What is the future of the fine firearms market

Isn’t it a strange paradox. The British have made very few quality products. Ever.

British Cars and motorcycles are notoriously unreliable. (Being polite).

Germans, Austrians and Italians on the other hand. All make quality products in a dozen different categories.

But for some reason British rifles are more valuable. Are they better made? Very doubtful, with their manufacturing history. They even used German actions on their best rifles.

Is it that wealthy Brits that brought Birmingham rifles to Africa? And now that is what is considered stylish?
 
Isn’t it a strange paradox. The British have made very few quality products. Ever.

British Cars and motorcycles are notoriously unreliable. (Being polite).

Germans, Austrians and Italians on the other hand. All make quality products in a dozen different categories.

But for some reason British rifles are more valuable. Are they better made? Very doubtful, with their manufacturing history. They even used German actions on their best rifles.

Is it that wealthy Brits that brought Birmingham rifles to Africa? And now that is what is considered stylish?

IMO London Best is the pinnacle of the craft, particularly in shotguns. They say imitation is the greatest form of compliment. If this is true, all other significant makers are very complimentary of the Brits.
 
......motorcycles are notoriously unreliable. (Being polite).

This reminded me of an old joke.

Q. Which is better, a Triumph or a BSA?

A. The one with the smallest puddle of oil under the bike!


That being said I was enthralled by "Jupiter's Travels" and the fact that he made it to 45 countries over four years on a Triumph.
 
This reminded me of an old joke.

Q. Which is better, a Triumph or a BSA?

A. The one with the smallest puddle of oil under the bike!


That being said I was enthralled by "Jupiter's Travels" and the fact that he made it to 45 countries over four years on a Triumph.
British sports cars were fun ... if you enjoyed tinkering. Anything made by British Leyland should have come from the factory with a complete set of tools in the trunk. First thing one should do after driving his new British car off the lot is stop at the parts store and pick up an aftermarket wiring harness. Might not make it home without it. Wiring made in Japan was ten times better than the crap made in England.
 
Isn’t it a strange paradox. The British have made very few quality products. Ever.

British Cars and motorcycles are notoriously unreliable. (Being polite).

Germans, Austrians and Italians on the other hand. All make quality products in a dozen different categories.

But for some reason British rifles are more valuable. Are they better made? Very doubtful, with their manufacturing history. They even used German actions on their best rifles.

Is it that wealthy Brits that brought Birmingham rifles to Africa? And now that is what is considered stylish?


Removing all the quality and hand work from the equation, the credit goes to two middle-class dudes in Birmingham. Mr Anson and Mr Deeley, employed by Westley Richards, invented the Boxlock. That was the workhorse of good guns. Embarrassed to say it, but far more reliable than the H&H 7-pin sidelock of top tier best guns.

When it comes to reliability, a boxlock double rifle, made in Birmingham by W.C. Scott, Webley, or a few other mass-production facilities is the most lasting, quality action you can get. The investment grade potential comes from the fact it was proofed in London and retailed by a "Top Tier" brand that creates the distinguishing value.

Sadly for the Germans, their guild guns in Suhl and Zella Mahlis were never mass marketed under one luxury marquis brand. As a consequence, there is no collector chasing the holy grail gun since they were all made by 50 hands in those towns. Just like British guns, but nobody knows that H&H, Purdey, Woodward, Holland, Grant, Lang, and others farmed out all the production until final engraving and stocking.
 
I just bought an affordable example (to me) 1949 Barchetta. I wanted one for a long time. they’re hard to find, and I probably bought at the peak for prices. But if the slumps coming in a few months. And more come on the market, people will come out of the woodwork for them and I won’t get one. So I bought it even though shipping was high.
What caliber? LOL
 
@CoElkHunter
When you were in your 20s a precusion gun was better than the 2nd hand flint locks.. The model 70 was still in the future.
HA HA HA HA HA
Bob
Bob,
My first rifle at 16yoa was a .444 MARLIN. The tall skinny kid couldn't handle the recoil, so I traded it in on a .270 WINCHESTER M70. I still have the Winchester but would prefer to have Marlin back.
CEH
 
Bob,
My first rifle at 16yoa was a .444 MARLIN. The tall skinny kid couldn't handle the recoil, so I traded it in on a .270 WINCHESTER M70. I still have the Winchester but would prefer to have Marlin back.
CEH
You'd want the Marlin back? Really? You must have flaggelation issues. Counseling might be helpful. :D
 
You'd want the Marlin back? Really? You must have flaggelation issues. Counseling might be helpful. :D
Oh YEAH, I want that Marlin back! In the mid ‘90s here at a gun show, an older gentleman had both the .444 and the .45-70 original Marlins for $400 each. Of course as usual, I had no spare funds at the time to purchase the .444. So now, I’m looking for the same one for the same price. LOL
 
Oh YEAH, I want that Marlin back! In the mid ‘90s here at a gun show, an older gentleman had both the .444 and the .45-70 original Marlins for $400 each. Of course as usual, I had no spare funds at the time to purchase the .444. So now, I’m looking for the same one for the same price. LOL
Actually, now I’m thinking a wildcat .444 Marlin Express with a 2.500” case vs the original 2.225” case with a 25-26” octagonal barrel? Would still fit in a long action receiver. Still working on either a .471 or .532 bolt face as the .444 is an odd .514? The less modifications the better. LOL
 
I'd disagree strongly on the watch comment. I subscribe to a second hand website dealing in fine pieces. Mostly because they do amazing presentation videos of YouTube.

I’ve been constantly deluged with offers and price reduction notices on all the entry level stuff for the past year or so. Rolex, Omega, Panerai etc. Thousands and thousands of dollars in price reductions vs just 9 months ago on all of them.

The more premium stuff like Patek seem to be holding strong for now, I guess because the average buyer of such things is wealthy enough to be somewhat insulated from recession fears and inflationary pressures in a way that the aspirational middle class who'd be in the market for a second hand Rolex are not.

Link: https://www.watchfinder.com/?gad_so...6UjZP3-_QKLBgCVSJnuCz84n5ufJ_RkRoC7xoQAvD_BwE

Cars are seeing a bit of a pull back as well, if only because they market got incredibly frothy during 22. That I think is less likely to continue because just like the Patek comment, people who are willing and able to drop 6 figures on an old Porsche or whatever are again insulated to a degree.
Recent article showed the Patek Phillipe Nautillus down from a high of close to $270K to $120K and the Rolex Daytona from $180k to $96K. I don't live in those neighborhoods...fortunately. Missed out on a Porsche 997 Turbo and Ferrari 458 when both under $70K.
 
Isn’t it a strange paradox. The British have made very few quality products. Ever.

British Cars and motorcycles are notoriously unreliable. (Being polite).

Germans, Austrians and Italians on the other hand. All make quality products in a dozen different categories.

But for some reason British rifles are more valuable. Are they better made? Very doubtful, with their manufacturing history. They even used German actions on their best rifles.

Is it that wealthy Brits that brought Birmingham rifles to Africa? And now that is what is considered stylish?
Rigby...owned by L&O Holdings of Germany
Purdey...owned by Richemont of Switzerland
Holland & Holland...owned by Beretta of Italy
Boss & Co is still privately owned and there are a few other best gun makers that are, but for the most part you are correct.
 
Rigby...owned by L&O Holdings of Germany
Purdey...owned by Richemont of Switzerland
Holland & Holland...owned by Beretta of Italy
Boss & Co is still privately owned and there are a few other best gun makers that are, but for the most part you are correct.

The ownership has nothing to do with the craftsmanship. The craftsmen and women apprentice in the trade. A good friend is an assessor for the company of gunmakers. He is one of the top engravers in the world, apprenticed at H&H in London, now working from a home studio. His is the story of many in the trade.
 
Isn’t it a strange paradox. The British have made very few quality products. Ever.

British Cars and motorcycles are notoriously unreliable. (Being polite).

Germans, Austrians and Italians on the other hand. All make quality products in a dozen different categories.

But for some reason British rifles are more valuable. Are they better made? Very doubtful, with their manufacturing history. They even used German actions on their best rifles.

Is it that wealthy Brits that brought Birmingham rifles to Africa? And now that is what is considered stylish?
I think that's a little unfair really.

Most countries have a sweeping reputation for quality of manufacture, usually based on the products people interact with regularly at the time they form their opinions.

People's opinions on Japanese cars for instance vary from cheap crap to extremely good quality, depending usually on if the first one they experienced was in the 60s or the 2000s. We'll see the same thing with S Korean brands in the next 20 years, and probably a similar shift in the opinion of Indian brands in the next 100.

Britain, as with most countries, has goods they are good at in recent times, and goods that they are bad at in recent times. Cars and bikes, they're bad at, at least since the 50s onward.

Unfortunately, those are also one of the major British branded exports, or have been in the past 70 years and so are the poster children for 'British Manufacturing'. The fact that a Rolls Royce is extremely well made, or a Purdey, or a British built jet engine or an Airbus wing or a ship out of a BAE facility is a little irrelevant, because people don't interact with them in the context of it being a 'British manufactured' thing. They interact with Land Rovers that break down and fall apart.

However, if one looks at say Italy on the same basis of their mass market cars in the same period, then it's hard to argue that they make 'quality products'. Fiat and Alfa Romeo, the last word in reliability and quality, am I right?

But Italy is lucky in that in the modern era they are known for goods that they are good at; clothes, food, wine, art, very premium luxury goods. So their stereotype is 'good quality', at least in markets like the US where their mass market cars aren't sold much (the opinion is rather different in Europe, let me tell you!)

So that's my defense of British manufacturing. National stereotypes are both sweeping generalizations and stereotypes usually formed through a few interactions with a few popular or well known products from that country.

They are highly unlikely to be true for every good from a certain place so we shouldn't judge the quality or value of a specific offering based on where it comes from. Unless of course we can judge the quality of all American manufactured goods on the basis of Apple, Coca-Cola, Ford, McDonald’s, Microsoft and Nike, America's most well known global products...

It's also worth considering that Swiss watches were the lower quality, mass produced 'budget' option for people who couldn't afford to buy British or German or French as little as 200 years ago. How times have changed...

As for if a London best gun is really any better made than a Best gun made elsewhere? Probably not. Both will be made to the highest possible standards within a company that really really cares about quality. If that company is based in London or Ferlach or Liege or even Nankoku is irrelevant if the company culture is the same. London just has a cool history and a stronger brand, which makes them more desirable.
 
So it sounds like I have some affordable fine guns in my future. Something to look forward to as a member of the generation that supposedly only wants ar’s and the like. Can’t afford as many fine guns as I would like yet but being in my lower 30’s we will get there
 
You'd want the Marlin back? Really? You must have flaggelation issues. Counseling might be helpful. :D
@Ontario Hunter
The original Marlin 444 was a well made accurate rifle. The later Remlins were garbage.
Original early model marlins actually command pretty good read high prices.
Bob
 
The ownership has nothing to do with the craftsmanship. The craftsmen and women apprentice in the trade. A good friend is an assessor for the company of gunmakers. He is one of the top engravers in the world, apprenticed at H&H in London, now working from a home studio. His is the story of many in the trade.
I see your point and meant no disrespect. That is to say, I agree with you...and at the same time disagree to some extent.

The bones of a Rigby are made by very fine craftsman & women in Germany before they are shipped off to London. Without those, a Rigby will not be made...much in the same sense that a Mauser is not a Rigby because of the way it is treated once it gets over the Channel. It (currently) takes a partnership to produce these beautiful rifles.

Of course that's not the case for every maker, but these partnerships are in place to keep the H&H's and Purdey's of the London gun world alive and well. Call it a symbiotic relationship because both parties are benefitting from it.
 
I see your point and meant no disrespect. That is to say, I agree with you...and at the same time disagree to some extent.

The bones of a Rigby are made by very fine craftsman & women in Germany before they are shipped off to London. Without those, a Rigby will not be made...much in the same sense that a Mauser is not a Rigby because of the way it is treated once it gets over the Channel. It (currently) takes a partnership to produce these beautiful rifles.

Of course that's not the case for every maker, but these partnerships are in place to keep the H&H's and Purdey's of the London gun world alive and well. Call it a symbiotic relationship because both parties are benefitting from it.

That is not the case for a Rigby ‘best’. What you are describing is the process for a highland stalker or big game. As much as I love mine, it’s a far cry from a London best.
 

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Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
(cont'd)
Rockies museum,
CM Russel museum and lewis and Clark interpretative center
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Grz63 wrote on Werty's profile.
Good Morning,
I plan to visit MT next Sept.
May I ask you to give me your comments; do I forget something ? are my choices worthy ? Thank you in advance
Philippe (France)

Start in Billings, Then visit little big horn battlefield,
MT grizzly encounter,
a hot springs (do you have good spots ?)
Looking to buy a 375 H&H or .416 Rem Mag if anyone has anything they want to let go of
 
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