What do guys consider the ideal weight for a .416?

[IvW]

Very good information! So, definitely a scope then.

As for the .404 Jeffery. I can very easily load any .416 down to the 2150 fps of the .404, so that isn't a problem but I don't like the idea of having to do something to the Rigby to keep the powder against the primer. That makes the .416 Ruger looks especially attractive.

The Ruger Guide gun comes with a thick recoil pad (and boy am I a fan of those!), and adjustable LOP, both good features. At 8.1 pounds, it would come in with a scope at just around 9 pounds. One person said this is much too light, and another said it wasn't uncomfortable for him. The ace in the hole here is the muzzle brake. I hate brakes, but could use it only in practice and replace it with the metal sleeve provided for use in the field. I think that would be okay and with loads duplicating the .404, this seems like a good way to go. The lighter weight would be appreciated if I had to make a long walk for elephant, too, or do the trackers carry your rifle for you?

I've always wanted a Ruger #1, but the heaviness of them has always kept me away (along with the inaccuracy, which can be cured but at some cost and bother), but in this case the weight would be an advantage. But is a single shot a disadvantage when dangerous game hunting? It seems to me this is the one activity where you wouldn't want a single shot. I know John Taylor started out with a single shot against lions, but I'm no John Taylor.

A muzzle break is never a ace in the hole but rather a pain in the a.... on a DG rifle.

Trust me with a 8lb rifle in .416 Ruger you are going to want to use it and it is going to be very unpopular with your PH and trackers.

You do not need a muzzle break on a 404 Jeff that weighs 10-10.5 pounds.

Why buy a .416 of some sort and then download it to 404 Jeff ballistics? Just buy the 404 Jeff and be done with it. It has been an African DG classic since its introduction and is probably the best cartridge for use on buffalo ever designed.

Not a good idea to have the tracker carry your rifle while hunting, his job is to track. A elephant hunt may turn into a buffalo or vice versa, you may miss the trophy of a lifetime if somebody else is carrying your rifle. One of them may however carry your rifle after the hunt and you are headed back to the Land Cruiser.

Nothing wrong with a Ruger number one as a DG rifle, they are reliable and in the right hands have proven to be extremely fast. It does however take commitment and practice to become proficient with a falling block rifle.

The record(speed as well as accuracy) at the Zimbabwe PH proficiency exam is held by Single shot which I believe was a Ruger nr.1 and may well have been chambered in 416 Rigby.

A Ruger nr. 1 chambered for the 450/400 would make for real neat and fun rifle to hunt Buffalo and even Elephant with.

 

[postoak]

I would never use a muzzle brake on a hunt! The idea is to use it on the range only. Recoil on actual game wouldn't even be noticed.

Here in the states, rifles in .404 Jeffery are extremely scarce and carry a considerable price premium. Since I can easily turn a .416 into a .404 with handloads, I don't see the point of getting a .404.

Carrying my own rifle argues for the lighter Ruger bolts, then.

If PHs don't mind the client showing up with a single-action then I may rethink the Ruger #1, as it certainly satisfies the high weight criterion and I've always wanted one.

 

[postoak]

The Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in .416 Rem Mag weighs 9 pounds and with a scope would weigh less than 10 pounds -- a little light according to most here but probably acceptable. The only alternative, for me would be the Ruger Guide Gun with the adjustable LOP and the removable muzzle brake. With scope it would probably weight almost 9 pounds. I suspect the quality of the Winchester is going to be a bit better than the Ruger.

 

[larry4831]

The Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in .416 Rem Mag weighs 9 pounds and with a scope would weigh less than 10 pounds -- a little light according to most here but probably acceptable. The only alternative, for me would be the Ruger Guide Gun with the adjustable LOP and the removable muzzle brake. With scope it would probably weight almost 9 pounds. I suspect the quality of the Winchester is going to be a bit better than the Ruger.

My ruger guide gun 416 weighs empty with a straight 6 power scope 9 lbs 2 oz..... a little on the light side for me.

 

[Shootist43]

Postoak, you can always add a little lead or a Mercury Recoil reducer to a bolt action rifle to add some weight. As long as you mentioned the possibility of purchasing and using a Ruger No. 1 I don't mind sharing some data on a couple that I'm familiar with. My son has a No. 1 in 30 -06 that was fire lapped and bedded and to my knowledge has a stock trigger shoots well under an inch. Mine in 416 Rigby weighs 11.5 lbs. and clover-leafs at a hundred yards. At that weight recoil is very tolerable. I did a google search on No. 1 accuracy and much to my amazement discovered that there have been accuracy issues over the years. I guess I've been lucky in that all of mine have been excellent shooters. FYI my reloads for the 416 Rigby have 8 more Gr. of H 4350 than the loads for my 404 Jeffery.

 

[Milehighshooter]

IVW, one small point on the 416 vs 404. You'd have to download either cartridge to classic levels. The 404 ammo available here in the states runs in the 2300+ range.

As stated, 404 isn't easy to just purchase in the states either, at least for under $3-4000, CZ offers it from their custom shop. Now, if you could find a deal on a CZ550 375, a trip to the rebore shop and you could be in business for under 1500. Same with a Mod 70 375, but you'll have to track down the magazine and follower from a Mod 70 300 RUM.
Or....search out a Mod 70 Classic 300 RUM. Swap barrels, and you're done.

To the OP, M70 416's aren't too hard to find. There are some good deals on Guns International. I see more pop up than Rugers. I think either will be a wash I performance, as you handload. Some people think the single component source of the Ruger (Hornady brass or nothing) to be a downfall. 416 has a leg up on bullets in the 350 Speer magtip. An affordable practice bullet, and good for non-DG use. In 423 there is no cheap bullet, they're all premium.

 

[TOBY458]

I have both the guide gun in 416 Ruger and a Winchester 70 in 416 Rem Mag. The Winchester has a Mcmillan stock. It weighs 8lbs 13 oz unscoped. A small scope and rings adds a pound. So, 9lbs 13oz total. It did indeed weigh 9lbs unscoped, with the original wood stock in place.
The Ruger weighs 7lbs 12oz unscoped. A small scope and rings adds a pound. So, 8lb 12oz total.

 

[postoak]

That is good info Toby. How is the recoil to you on that 9 lb. 13 oz. M70?

 

[TOBY458]

That is good info Toby. How is the recoil to you on that 9 lb. 13 oz. M70?

I find the recoil to be tolerable on both rifles when shooting from sticks. I make it a point to not shoot from a bench, so that keeps the punishment to a minimum. However I do notice that I get a headache if I shoot more than a few times per session. So, I'll usually just shoot 4 or 5 times and move on to other things. The Winchester is definitely the most pleasant of the two rifles when shooting without a brake on the Ruger. And with the 24" barrel of the Winchester, the blast is somewhat less. I think the guide gun is well suited for a lot of walking, and affords almost as much power as the 416 Rem mag in a smaller, shorter package. I feel the comparison is like having a short barrel 308 vs a longer barrel 30/06. Either one works, but the bigger gun is a bit more forgiving.

 

[PaulT]

I really can't believe the gun weight some guys are prepared to carry around on a hunt.

It's obvious from this thread, and many others too, that I am on the "outer" when it comes to rifle weight.

My personal buffalo rifle is a customized M70 chambered for the wildcat .500 MDM Ultra mag which is a true .50 cal on a necked up .375 RUM case.
It spits out .50 cal 450gn brass projectiles at 2450fps and the rifle weighs 8.5lbs.

I am certainly no superman and probably practice shoot mine A LOT less than most of you here do, and yet I have no problems shooting (accurately) this rifle.
I have stopped many wounded departing animals with it as well as a few in-comings !
I have also delivered the coup-de-gras to quite a few buff one handed with a shot to the spine or brain-pan with little consiquence.
Didn't break my hand, wrist, shoulder or anything.

I remember hunting with a couple from the U.S one day.
The wife was an avid wildlife photographer.
We arrived at a billabong covered in waterfowl that she wished to record, which for a while she did.
I then asked if she wished to have some pics of them all on the wing which she replied she did, so after I was sure she was prepared I fired a one handed shot "over-the-bow" of several thousand waterfowl which she then photographed.

Not stating what I am stating for egotistical purposes, I just HATE heavy rifles and just don't see the point in carrying around a boat anchor.
I do A LOT of walking.

Over the years I've had .375's and .458 Lotts all coming in at well under the 9lb finished weight and still have a functional shoulder and no flinch whatsoever.

I actually sold my .500 double when I just got sick and tired of carrying its excessive weight around all the time.

A lot of DG hunts require days and days and miles and miles of relentless tracking and walking and CARRYING that 11lb behemoth.
If you can handle that and on the tenth day after 40 miles of tracking in excessive heat, raise that truck axle to your shoulders and hold it steady enough for an accurate shot on a dangerous animal then good luck to you.

 

[PeteG]

@PaulT, there seem to be few on here that like lighter weight rifles.
My standard cz 416Rigby is (4.4kg) 9 1/2lbs unscoped and unloaded and it is heavier than i'd like.
I reckon it could easily be 9lbs or just under to be more comfortable to carry.

The weight sure does help with the recoil, but if a good stock fit means you can easily drop 1lb or more off the rifle, then its worth the extra work and money involved especiall if you're planning a lot of walking and hunting with it.

 

[CTDolan]

I've got a Guide Gun in 416 Ruger. I shoot open sights, no brake. The weight is around 8 pounds and I like it as it's a joy to carry and, in my experience, entirely manageable in the recoil department.

I've owned/shot everything up to a 460 Weatherby but, as I've grown older, a less weighty hammer has definitely become a preference.

 

[PaulT]

Looks like CTDolan has it all worked out !

PeteG, a few years back I had a CZ 550 in .458 Lott.
From the factory it was like a club.
At the end of my first season with it I took it home took several specific location dimensions and set to it by first removing the factory stock finish then slowly removing wood by hand sanding in equal amounts on opposing sides and regularly checking against the initial measurements.
I ended up taking A LOT of material off of it and in the end it handled and pointed like a familiar shotgun.
I had a talented stock-maker replace the checking and it came-up shmick and weighed just over 8.5lbs.

I shot A LOT of buffalo with that gun until I sold it to a mate who is still using it as his primary back-up gun on guided buffalo hunts.

The CZ 550 is a great platform but I find it needs a lot of "personalizing" to get it just right.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Looks like CTDolan has it all worked out !

PeteG, a few years back I had a CZ 550 in .458 Lott.
From the factory it was like a club.
At the end of my first season with it I took it home took several specific location dimensions and set to it by first removing the factory stock finish then slowly removing wood by hand sanding in equal amounts on opposing sides and regularly checking against the initial measurements.
I ended up taking A LOT of material off of it and in the end it handled and pointed like a familiar shotgun.
I had a talented stock-maker replace the checking and it came-up shmick and weighed just over 8.5lbs.

I shot A LOT of buffalo with that gun until I sold it to a mate who is still using it as his primary back-up gun on guided buffalo hunts.

The CZ 550 is a great platform but I find it needs a lot of "personalizing" to get it just right.

The more you carry a short barreled B&M, the more it grows on you don't it?

 

[CTDolan]

@PaulT , the only thing I haven’t worked out is that my eyes have aged to the point where I’m going to need to seriously consider a scope for certain situations. My father shot well (extremely well) with open sights right up to the end of his hunting career (he was one of those rare, gifted shooters...running, standing, close, far, it never mattered...always a hit and always right where it belonged). Me? Not as dependable, that way.

 

[PaulT]

@PaulT , the only thing I haven’t worked out is that my eyes have aged to the point where I’m going to need to seriously consider a scope for certain situations. My father shot well (extremely well) with open sights right up to the end of his hunting career (he was one of those rare, gifted shooters...running, standing, close, far, it never mattered...always a hit and always right where it belonged). Me? Not as dependable, that way.

I'm in the same boat as you.
12 years of working as a buffalo guide in the Tropical North of Australia has had a severe impact on both my eye-sight and skin.

I am not quite at the point of having to rely on some type of scope or sighting aid but not far off.

In 2017 I managed to shoot a several buff between 35 and 70yds and did o.k but the front sight is beginning to disappear on me.

I now require reading glasses to see text at close range.

The hands of time (and a misspent youth) are catching up, and the marks from the Hammer of Old Man Time are beginning to show !!!

 

[Dr Ray]

I used a Weatherby 460 magnum w a Khahles scope. I think it weighed 11-12 lbs. Mind you the recoil is almost two times that of the 416.
I would suggest something up around the 10 lb mark.

 

[PeteG]

Looks like CTDolan has it all worked out !

PeteG, a few years back I had a CZ 550 in .458 Lott.
From the factory it was like a club.
At the end of my first season with it I took it home took several specific location dimensions and set to it by first removing the factory stock finish then slowly removing wood by hand sanding in equal amounts on opposing sides and regularly checking against the initial measurements.
I ended up taking A LOT of material off of it and in the end it handled and pointed like a familiar shotgun.
I had a talented stock-maker replace the checking and it came-up shmick and weighed just over 8.5lbs.

I shot A LOT of buffalo with that gun until I sold it to a mate who is still using it as his primary back-up gun on guided buffalo hunts.

The CZ 550 is a great platform but I find it needs a lot of "personalizing" to get it just right.

You're right on about the personalizing.
I removed the factory finish on the stock and redid that myself a few years ago, its now a much nicer matt finish.
I did work on the feed ramp, now it will feed anything and everything ive put through it.
I polished the rails and cleaned up all the rough edges so that it cycles as smooth as anything ive seen.
I worked on the magazine well by cleaning up the edges and chamfering the back edge where the follower and spring were catching.
Just recently filed down the standard sight to a more shallow v express and added bright yellow luminous paint to the front bead.
Still weighs too much, but until i build up the nerve to shave the stock down or have one built it'll have to do.

 

[PaulT]

Pete, I am certainly NO stockmaker, let me clear that up from the start, but I, and quite a few other shooters with many years of field experience behind them who have seen it, say that I managed quite an adequate stock up-grade on the CZ by simply stocking to a plan.

Creating a drawing of your stock, noting specific measurement points and recording those points before you start gives you a benchmark. Regularly measuring as you go and removing evenly and equally on opposing sides is important and not difficult if you take your time and proceed carefully.

I assure you that if a numb-nuts like me can do it ANYONE can do it with some sandpaper, patience and time.

Heck, if I was in Zambia and you trusted me I enjoyed the experience so much i'd offer to do you rifle myself.
Lots of satisfaction in pulling off a difficult shot with a rifle that handles just as you meant it to.

Do it Bro !

 

[PeteG]

...patience and time...

Therein lies the real challenge...
I will give it some more thought and see...
Might drop you a message or two before hand if i have any questions.