What is the future of the fine firearms market

[Daniel Cary]

Everything's on a 5yr wait list anyway ; .. so that's the future, I suppose. ?

 

[BeeMaa]

That is not the case for a Rigby ‘best’. What you are describing is the process for a highland stalker or big game. As much as I love mine, it’s a far cry from a London best.

Not sure what you mean by that. Rigby's own website states that their London Best guns are made using "...Mauser actions of various lengths, and premium quality barrels from our select suppliers."

That sounds like they are outsourcing the action and barrels.

 

[Whit]

@Whit I like German guns quite a bit, but they are dime a dozen and often times sell shockingly, absurdly cheap. For 1910-1970 era German guns, price is in the eyes of the beholder. What that means is you need to buy them VERY cheap to not take on a lot of risk. If you buy them very cheap (meaning you pass on 95% of them), there is always a non-collector that sees it, is completely dazzled by the $10,000 in engraving on the gun, and thinks nothing of buying it for $3000 just based on beauty and the modern value of the engraving labor. But you show that same gun to a very savvy collector in the German Gun Collector's Association and they'll pass on it.

The only ultra premium vintage german gun that comes to mind is an August Schuler clamshell action double rifle. Those are going to make a strong showing in the coming decades.

Everything above, you can exchange the word German for Austrian Ferlach and the same thing is true.

Exception to all of this: After 1980 Heym and others came on the scene making MODERN guns. Those can be great investments because they are still current production and therefore even the non-collector wants them because they are less expensive than new. Heym double rifles are great investments whether due to non-collector demand, or collector demand. As long as new prices continue to go up, they pull up the value of the secondary market. Its all a bonus if its prolifically engraved and deemed one-of-a-kind which many of them are. (bringing collector demand) VertigoBE bought such a Heym at auction in London for $20,000 less than fair market value in my opinion.

@rookhawk, thanks. I think I'll get after acquiring Heym & Merkel & Krieghoff double rifles, then.

Interesting - I just acquired an August Schuler clamshell action (assuming the photos I found online of August Schuler clamshell actions match up to what I've got here) drilling the other week. Condition is rough, with a replacement lever, but it was originally gold-enlaid, high quality engraving, etc. Thought it was a unique little souvenir piece.

 

[uplander01]

There seems to be a lot of commentary on here about British cars and motorbikes. Can’t speak to the motorbikes but I do currently own a new generation Land Rover d130, and it’s the best car I’ve ever had. Makes American SUV’s seem fragile and lackluster…..jeeps especially, just my opinion.

As far as rigby, hh and the rest, they will all be owned by some corporate mass at some point, there is no other way they will survive. I personally feel that in the bolt rifle category you’re better off contracting any one of about half dozen American rifle building masters…..product will just as good if not better than anything out of England and cost half as much. I know it’s personal taste and perception but even if I had a 100 million in the bank I still wouldn’t be spending 200k on a gun.

 

[WAB]

Not sure what you mean by that. Rigby's own website states that their London Best guns are made using "...Mauser actions of various lengths, and premium quality barrels from our select suppliers."

That sounds like they are outsourcing the action and barrels.

On a highland stalker or big game the complete barreled action comes from Mauser. On their ‘Best’ bolt gun the actions and barrels are sourced separately then fitted and finished by Rigby. I like Rigby a lot, but to be totally honest, their best bolt gun may not be totally true to the definition of ‘London Best’. Take a walk through the H&H or Westley Richards shops (I know, Birmingham) and you will see the difference. Likely not a difference in firm and function, but you may note some differences in manufacture.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Alistair, You are correct. I did focus on the poor reliability of the mainstream British cars and motorcycles. And left out Bentley, Airbus and Rolls Royce. And also left out Fiat and others of the early years.

If we were sitting around the fire I would concede to your counterpoints and get up to pour you the next round.

Then I would try to make other points to lessen the blow you landed to my OP :>)))))

 

[WAB]

There seems to be a lot of commentary on here about British cars and motorbikes. Can’t speak to the motorbikes but I do currently own a new generation Land Rover d130, and it’s the best car I’ve ever had. Makes American SUV’s seem fragile and lackluster…..jeeps especially, just my opinion.

As far as rigby, hh and the rest, they will all be owned by some corporate mass at some point, there is no other way they will survive. I personally feel that in the bolt rifle category you’re better off contracting any one of about half dozen American rifle building masters…..product will just as good if not better than anything out of England and cost half as much. I know it’s personal taste and perception but even if I had a 100 million in the bank I still wouldn’t be spending 200k on a gun.

I recently went through the exercise of pricing out a best grade bolt gun in 8x68 at Westley Richards. The price was about a quarter of what you state. I decided not to move forward as I couldn’t get my head around a bespoke gun with a non-classic grip (I have restricted mobility in my wrist that makes classic grips difficult).

I have three custom rifles made in the US. I don’t disagree with your comment on the quality and value of them. However, I have never seen a US manufactured shotgun that comes remotely close to even a good Birmingham gun let alone London Best.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk, thanks. I think I'll get after acquiring Heym & Merkel & Krieghoff double rifles, then.

Interesting - I just acquired an August Schuler clamshell action (assuming the photos I found online of August Schuler clamshell actions match up to what I've got here) drilling the other week. Condition is rough, with a replacement lever, but it was originally gold-enlaid, high quality engraving, etc. Thought it was a unique little souvenir piece.

View attachment 569862View attachment 569863View attachment 569864View attachment 569865

Interesting piece, but not a clamshell action type. I believe those are called Collath underlever actions.

Please don’t misconstrue my endorsement of modern Heym best guns as investments to translate into an endorsement of best grade merkel and Krieghoff double rifles as investments. You can‘t give the latter away, they sit languishing on this site and all others for years unsold. K20 and K80 best Krieghoff shotguns are a different (better) investment story.

 

[Dukeisok]

As an early millennial (1982) who happens to prefer wood stocks and fine firearms, perhaps the reduction in hunters has a silver lining. Maybe, just maybe, i can pick up some pieces for a song...

 

[Whit]

Interesting piece, but not a clamshell action type. I believe those are called Collath underlever actions.

Please don’t misconstrue my endorsement of modern Heym best guns as investments to translate into an endorsement of best grade merkel and Krieghoff double rifles as investments. You can‘t give the latter away, they sit languishing on this site and all others for years unsold. K20 and K80 best Krieghoff shotguns are a different (better) investment story.

Good to know.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for deals for modern Heym DR's and K20/K80 Kreighoff shotguns.

 

[mowen]

As a younger millennial (29) I think there is certainly going to be a continuing market for high end luxury- but its going to look a lot different. As the euro-american middle class shrinks there's going to be a shrinking demand in the traditional market for these kind of once-in-a-lifetime aspirational purchases and, as others have stated, tastes among 'old money' families are changing as well.

Where there is an appreciation for these items, though, is in 'new money' immigrant families especially, at least from my informal observations, those from Chinese and Arab backgrounds who have an appreciation for traditional western status symbols. Conspicuous consumption on material goods is falling out of fashion amongst young, wealthy whites who would rather spend their money on travel and pumping up their Instagram followers numbers.

 

[Hogpatrol]

As a younger millennial (29) I think there is certainly going to be a continuing market for high end luxury- but its going to look a lot different. As the euro-american middle class shrinks there's going to be a shrinking demand in the traditional market for these kind of once-in-a-lifetime aspirational purchases and, as others have stated, tastes among 'old money' families are changing as well.

Where there is an appreciation for these items, though, is in 'new money' immigrant families especially, at least from my informal observations, those from Chinese and Arab backgrounds who have an appreciation for traditional western status symbols. Conspicuous consumption on material goods is falling out of fashion amongst young, wealthy whites who would rather spend their money on travel and pumping up their Instagram followers numbers.

They're finding out that owning high dollar cars, jewels, guns, boats, homes, etc. only impress those that are broke.

 

[Rare Breed]

completely understand the concept being discussed of fine guns as an investment. having said that i have learned being a hunter, not an investor that my guns are like what i learned about wines…it ultimately is what does your pallet like many times this is far from the highest priced. i am still amazed after owning a beautiful Westley Richards DR, thanks @rookhawk, that it is my relatively far less expensive Merkle DR that i love to hunt with more than my Rigby and custom beautifully gold Mauser

 

[Rare Breed]

completely understand the concept being discussed of fine guns as an investment. having said that i have learned being a hunter, not an investor that my guns are like what i learned about wines…it ultimately is what does your pallet like many times this is far from the highest priced. i am still amazed after owning a beautiful Westley Richards DR, thanks @rookhawk, that it is my relatively far less expensive Merkle DR that i love to hunt with more than my Rigby and custom beautifully gold Mauser

gold engraved mauser. lol!!!

 

[CoElkHunter]

gold engraved mauser. lol!!!

Dang, and here I thought you had a gold plated Mauser, like the AKs and Desert Eagles you see occasionally? I was going to ask for photos? LOL

 

[Siennacoyote]

As an early millennial (1982) who happens to prefer wood stocks and fine firearms, perhaps the reduction in hunters has a silver lining. Maybe, just maybe, i can pick up some pieces for a song...

85 here hoping for the same

 

[Safari Dave]

There seems to be a lot of commentary on here about British cars and motorbikes. Can’t speak to the motorbikes but I do currently own a new generation Land Rover d130, and it’s the best car I’ve ever had. Makes American SUV’s seem fragile and lackluster…..jeeps especially, just my opinion.

As far as rigby, hh and the rest, they will all be owned by some corporate mass at some point, there is no other way they will survive. I personally feel that in the bolt rifle category you’re better off contracting any one of about half dozen American rifle building masters…..product will just as good if not better than anything out of England and cost half as much. I know it’s personal taste and perception but even if I had a 100 million in the bank I still wouldn’t be spending 200k on a gun.

I nearly upchucked into the floor of my Landcruiser when I saw the current "Defenders".


Seriously, are they rugged, tough, off-road vehicles, or should I start looking at Grenadiers?

 

[Ray B]

Since there are posters on this thread familiar with the older double rifles, I have a question. when Rigby was building doubles from before 1900 to WW II, what were the models and grades?

 

[Yvain1180]

Parroting other’s comments, I think the decrease in the collector generation aka Boomers and the lack of interest by people younger than 60 in anything not made of aluminum and plastic will be the biggest factors in this coming change for the fine firearm market. I will say that there are very good reasons for these types of weapons and when I have the money set aside something from BCM will be my first purchase instead of something from H&H or Purdey. That being said, as a 24 year old who day dreams about African rifles, be it a highland stalker or a Mauser 98, I will be more than happy to give all the elder generations’ timeless works a good home. I will not lie and say that I am not looking forward to picking up a Rigby or Purdey for pennies on the dollar compared to recent prices, and that may be distressing for some, but I think most of us are here as we have a sincere love for both the mystique of Africa as well as the exceptional craftsmanship and time spent on all these rifles, the likes of which is only matched by something like Porsche Singer.

 

[Altitude sickness]

The closest thing I’ve seen to a sure thing in buying toys as an Investment. Has been the three generations of Ford GT 40. Everyone knew they would gain value so they were hard to buy.

The 1960s GT40
2005,2006 GT
And the 2018 GT

If you could get one the 60s 1st Gen was $20K now millions many over 10.

2005, 06 were $150K now $350-$500K

2018 were supposed to be $200K but actually sold for $400-&450K and low mileage ones now sell for over $1million

There was a narrow window when a local dealer had two 2005 that were not selling. And could be bought for less than $100K. I wanted one and knew they would increase. But couldn’t justify it.

The service manger bought them both. He now runs the entire large dealership. And has since bought more.