicious angst

Based on personal experience, here is my feedback...

1) Skip the .416 ... OR ... make the .416 your only big bore.
There is tremendous overlap between a .375 shooting 350 gr slugs and a .416 shooting 400 gr slugs, and there is just as much overlap between a .416 shooting 450 gr slugs and a .458 shooting 500 gr slugs.
I sold my .416 Rigby.

2) Consider the concept of "stopper" rifle.
Whether you need one or not is a very personal question, but if you think you do, they start at .45 / 500 gr, period. Anything smaller, including .40 is lacking.
Sure, the modern .458 Win does it all, and just as reliably, but why not take a Lott that gives you an edge and can still shoot .458 Win is you prefer.
Mine is a .458 Lott.

3) Ah! the romance of the double...
Sure, oceans of inks have been spilled talking about this fabled lighting-quick second shot, but keep in mind that shots #3 and 4 are a long time away.
Sure, many like the sweet shooting .450/400, but if you go the double route because of this famed second self-defense shot, it almost HAS to be in a stopper caliber, otherwise, what is the point?
Mine is in .470 because ammo choices are the best/most available.

One more point, anything past 50 yards becomes more complicated with a double, while it is still very, very simple with a scoped rifle. Things have a way to happen in the hunting fields, and that last-day shot at 100 yards, or nothing, is a real possibility. I carried my .470 for days and days after elephant in Zim and lion in the Kalahari, and ended up shooting the elephant with the scoped .375 H&H and the lion with the scoped .458 that I had asked one tracker to carry just for this purpose.
My Krieghoff .470 is for sale.

4) Bigger not necessarily better.
Yep, the various .500 Jeff, .505 Gibbs, .450 Rigby / .460 Weatherby (both share essentially the same case with or without belt and the Rigby can be up loaded), .577 and other shoulder canons are cool, but darn few can shoot them accurately. A 300 gr slug in the right place beats any day a .500 gr (or bigger!) slug in the wrong place, and THERE IS a recoil threshold for each of us.
Mine is at the proven 500 gr @ 2,150 fps (e.g. .458 Lott / .470 NE) in a 11 lbs. double or heavy-barreled & low-power scoped bolt rifle.

5) Think practical. Unless romance supersedes any other concern - which is quite legitimate, I was on that bandwagon myself for decades - it is hard to beat a R8 Blaser with a PG barrel (.300); the ubiquitous .375 H&H barrel (cats, eland, one-rifle mix bag safari); and a .458 Lott barrel (buff, hippo on land, elephant).
Truth be told, the .375 will suffice, but the .458 sure hits them a lot harder if they do not get the memo at the first shot and come to inquire. This is why I use one... just in case...

Glad to see you back @One Day… !

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I currently own a 375H&H, 458 Lott, 450 Rigby and 470 Nitro express. If you really just want to go for power then I say go with the 450 Rigby cartridge, I've owned a 500 Jeffery and I would choose the 450 Rigby over the 500 Jeffery any day of the week. I can load my 450 Rigby up to ballistics similar to that of the 500 Jeffery, which I currently am doing quite easily without pushing pressures, a 550 grain Woodleigh at 2240fps, the .458 calibre 550 grain Woodleigh has a SD of .375 which is much higher than that of a 0.510 calbire 570 grain bullet at a SD of .313. Shooting this load out of my Rigby rifle just shy of 11lbs for me doesn't feel terrible on the shoulder but its enough recoil for me. And with the 450 Rigby I can load much lighter loads if I want to, a 480 grain Woodleigh at around 2200fps or less which again is really more than enough for anything if the heavier loads are too much recoil for you. .458 calibre projectiles are much easier to come by with alot more choices (atleast where I am anyway).

Not that much of these technical details really matter, with the right shot placement obviously anything in this realm of calibres is going to do the job with zero doubt but 450 Rigby is definitely my pick when it comes to power.

I am also a big fan of the 458 Lott, the standard load I'm running through mine is a 500 grain Woodleigh at 2230fps, again more than enough to take anything.

If you are going to choose a double I would go with the 470 (which I have) just because of all the reasons everyone else has already mentioned.

I have also actually hunted quite a bit with all of these calibres, not just fired them on the range.

I hope some of this info helps you make a decision.

 

[Scott CWO]

Get a semi-custom CZ550 in .458 Lott. It holds five in the magazine. I love mine and have shot elephant, buffalo and several brown bears with it.

If you really want a double rifle, definitely go with the .470 NE.

 

[saswart]

Interesting...

Noted you do not have your 416 yet, yet you are planning the next rifle....This tells me me you love firearms and let's be honest, if the 416 is not the last, neither will the next rifle thereafter be the last as well...

My suggestion would be a double in 470NE or 500NE, with the latter my preference. Thereafter I would do a 458 and then the next double and so on.

Why? You already have 2 calibers that can shoot everything on earth in a bolt gun. Why have 3 (well you should have more) but maybe first get the double and then the next bolt. If you go 458 Lott/Rigby next, your next purchase would be a double. Then if you want a double in a caliber class not covered by your other's it would be 500NE.

Also to consider, if you choose a 458 caliber, then apart from being a double and the nostalgic reasons, a 470NE for me is just to close to a 458, caliber wise, and may I venture and put my neck out maybe a bit less "powerful". A standard 458 Lott / Rigby with a 500 gr bullet at say 2300 ft/s will give you approximately 5800 ft lbf/7000J, where a 470 NE also shooting a 500gr at 2150 fps will give you roughly 5100 ft lbf. That is why I would rather go the 500NE (which to be fare now in hindsight shoots a 570gr @2150ft/s to give you roughly same energy as the 458... Yeah I am not considering the SD...

For me actually the only reason against a 470NE is it just feels to close to a 458 caliber, but that would not stop me from getting one someday, it would just be my last one, and to be honest probably the most fun and versatile one.... What an excellent example of an oxymoron

So, if you are considering spacing your rifle in "caliber", go for a 500 NE double and then the 458. You can also do the double in say a 450NE/470NE and the 500Jeff/505Gibs and the 450/400.

In the end, you will wonder whether your arsenal should not be:
416 R bolt & 450/400NE double
458 Lott or Rigby bolt & 470 NE double
500 Jeff/505 bolt & 500 NE double