What bullet for my 404 Jeffery

[IvW]

Barnes TSX would not be my first choice.

 

[Art Lambart II]

What ever bullet you pick load a lot of them so I don't have to.

 

[ve7poi]

I used Barnes TSX to take my buff no question it worked perfectly

 

[IvW]

I used Barnes TSX to take my buff no question it worked perfectly

1 Buff does not quantify a good bullet performance. Sure, they work and they will work most of the time, but I have seen too many failures/inconsistancies with them.

I have taken many buff with clients and also had to sort out situations with charging or disappearing buff on more than one occasion. In order to do this reliably every time I need a bullet I can rely on every time, unfortunately it is not a Barnes TSX.

Barnes TSX would not be my first choice.

 

[ve7poi]

Maybe one buff 20 yds and an eland at 200 meters same rifle same bullet 400 gr TSX but I've used Barnes bullets now for going on 20 years and I can count on one hand the number of animals that required a second shot, five trips to Africa plus bear, hogs, moose, deer ,elk ,coyote, wolves,beaver,cats so not just one shot but a lifetime of hunting and TTSX or TSX have performed as advertised every time no failures. From 500 Jeffery, 470 NE, 458lott, 458win mag, 9.3 x 66, 9.3 x 62,9.3x74, 338/06, 338Federal, 30-06, 308, 6.8 spc, 270 win, 25-06, 260 Rem, 243 win, and various others over time.
I reload all my ammo and have going on close to fourty years now. They work for me.

 

[Art Lambart II]

1 Buff does not quantify a good bullet performance. Sure, they work and they will work most of the time, but I have seen too many failures/inconsistancies with them.

I have taken many buff with clients and also had to sort out situations with charging or disappearing buff on more than one occasion. In order to do this reliably every time I need a bullet I can rely on every time, unfortunately it is not a Barnes TSX.

Barnes TSX would not be my first choice.

@IvW What bullet would you recommend your hunters use for Buff?

 

[Shootist43]

I don't mean to speak for IvW, but in a previous post he recommended Rhino bullets. DWB's photos of bullets used on buffalo also show the Rhino to be a better performer. Yesterday I spent a little time trying to find a supplier that handles them in the States. So far, no luck.

 

[Art Lambart II]

@IvW from your earlier post you recommended the Rhino solid shank bullet, after some research it looks like the Rhino solid shank is a old "Trophy Bonded Bear Claw". The TBBC is a well respected bullet, I expect the "Rhino Solid Shank" would preform just like the TBBC.

 

[fourfive8]

Maybe one buff 20 yds and an eland at 200 meters same rifle same bullet 400 gr TSX but I've used Barnes bullets now for going on 20 years and I can count on one hand the number of animals that required a second shot, five trips to Africa plus bear, hogs, moose, deer ,elk ,coyote, wolves,beaver,cats so not just one shot but a lifetime of hunting and TTSX or TSX have performed as advertised every time no failures. From 500 Jeffery, 470 NE, 458lott, 458win mag, 9.3 x 66, 9.3 x 62,9.3x74, 338/06, 338Federal, 30-06, 308, 6.8 spc, 270 win, 25-06, 260 Rem, 243 win, and various others over time.
I reload all my ammo and have going on close to fourty years now. They work for me.

Agreed- similar experiences here.

I've been witness to a whole lot of difference caliber/bullet type performance by many different people over the years- yielding both good and not so good results. Two things stand out relating to cleanly killing game (or not)... 1)shot placement and 2)failure of frangible bullets. My experience shows the TSX to be a very good, consistent big game bullet.

Also, generally I believe the larger the caliber and mass of a bullet, the more forgiving of any weaknesses of its design. Examples-- a fairly common "magnum" propelling a 25-28 caliber bullet to really high velocity at impact had better be well designed or it will readily show weaknesses or failures. A 45-50 caliber bullet impacting at a common and modest velocity will tend to show good results even though its design may be relatively "weak".

 

[IvW]

@IvW What bullet would you recommend your hunters use for Buff?

To start with I am an old school hunter and have always been an advocate of heavy for caliber bullets irrespective of caliber used. They just perform better. They stay on course better(through brush and after hitting the buff), they penetrate better, they expand to a bigger diameter after impact as there is more bullet to do so). Typically 2.5 x diameter with the Rhino bullet.

You typically get two thoughts on this. Lighter higher velocity bullets and then slower heavy bullets at reasonable velocity(2200-2400 fps).

Firstly I would only recommend clients to use premium grade soft/controlled expansion bullets and no solids on buffalo.

I also prefer non monometal softs and also do not like the new "fragmenting" types.

Availability of bullets will obviously be an issue as all bullets are not available in all countries.

My recommendation in order of preference for bolt actions would be:

Rhino controlled expansion soft, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or Swift A-frame.

Bullet weights:

375 H&H-Min 300gr @ 2400 fps better 350gr @ 2300 fps or even the 380gr @ 2200 if it stabilizes and you have no pressure signs in your rifle.

416 Rigby- 400gr @ 2400, better 450gr @ 2250-2300 fps.

404 Jeff- min 400gr @ 2300, better 450gr @ 2200-2300 fps.

458-min 500gr @ 2300, better 550gr @ 2200-2300 fps. (Have to add here that I do not like the 458 Win and also not the other 458 calibers that have straight wall cases and belts). In this group I only like the 450 Rigby or the 458 Sabi.

505 Gibbs- 550-600grn @ 2300 fps.

500 JEFF- 570 grn @ 2350 fps-this is what I use for hard skin DG hunting.

Double rifles:

If your double regulates and is safe to shoot with above mentioned bullets I would go with the same. They rarely do and the best bullet to use in a double would be a Woodleigh bonded one.

The lower velocities of the big NE cartridges compliment the softer design of the Woodleigh very well and they therefore perform as designed @ these lower velocities.

Let me elaborate on why Barnes TSX would not be my first choice (for DG) hunting.

Many speak highly of the Barnes TSX and as seen here many report good results with them over a large range of calibers and species hunted. Yes they work and they work better at higher velocities on softer game. They do not work so well on hard skinned game at slower velocities.

Issues and below par performance I have seen or experienced with them are:

1. Being of monometal design they are typically longer than conventional/lead containing bullets of the same weight. This is fine if you use a rifle and caliber with a long enough magazine and action. Bullets can then be seated forward to not reduce case capacity and keep pressures down. This problem is compounded when using them in Magnum cartridges built on standard length actions. High pressures are the main cause of stuck cases/rifle jams while hunting in higher temperature areas.

2. Monometal bullets cause more friction in the barrel and also create more pressure than conventional bullets. Moly Coating helps but TSX are not coated.

3. Monometal bullets(especially copper cause more fouling in the barrel again increasing operating pressures.

4. They are spitzer shape with a slight boat tail, great for long range shooting but not great for close up work in heavy cover. Spitzer designs deflect much easier than more conventional designs. All shots taken will not always be "the perfect shot".

5. The spitzer shape is more prone to deflecting and veering off course after hitting the target.

6. The overall design is of rear weight design(the back is heavier than the front). If the bullet only partially expands(seen this on a few occasions), the rear being heavier and carrying more momentum than the front of the bullet wants to overtake the front and the bullet has no option but to tumble. This severely affects the bullet performance and straight line penetration.

7. Unreliable expansion. They often do not expand or do not expand properly. This again severely affects the performance of the bullet. If it does not expand it tends to over penetrate and exit which can lead to problems if you wound another buff behind the one being shot at.

8. I know the main animal discussed is buff but they are too soft for some applications and too hard for others. They are too hard for cats and too soft when hitting hard shoulder bones eg. shoulder on buff. This again causes either insufficient expansion(vital when hunting cats) or they loose petals when encountering hard bone which defeats the object. I need a soft to punch through, retain the petals and destroy the vitals behind the heavy bone and then settle under the skin on the opposite side.

9. A proper expanding bullet will typically expand to 2.5 x diameter and retain it's petals. The monometal expanders do not achieve this, if they expand as designed you are lucky to get 2 x expansion, most times much less.

For DG back-up you need a bullet that will perform as designed every time you need it to, the ones I have mentioned do so and the one that has been most consistent and devastating for me has been the Rhino.

 

[IvW]

@IvW from your earlier post you recommended the Rhino solid shank bullet, after some research it looks like the Rhino solid shank is a old "Trophy Bonded Bear Claw". The TBBC is a well respected bullet, I expect the "Rhino Solid Shank" would preform just like the TBBC.

Yes the TBBC is an excellent bullet for DG and use in the 404 Jeff.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

IvW, thank you very much, this is the most informative post I have read in a long time. Knowledge gain through experience/practice in the real bush set up like you do your hunting is extremely valuable for a novice like me regarding bullets on dangerous game animals at close quarters hunting practices. I noticed you have an affinity for the 404 Jeffery? Why would you like the 404 Jeffery as a dangerous game close up work rifle?

 

[IvW]

IvW, thank you very much, this is the most informative post I have read in a long time. Knowledge gain through experience/practice in the real bush set up like you do your hunting is extremely valuable for a novice like me regarding bullets on dangerous game animals at close quarters hunting practices. I noticed you have an affinity for the 404 Jeffery? Why would you like the 404 Jeffery as a dangerous game close up work rifle?

With regards to the 404 Jeff.

Apart from the fact that it has historically probably killed more DG in Africa than any other caliber, it is one of those perfect combinations that make a lot of sense for use on DG.

Let's start with the case design. Long neck, good taper, no belt and more than enough case capacity to push up to 450 grn bullet at the right velocity. This velocity in my experience is 2300 fps give or take 100 fps no more no less is required. A re-loaders dream cartridge.

If we compare the 404 Jeff to the 416 Rigby(also an exceptional cartridge) we find that although the 416 Rigby has larger case capacity, the 404 Jeff case is a more efficient case. Meaning we can achieve the same velocity with less power(up to the ideal 2300 fps level).

Due to this the 404 Jeff produces less recoil(felt) than the Rigby. This is very important as it simply boils down to less recoil, better shooting.

Recovery time after the first shot is also less due to this which under tight circumstance could mean stopping the animal or not.

You can fit one extra round in the magazine as opposed to the Rigby.

The slightly bigger diameter bullet also makes a bigger hole than the 416.

It has been a long known fact that the 450/400 has been regarded as the perfect cartridge for a double rifle in particular for buffalo. The same can be said of the 404 Jeff in bolt action.

The difference in shooting any animal in the same place with a 375 H&H as opposed to a 404 Jeff is substantial in favour of the 404 Jeff.

It is just one of those magical combinations that outperform their paper ballistics.

It is the best choice for a visiting client who is hunting DG and if more clients where to use the 404 Jeff instead of some of the smaller calibers or some or other high velocity magnum it would be a much more pleasant experience allround.

Unless Elephant makes out a large part of one's hunting as a PH, the 404 Jeff would be a very good choice as a back-up rifle. If more Elephant are involved, the bigger brother 500 Jeff get's my nod as the perfect bolt action for back-up.

Thankfully of late there has been a huge interest in the 404 Jeff, which is a good thing.

Good hunting, you will never regret using a 404 Jeff, it's effectiveness in the field cannot be doubted.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

IvW, thank you kindly, your explanation is greatly appreciated it think all round by all 404 Jeffery owners , since we have a great old classic caliber , which I myself, this is regards to my own opinion , perceive the 404 Jeffery as the perfect all purpose hunting rifle for the hunting I am doing and might still do ...Hunting from a duiker to an elephant...

 

[Shootist43]

IvW, THANK YOU!!! Your posts on this topic are insightful to say the least. I for one both love and demand reasoned answers to my questions. Opinions(without support) seldom carry the day in my book. I had not considered the Rhino Bullet previously but now I am trying to find out where they can be purchased in the States.

 

[tarbe]

lvW

During my one and only trip across the water I used the 180gr TTSX on over dozen animals from Jackal to Eland with perfect results.

I drove them fast, and they expanded on the Jackal (kinda tore him up) and gave me a pass-through both shoulders of an Eland.

Recently I have been discussing Buffalo bullets with a very seasoned PH in Zimbabwe...a man I am planning to hunt with.

His STRONG recommendation mirrors yours to a T.

I plan to follow his (and your) recommendations.

"Trust your PH"


Regards,

Tim

 

[Art Lambart II]

@IvW thanks so much for your advice on DG bullets, what are your thoughts on a Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby as a clients DG rifle.

 

[IvW]

@IvW thanks so much for your advice on DG bullets, what are your thoughts on a Ruger #1 in 416 Rigby as a clients DG rifle.

The Ruger #1 is a great rifle. The 416 Rigby is a great African cartridge and in the right hands can kill all DG in Africa.

I have no issues wishing to use a falling block rifle on a DG hunt. The trick is to practice reloading. This can be done very efficiently but takes a lot of practice. Make yourself a dummy round and then start with a shell in the chamber. I have seen a guy who had cartridge holder on his right shoulder that held 4 rounds he cycles the action with his right hand and reloads from there in one smooth motion.

Just a reminder that the all time record(time and accuracy) on the Zimbabwe PH proficiency exam is held by a Ruger #1 and I believe it was a 416 Rigby!

The main thing I like about a single shot rifle is that it tends to make the shooter shoot better for some reason, possibly because he knows he needs to make the first shot count. All the clients I have guided using falling blocks new how to use them, some were a bit slow on the reload but they could shoot and that is all you need, a good first shot, nothing more nothing less.

Use that single shot you have, practice a lot and you will be just fine.

 

[tarbe]

Lol - as a 42 year user of the No. 1 platform I am once again going to say "me too"!

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I did mentioned in the tread about the Buffalo hunting course some of our members attended , one member took a Ruger nr1 in a .375 caliber with. Dr. Kevin Robinson view that rifle as an excellent dangerous game rifle for buffalo. He mentioned the same type of method where the owner of a Ruger nr 1 had his rounds stored on his left shoulder and just plug the rounds from the shoulder when fast reloading ....