What bullet for my 404 Jeffery

[Rule 303]

The softs in 570 gr 500 Jeff overexpand at 2300+fps and are only good for hunting lion. Not recommended for buffalo. Stopping them anyway, they may be ok for broadside initial shots but not for back-up.

We are talking for the 404J

The max recommended impact speed for the 570grain 500J is 2200fps.

 

[Bos Javanicus]

I'm not surprised if they over expand at that speed, they are only designed for between 1,800 & 2,200fps. I'd like to see how they go on something like a lion. At 2,300fps + they should be pretty impressive.
Woodleigh's work very well inside their designed parameters.

 

[IvW]

We are talking for the 404J

The max recommended impact speed for the 570grain 500J is 2200fps.

With modern powders and the case capacity, you can easily load the 404 Jeff to 2400 fps. I have found that the best results on DG are with speeds from 2200-2400 fps with about 2300 fps being the sweet spot.

The heavy for caliber Woodleighs in the big bores work well(eg. Norma PH range) and as you mention at max velocity of 2200 Fps.

The standard weight Woodleighs also work wonders in the big NE calibers and at those velocities but not at 2300+ fps.

I prefer to load my bigger bores 9.3 x 74R, 375 H&H, 404 Jeff and 500 Jeff to 2300-2350 fps as I have found this gives the best results when needing to stop DG when things do not go according to plan. Sadly the Woodleighs do not perform so well at these velocities and I cannot recommend them as stopping bullets in the SP.

 

[IvW]

I'm not surprised if they over expand at that speed, they are only designed for between 1,800 & 2,200fps. I'd like to see how they go on something like a lion. At 2,300fps + they should be pretty impressive.
Woodleigh's work very well inside their designed parameters.

They are pretty impressive on cats when pushed on velocity. I would not exceed 2350 fps when following up on wounded lion though, they can be very hard to put down on a full charge. You will be surprised how muscular the chest of a full grown male lion is. For Lioness and leopard in the appropriate caliber they might just be perfect.

The only problem comes that it is not practical to have one bullet and load for cat's, another soft nose bullet for buffalo and then also a load with solids when doing back-up or guiding work. Just too much so I prefer a premium grade soft and then a monometal, Meplat solid.

 

[Rule 303]

With modern powders and the case capacity, you can easily load the 404 Jeff to 2400 fps. I have found that the best results on DG are with speeds from 2200-2400 fps with about 2300 fps being the sweet spot.

The heavy for caliber Woodleighs in the big bores work well(eg. Norma PH range) and as you mention at max velocity of 2200 Fps.

The standard weight Woodleighs also work wonders in the big NE calibers and at those velocities but not at 2300+ fps.

I prefer to load my bigger bores 9.3 x 74R, 375 H&H, 404 Jeff and 500 Jeff to 2300-2350 fps as I have found this gives the best results when needing to stop DG when things do not go according to plan. Sadly the Woodleighs do not perform so well at these velocities and I cannot recommend them as stopping bullets in the SP.

I think you need to visit the Woodleigh web site. Different calibre and bullet weights have different recommended impact velocities. The 400 grain Weldcores for the 404J have a max recommended impact velocity of 2400fps, the 450 grain 2300fps, the 350 grain is 2600fps.

 

[IvW]

I think you need to visit the Woodleigh web site. Different calibre and bullet weights have different recommended impact velocities. The 400 grain Weldcores for the 404J have a max recommended impact velocity of 2400fps, the 450 grain 2300fps, the 350 grain is 2600fps.

I do not base my comments on assumptions from what I read on websites but rather on practical experience in the field on DG African animals.

Woodleigh would not be my first choice unless you are using a double rifle, which I don't.

I need 100% performance from my chosen calibers when backing up and hunting DG and Woodleigh does not make the grade for me. They are just too soft.

 

[Rule 303]

I do not base my comments on assumptions from what I read on websites but rather on practical experience in the field on DG African animals.

Woodleigh would not be my first choice unless you are using a double rifle, which I don't.

I need 100% performance from my chosen calibers when backing up and hunting DG and Woodleigh does not make the grade for me. They are just too soft.

Well if you push them harder than what they say what do you expect. I have never had your stated problem with the various calibres I use in the Woodleigh bullets. I have found the opposite with their 358cal protected Points. I do note that has only occurred in one calibre and I do not expect that to be case across the board. Please explain how firing a bullet from a double rifle at a given muzzle velocity results in different terminal effect to shooting it from a bolt rifle.

Woodleigh do field test their bullets on various game, including Cape Buffalo and Elephant and not just one or two examples, so their recommended impact velocities are from actual experience. Not many do that.

I do appreciate they are not every bodies cup of tea.

 

[IvW]

Well if you push them harder than what they say what do you expect. I have never had your stated problem with the various calibres I use in the Woodleigh bullets. I have found the opposite with their 358cal protected Points. I do note that has only occurred in one calibre and I do not expect that to be case across the board. Please explain how firing a bullet from a double rifle at a given muzzle velocity results in different terminal effect to shooting it from a bolt rifle.

Woodleigh do field test their bullets on various game, including Cape Buffalo and Elephant and not just one or two examples, so their recommended impact velocities are from actual experience. Not many do that.

I do appreciate they are not every bodies cup of tea.

Doubles are typically loaded from 1900-2100 fps which seems to fit nicely in their recommended velocities of 1800-2200 fps.

And as you rightfully state, as did I, that at higher velocities they do not perform.

I never mentioned they would perform differently at the same velocities from a double to a bolt. What I did say is that at my preferred speed of 2300-2350 fps they overexpand and do not perform and I therefore do not use them. I need a soft nose/expanding bullet to give controlled expansion and maximum penetration at these velocities and the Woodleighs fall short.

They perform well in double rifles due to the lower velocity(would not use them in the 500/416 though).

The heavy for caliber bullets seem to work better(due to reduced velocity and heavier bullet/more material). I have not bothered to test them as since I switched to Rhino solid shank bullet's, have found the ultimate expanding bullet readily available, that works every time I pull the trigger.

I have however had the normal weight ones over expand not only at higher velocities but also when hitting solid bone. This from a 500 NE that hit the point of the shoulder on a buffalo bull and failed to enter the chest cavity. Another failed to penetrate the chest cavity from the point of the shoulder on a giraffe bull. The 500 NE is one of the best penetrating double calibers available.

There is a big difference in field testing bullet's in a normal hunting situation as opposed to having to take shots at DG in a charge have to stop situation.

I would gladly use Woodleigh soft points if I was the hunter taking the first shot and placing it correctly. I would however not use them in my bolt actions as back-up when following up DG.

They are great bullets and probably the best ones you can use in a double.

Agreed they are not everybodies cup of tea, not mine for sure.

If used within their specifications(which in my opinion is double rifle's), they work but for DG at velocities over 2200 Fps(which would be basically all the popular DG bolt actions), they are not the best option.

I would be hesitant to use the 400gr SN in the 404 Jeff @ 2400 fps even though the recommended velocity is 1900-2400 fps.

There are better consistent performing options available.

 

[Shootist43]

IvW, again you are laying your expertise on the line. Thanks for doing so. While individual experiences may be different from yours because of distances, shot angles, bones hit or not hit etc. I believe your collective experience both from your client's shots and your back-up shots is the advice to be followed. Only on AH can a discussion like this be had. This thread as I had hoped is sorting out the differences between the good, better and best bullets available for a specific task.

 

[IvW]

IvW, again you are laying your expertise on the line. Thanks for doing so. While individual experiences may be different from yours because of distances, shot angles, bones hit or not hit etc. I believe your collective experience both from your client's shots and your back-up shots is the advice to be followed. Only on AH can a discussion like this be had. This thread as I had hoped is sorting out the differences between the good, better and best bullets available for a specific task.

You are welcome. I just try to share what I have found from my experiences.

You make a very valid point with regards to client's and PH's needs.

Certain bullets may be suitable for use by a client taking the initial shot but not for a PH who may not have the luxury of picking his shot, he many times has to take whatever shot he can get and rely on the hardware he chooses to get the job done.

Not sure if I am permitted to post links to other websites but this is very interesting and could be of benefit to people on the sight planning to hunt DG in Africa. Below are a few examples of catastrophic failures with bullets for those interested and who have not had the opportunity to use them. This may help in your decision making.

Some shocking results from Swift A-frame as well which is regarded as a top notch bullet. Never seen Swifts do what they do here in the field myself though.

http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?p=71

 

[Gert Odendaal]

It seems North Fork bullets is preferred by knowledgeable dangerous game hunters. Dr. Kevin Robertson , Pieter Nel and Gawie Lindeque who conducted the Buffalo hunting course for us are firm believers in the North Fork bullet. I have only read/hear great , positive feedback regarding the use of the North Fork bullets. Using it in a 404 Jeffery in a 450 gn bullets will be the perfect dangerous game hunting system I believe...

 

[Royal27]

It seems North Fork bullets is preferred by knowledgeable dangerous game hunters. Dr. Kevin Robertson , Pieter Nel and Gawie Lindeque who conducted the Buffalo hunting course for us are firm believers in the North Fork bullet. I have only read/hear great , positive feedback regarding the use of the North Fork bullets. Using it in a 404 Jeffery in a 450 gn bullets will be the perfect dangerous game hunting system I believe...

@Gert Odendaal ,

Do you know Dr. Robertson's ( @doctari505 ) opinion on the NF solid, for elephant in particular?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

It seems North Fork bullets is preferred by knowledgeable dangerous game hunters. Dr. Kevin Robertson , Pieter Nel and Gawie Lindeque who conducted the Buffalo hunting course for us are firm believers in the North Fork bullet. I have only read/hear great , positive feedback regarding the use of the North Fork bullets. Using it in a 404 Jeffery in a 450 gn bullets will be the perfect dangerous game hunting system I believe...

Looks like 430gr is about as heavy as you'll get in the .404J from NF. Should be more than plenty for a buff.

http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/products/bullets/premium-bonded-core/?bweight=5

 

[Rule 303]

IvW I do not have the experience you do and as far as Woodleigh's go I do not have any hesitation in using them in the 358Calibre Protected Points at higher than recommended impact velocities-from experience.
In 416 calibre I have not found any failures when shooting camels through the front legs, or raking shots from slightly off set to one side from the rear, held together well. I estimate impact velocities ranged from 2400 down to 2200 fps. Their Hydros although a solid turned bullet work better than conventional solids and not quite as good as a soft point when you need a soft point but they do work well.

I cannot speak from my own experience with other calibres, however I do know a few that have used them on Water Buffalo here in Aust and on some cape Buff. One in particular has not experienced problems with the 400 grain projectiles from his 404 J.

I do know Woodleigh now make a tougher 300grain 375 bullet to with stand higher impact velocities because of problems you mention.

Good to know about the Rhino bullets. Like anything man makes some will fail from time to time for what ever reason. Yes you do need to find bullets that do not make a habit of this.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

@Gert Odendaal ,

Do you know Dr. Robertson's ( @doctari505 ) opinion on the NF solid, for elephant in particular?

Dr. Robertson, specifically mentioned the preferred use of the North Fork core bonded bullets in his 505 Gibbs. He pointed out to us that the solid they prefer is the Dzombo solid ....as well as the flat cup point solid North Fork bullets...
Since this is a technical question regarding the North Fork bullets I suggest you contact Dr. Kevin Robertson via his email... Dr. Kevin Robertson is an extremely knowledgeable hunter/PH/scientist , a person who really like to share his knowledge with any one who cares to ask...
krobertson@sawc.org.za