What makes or breaks your decision to book a hunt

[Tanks]

.... It is a marketing tool that is used throughout the industry to avoid price shock. A quality wilderness hunt is very expensive and it has nothing to do with daily rates. If you get your animals early and leave, there’s no refund. Therefore, it’s not a daily rate. ... If you want an elephant, breaking it down into a daily rate means nothing. The price is the price.

Well, I get that. However, in the case I was talking about they are advertising a big tusker hunt for $80K+. Most of the cost justification is due to the size of the trophy being advertised. If I want to run around for 14 days and not shoot a big tusker I can go to other countries and do it cheaper. I am fine with not shooting anything, but they'd have to have a reasonable deduct for it from the overall cost. Not to mention it gives an incentive to the outfitter to work hard and also not overbook. There have been many cases of outfitters booking hunts for trophies they do not have.

Also, the model is daily rate plus trophy fee in most African hunts. Comparing African model to US model doesn't make sense.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen … Australia, a definite Bucket-List hunt locale & I would enjoy + appreciate reaching out over PM for abit of mentoring on Do’s & Dont’s for proper planning, plus, the only locale my Son + two/2 Son-in-Laws immediate stated, “I’m in on this trip!”

@Jaegger
Send me a PM my son.

 

[Scott CWO]

Well, I get that. However, in the case I was talking about they are advertising a big tusker hunt for $80K+. Most of the cost justification is due to the size of the trophy being advertised. If I want to run around for 14 days and not shoot a big tusker I can go to other countries and do it cheaper. I am fine with not shooting anything, but they'd have to have a reasonable deduct for it from the overall cost. Not to mention it gives an incentive to the outfitter to work hard and also not overbook. There have been many cases of outfitters booking hunts for trophies they do not have.

Also, the model is daily rate plus trophy fee in most African hunts. Comparing African model to US model doesn't make sense.

Actually, you left out or forgot the part that you can go back for a second attempt in the same year by September 15 if unsuccessful on the first 14 day trip. In addition, success is very high, if not 100% on 60+ pounders. The $10k refund if unsuccessful is just a gesture for someone who couldn’t come back. The chances of being unsuccessful on two different trips in the same season in that area is near zero.

I know of several hunts in the US with trophy fees but you are right that trophy fees are much more common in Africa. My point was that the daily rate isn’t a daily rate if it cannot be refunded or adjusted. A ten day hunt in Tanzania for buffalo at $1500 per day is really just a $15k hunt plus trophy fees but $1500 per day sounds cheaper.

 

[Tanks]

Actually, you left out or forgot the part that you can go back for a second attempt in the same year by September 15 if unsuccessful on the first 14 day trip. In addition, success is very high, if not 100% on 60+ pounders. The $10k refund if unsuccessful is just a gesture for someone who couldn’t come back. The chances of being unsuccessful on two different trips in the same season in that area is near zero.

I know of several hunts in the US with trophy fees but you are right that trophy fees are much more common in Africa. My point was that the daily rate isn’t a daily rate if it cannot be refunded or adjusted. A ten day hunt in Tanzania for buffalo at $1500 per day is really just a $15k hunt plus trophy fees but $1500 per day sounds cheaper.

Well, maybe I misunderstood them on the second attempt, because my impression was that I would still pay the daily fees and my only savings would be the $10K. I agree that $1,500 a day for 10 days is just a breakdown of the costs. I doubt anyone would leave camp early even if they got their main trophy. Personally, I enjoy Africa, have been since my first Safari 50 years ago with my dad. Not to mention, one would not be able to get an earlier flight back due to flights being full all the time on short notice.

 

[Scott CWO]

Well, maybe I misunderstood them on the second attempt, because my impression was that I would still pay the daily fees and my only savings would be the $10K. I agree that $1,500 a day for 10 days is just a breakdown of the costs. I doubt anyone would leave camp early even if they got their main trophy. Personally, I enjoy Africa, have been since my first Safari 50 years ago with my dad. Not to mention, one would not be able to get an earlier flight back due to flights being full all the time on short notice.

Yes, I agree. I love Africa. In 2017 in Tanzania, I left camp a few days early to tour Serengeti NP and the Ngorogoro Crater. I had taken all the species I wanted with Nathan Askew and he set up the Serengeti tour for us.

Last June, I left Botswana a few days early after taking my elephant and after transferring to another area for gemsbok. I was able to make it home in time for Father’s Day, which is also the anniversary day of my CAR incident, for which we have a get-together. That’s the only time I have ever left early and changed flights. This year in Zambia, I am taking my parents and I will be in Tanzania next year and definitely won’t be leaving early from either trip. Good luck on your Zambia safari!

 

[Hunt anything]

Other than an emergency I can’t think of any reason to leave a camp early, you can always find something interesting to do, game parks or just relaxing in camp and watching game, I try to find reasons to stay in Africa. Last year both my wife and I were secretly hoping for false Covid test so we could stay in camp. But in today’s world we all seem to feel rushed and to me relaxing has become a lost art.

 

[lockingblock]

I would add, even with the issues mentioned in this topic, I have found African Outfitters to be much easier to deal with and more responsive than outfitters in any other country. African outfitters are almost universally great to talk to, happy to explain and answer questions, and accommodating.

Its generally a pleasure to do business with them.


i definitely can’t say the same about several US outfitters I’ve dealt with. I’ve had US outfitters that charge +1k a day for bird hunts, run out of food…lodge that has failing heat in wintertime…being sent to blinds that are blatantly non productive while preferred client groups go to hot blinds and limit out by 9am. Only saw the outfitter when he wanted the check.

I am impressed by the business acumen and hospitality of African outfitters. They seem to have a higher standard than anywhere else in the world.

 

[Tanks]

...

i definitely can’t say the same about several US outfitters I’ve dealt with. I’ve had US outfitters that charge +1k a day for bird hunts, run out of food…lodge that has failing heat in wintertime…being sent to blinds that are blatantly non productive while preferred client groups go to hot blinds and limit out by 9am. Only saw the outfitter when he wanted the check.

...

I think one really has to do their due diligence with US outfitters. A couple of years ago I did a pheasant hunt. ( https://paulnelsonfarm.com/).

Accommodations and food were great. The family that owned it were very nice. As a solo hunter I had my own bus, two guides with dogs and had a great time during the 3 days of hunting. However, it was not cheap either, I guess one pays for what one gets. I did feel I got good value regardless of the cost.

 

[375Fox]

I would add, even with the issues mentioned in this topic, I have found African Outfitters to be much easier to deal with and more responsive than outfitters in any other country. African outfitters are almost universally great to talk to, happy to explain and answer questions, and accommodating.

Its generally a pleasure to do business with them.


i definitely can’t say the same about several US outfitters I’ve dealt with. I’ve had US outfitters that charge +1k a day for bird hunts, run out of food…lodge that has failing heat in wintertime…being sent to blinds that are blatantly non productive while preferred client groups go to hot blinds and limit out by 9am. Only saw the outfitter when he wanted the check.

I am impressed by the business acumen and hospitality of African outfitters. They seem to have a higher standard than anywhere else in the world.

I’d generally agree with you. I think the long season with quota in Africa creates a less stressed hunting environment for clients and PHs. The short seasons and tag system in USA creates a stressful hunting environment where outfitters need to hunt multiple hunters during same short window to actually make money and likely have difficulty retaining guides from year to year because there isn’t year round work. I also generally think you get what you pay for hunting in USA. There is a much wider range of prices in elk and mule deer hunts than there are for kudu or Cape buffalo hunts. I think the long seasons and quota allow better management overall.

 

[Ridge Runner]

This whole daily rate issue that African wilderness operators use in marketing in Botswana, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania, etc… is absurd and just a way to make it appear that the hunts are cheaper than they really are priced. These hunts have a total price whether you hunt the whole time allotted or not. Refunds are not given if you finish early and leave so it’s not really a daily rate. It is a marketing tool that is used throughout the industry to avoid price shock. A quality wilderness hunt is very expensive and it has nothing to do with daily rates. If you get your animals early and leave, there’s no refund. Therefore, it’s not a daily rate. Some South Africa and Namibia operators offer true daily rates where you can book for 5, 7, 10 or 14 days. On the contrary, most multi-species hunts in wild areas are booked for 10 or more days and the total price is the price. In North America and most of the world, hunts are advertised at the total cost without daily rates. A stone sheep might be $60k, a Dall’s sheep might be $30k, a Marco Polo might be $40k, a moose might be $23k with no mention of daily rates. If you want an elephant, breaking it down into a daily rate means nothing. The price is the price.

I kind of get your point, but you are also kind of comparing apples to oranges.

A client books a Dall Sheep hunt for $30K for a 14 day trip gets his/her Dall Sheep in 7 days and leaves early with no refund for the 7 remaining days

The same client books a Leopard hunt for $50K for a 14 day trip gets his/her Leopard in 7 days and leaves with no refund for the 7 remaining days.

I don't see any difference. The hunts cost what they cost.

A client on a whim decides they want to hunt 6 animals in 3 days, the last 3 days of their 10 days vacation before going home. This client can figure out what it's going to cost them for the 3 days of lodging, and the trophy fee for each of the 6 animals.

Murphy's Law takes effect, the client hunting on a whim is there for 2 days, kills doesn't kill any animals and has to leave early. The client and PH get together and the client and PH can easily figure out what this client owes for the 2 days with the outfitter.

This client on a whim decides to go on a 3 day hog hunt for unlimited hogs (the clients goal is at least 6 hogs) at $350.00 per day/night.

Murphy's Law strikes again, and this client has to leave after 2 days/nights having killed no hogs. The daily fee is $350.00, again it's easy for the client and outfitter to figure out how much the client owes.

With only cost of daily fees due.

I can understand the need for posting trophy and daily fees based on these 2 actually 3 different scenarios. Because our hunting on a whim client in Africa is only paying for the animals he killed and not for the animals they didn't kill.

Just out of curiosity:

A client books a Dall Sheep hunt and doesn't get a Fall Sheep.

Q: Does the client get any portion of their money back if they are successful in killing a Dall Sheep.

2nd Q: Does the client have to pay additional money for killing say a Mule Deer while on their way to hunt a Dall Sheep?

I do have a bit of a grievance with hunting daily rate fees vs non hunting daily rate fees. i.e. I'm on a 14 day trip with an outfitter; 10 of those days are designated and used as hunting days and 4 of those days are designated for and used as non hunting days at the end of the hunt yet I'm charged hunting daily rate fees for all 14 days.

Other than above I have no problem with the two different daily fee rates.

 

[Tanks]

...

I do have a bit of a grievance with hunting daily rate fees vs non hunting daily rate fees. i.e. I'm on a 14 day trip with an outfitter; 10 of those days are designated and used as hunting days and 4 of those days are designated for and used as non hunting days at the end of the hunt yet I'm charged hunting daily rate fees for all 14 days.

Other than above I have no problem with the two different daily fee rates.

Well, did you bring it up with the outfitter? In one of my hunts due to connection issues I needed to stay an extra 4 days. I asked the outfitter if after my DG hunt I could convert to PG and pay PG rates (significantly less) and stay the extra 4 days and they agreed. Otherwise, I would have made other arrangements.

At CMS people come and hunt and afterwards stay extra at the fishing camp and go fishing and pay those rates (~ $300 or so). Last year one of the members here did it in reverse, booked a few days at the fishing camp and then started his 7 day buffalo hunt with the PH.

 

[Doug3006]

I’ve been fortunate that the outfits I’ve hunted with in Africa have had clear, easily understood pricing. All based their services on a day rate plus trophy fees. No, they didn’t offer refunds on the daily rate if I tagged out early and left….though I can’t imagine leaving early barring some family emergency! It’s too much fun over there!

I prepared budgets based on the day rate, trophy fees and incidentals like tips, charters or transit fees to the big airport, shipping, etc. I compared various outfits and made my decision based on the overall value. I haven’t been burned yet.

My point is, no matter what pricing scheme is used, if the cost components are clearly stated, there shouldn’t be any difficulty comparing options or surprises after the hunt is over. I know that’s a big IF…but risk can be reduced by going with a reputable operator. I’ve never heard a complaint in this regard about outfits like Charlton McCallum Safaris, Mokore Safaris (the Duckworth’s), and many other legendary outfits. Maybe they cost more, but the combination of their reputations and excellence takes a lot of worry out of the experience.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Well, I get that. However, in the case I was talking about they are advertising a big tusker hunt for $80K+. Most of the cost justification is due to the size of the trophy being advertised. If I want to run around for 14 days and not shoot a big tusker I can go to other countries and do it cheaper. I am fine with not shooting anything, but they'd have to have a reasonable deduct for it from the overall cost. Not to mention it gives an incentive to the outfitter to work hard and also not overbook. There have been many cases of outfitters booking hunts for trophies they do not have.

Also, the model is daily rate plus trophy fee in most African hunts. Comparing African model to US model doesn't make sense.

It does when you compare daily rates for US unlimited hogs hog hunt; US outfitters that charge the client by the antler size/ scoring points; and when the client has to pay separately for lodging and/or food and other amenities at a nearby hotel/motel, local restaurants and local shops.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Well, did you bring it up with the outfitter? In one of my hunts due to connection issues I needed to stay an extra 4 days. I asked the outfitter if after my DG hunt I could convert to PG and pay PG rates (significantly less) and stay the extra 4 days and they agreed. Otherwise, I would have made other arrangements.

At CMS people come and hunt and afterwards stay extra at the fishing camp and go fishing and pay those rates (~ $300 or so). Last year one of the members here did it in reverse, booked a few days at the fishing camp and then started his 7 day buffalo hunt with the PH.

I did bring of the difference to 2 outfitters.

One outfitter it didn't matter they were all considered hunting days. I won't be using that outfit owner/PH again.

The other outfit owner and his PHs have been really good and I will continue to hunt with them.

 

[meigsbucks]

References can be an extremely valuable tool in researching outfitters provided that they are used in the proper context. In my experiences with clients, more often than not they are a misused resource. Obviously, every reference offered by an outfitter is going to tell you that they had a great time and that they highly recommend the outfit. If that's all you are looking for in a reference inquiry, you are missing out on the true value of making the contact.

References can be excellent sources used to verify all sorts of information that the outfitter has advertised. Don't simply ask the reference if they had a "good time". Ask if they got the experience that they were promised. Ask them detailed questions about things like the hunting properties, quality of game, the amenities, or whatever qualities that are most important to you in your own safari.

Furthermore, references can be used as a standard of consistency. If you speak to a half dozen references who all had different types of safaris, yet all claim that their expectations were met or exceeded, it tells you a lot about the reliability of the outfitter. If an outfitter can exceed the expectations of a hunting couple, a family on safari, or an experienced dangerous game hunter all at the same time, chances are they know what they are doing. If you are just going to reach out to a reference and ask if they had a good time, then you are significantly limiting the value of your efforts in regard to that specific resource.

I have questions list. I get the outfitters answers and then when contacting references, see if their answers match up with the outfitter. Additionally, I then question the references on their individual experiences.

 

[Hunt anything]

Another thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned is if you book a 10 day buff hunt in Zimbabwe and you take your buff on day 3 don’t want any plains game and want to leave. The outfitter may have turned down bookings for those days and this would be an exceptional loss of funds for him and the staff.

 

[Doug3006]

Another thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned is if you book a 10 day buff hunt in Zimbabwe and you take your buff on day 3 don’t want any plains game and want to leave. The outfitter may have turned down bookings for those days and this would be an exceptional loss of funds for him and the staff.

Great point.

 

[Tanks]

Another thing I don’t think anyone has mentioned is if you book a 10 day buff hunt in Zimbabwe and you take your buff on day 3 don’t want any plains game and want to leave. The outfitter may have turned down bookings for those days and this would be an exceptional loss of funds for him and the staff.

I don't think anyone mentioned not paying the daily rates if one decides to leave early. Heck, if I were to take my main trophy on day ONE I wouldn't care about the daily rates for the rest of the time. It is a ten day hunt after all. Also, my contract (you guys sign contracts I hope) has an overall number for commitment in regards to daily rates. The only way the hunt total would go up or down is based on the trophy fees.

One other thing, every contract I have ever signed has asked for daily rates to be paid prior to arrival. No refunds unless the hunt is canceled due to unforeseen circumstances (Covid shutdown etc.) on the outfitter's side.

Now, there was one Tanzanian outfitter I had a conversation with a while ago. His policy was no refunds period. I brought up the country being shutdown and not even him being able to go there and hunt. His response was that is what travel insurance is for. I did not book with him.

CMS allowed me and others to move our hunts. Refunds were an option as well but no one took them up on it I think. I had booked a Scottish driven pheasant hunt in 2020, Scotland shutdown and outfitter refunded everyone's deposit (50% of the cost).

It is pretty important to look at cancellation policies.

 

[Ridge Runner]

We could debate the daily rate fees and the trophy fees considerably. But in the end as clients and outfitters we are contracting to hunt x number of days for this / these animal(s) for X amount of money. The only amount of money refunded should be for the animal(s) that were not wounded or killed.

IMO as a client there should be some sort of proration to daily fees once the main animal(s) have been killed and no further hunting is going to be done.

Hypothetically:
A client is packaging DG with PG with after the hunt activity. Let's say a 14 day trip. On day 6 the client gets their buff; the daily rate could be reduced from DG daily rate to PG daily rate. Let's say by day 10 the client has killed the PG animal(s) he wanted and chooses the last 4 days for non hunting activities. Then the daily rate could be reduced to non hunting daily rate.

This could work with one exception there are no guarantees that this hypothetical is 100%. While hunting buff on day 1 the client kills 2 of 4 their PG animals, on days 2 - 4 the client doesn't kill any animals, day 5 the client kills #3 of his PG animals and gets their buff, days 6 - 8 the client doesn't kill his last remaining PG animal, on day 9 the client not only kills their last packaged PG animal along with an opportunity animal a hyena....have you all figured out the nightmare the outfitter is having by trying to figure out the proper daily rate fees to charge this client and to pay his PH and tracker(s).

Just a suggestion, if you really have a problem with daily rate fees and you really want to leave early after a successful hunt then why not : if you do tip--- just tip the PH, Tracker(s), and staff according to the number of days you are in camp/lodge, if the PH is also the owner/operator consider the unused daily rate fees as his tip or a portion of their tip.

 

[Scott CWO]

I kind of get your point, but you are also kind of comparing apples to oranges.

A client books a Dall Sheep hunt for $30K for a 14 day trip gets his/her Dall Sheep in 7 days and leaves early with no refund for the 7 remaining days

The same client books a Leopard hunt for $50K for a 14 day trip gets his/her Leopard in 7 days and leaves with no refund for the 7 remaining days.

I don't see any difference. The hunts cost what they cost.

A client on a whim decides they want to hunt 6 animals in 3 days, the last 3 days of their 10 days vacation before going home. This client can figure out what it's going to cost them for the 3 days of lodging, and the trophy fee for each of the 6 animals.

Murphy's Law takes effect, the client hunting on a whim is there for 2 days, kills doesn't kill any animals and has to leave early. The client and PH get together and the client and PH can easily figure out what this client owes for the 2 days with the outfitter.

This client on a whim decides to go on a 3 day hog hunt for unlimited hogs (the clients goal is at least 6 hogs) at $350.00 per day/night.

Murphy's Law strikes again, and this client has to leave after 2 days/nights having killed no hogs. The daily fee is $350.00, again it's easy for the client and outfitter to figure out how much the client owes.

With only cost of daily fees due.

I can understand the need for posting trophy and daily fees based on these 2 actually 3 different scenarios. Because our hunting on a whim client in Africa is only paying for the animals he killed and not for the animals they didn't kill.

Just out of curiosity:

A client books a Dall Sheep hunt and doesn't get a Fall Sheep.

Q: Does the client get any portion of their money back if they are successful in killing a Dall Sheep.

2nd Q: Does the client have to pay additional money for killing say a Mule Deer while on their way to hunt a Dall Sheep?

I do have a bit of a grievance with hunting daily rate fees vs non hunting daily rate fees. i.e. I'm on a 14 day trip with an outfitter; 10 of those days are designated and used as hunting days and 4 of those days are designated for and used as non hunting days at the end of the hunt yet I'm charged hunting daily rate fees for all 14 days.

Other than above I have no problem with the two different daily fee rates.

You make my point. We agree. Hunts cost what the cost. Why are African hunts described with daily rates? Just establish a cost for the whole trip and state it openly.