Understanding The Barnes TSX Controversy

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Maybe I did not really understand what it was about, but what is important, and that not just for the Barnes bullets, is the impact velocity and not the muzzle velocity. It is sure that so higher the muzzle velocity and so longer the distance you can shoot in order to still have sufficient impact velocity. In the case of the Barnes bullets, to achieve a maximum expansion, the impact velocity is on an average between 1800 and 2000 fps, which is still relatively high and is certainly, depending on the shooting distance, a limiting factor for full expansion of the TSX bullets if the muzzle velocity of a rifle is barely above 2000 fps.

@grand veneur
That's why I like them in my 25.
They don't go below 2000fps till after over 600yards and I NEVER shoot anywhere near that.
Try to keep my shots at 200 or less prefer less. So still travelling at 3,000fps or there abouts
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

In my simple mind, I think about the hardness/softness of the copper, annealing, size and depth of the hollow point per caliber, bullet weight, and velocity.

Velocity, as expressed in ft/lbs muzzle energy, (not my primary consideration), but in this mathematical computation, with muzzle velocity squared, indicates more effective bullet expansion. It's the .270 Winchester effect from 1923, that works better on thin skinned game.
But I still prefer a 30-06 200 grain, or .35 Whelen 250 grain for effect.

@Hunter-Habib pictures and descriptions show, big difference in a lighter bullet (300 grain .375, 47% lighter than a 570 grain .510 bullet), but with 18.6% more muzzle velocity.
It's just math, but some engineering is well explained by math.

As for me, I have 2 boxes of .358, Barnes 225 grain TSX, that my gunsmith gave me, going to load them up at max velocity, (2600 fps) .030 off the lands. for my three .35 Whelen rifles. He told me they work on game, every time.

@cajunchefray
Where's your sense of adventure mate. 2,600 fps for a 225 gn out of the Whelen is just starting to warm up
Just load them to a proper speed that the where they belong in the Whelen 2,900 fps then have a bucket of fun.
You will notice a big difference in hitting power and range capabilities.
Be brave my son, have another poboy and think about it then go ahead and stoke it up where it belongs
I load a 220 gn atomic 29 similar to the Barnes to 2,880 fps. Holy snappin duck shit batman that flattens hogs.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

It is twist rate.

This is a quote from Steve at Hammer bullets.

"We learned this when we first started impact testing bullets in the beginning of marketing Hammers. We were low velocity testing to confirm proper performance at 1800 fps. Launched a bullet at 1800 fps and recovered it looking like it could be loaded again. The only distortion was engraving from the rifling. Very disappointing as this is our advertised min. We decided to increase the vel to find out the min for this particular bullet, but could not get any more powder in the case. We had another rifle of the same caliber with a larger case so we grabbed it. First launch was right at 1800 fps. I remember thinking " That was a wasted shot". Went and dug the bullet out of the media to find a perfectly deformed shank. Hmmm... The only diff was barrel twist. Lots of lightbulbs went on at that moment. Ran the stability numbers and the first bullet was about 1.2 sg and the second bullet was over 1.5 sg.
Just because you can get a bullet to an animal accurately does not mean the bullet will perform properly. Marginally stable for ballistics can shoot extremely accurately but significantly increase the odds of failure to expand."

Straight from the designer of the Hammer mono metal bullets "THE ONLY DIFF WAS BARREL TWIST. LOTS OF LIGHTBULBS WENT OFF AT THAT MOMENT "

To make this as simple as possible, I'll use a very basic illustration. If you had a 30-06 with a smoothbore barrel (no rifling twist), and fired a Barnes TSX bullet from it at 2900 fps into a block of ballistic gel at point blank range, it would likely fail to expand. It would enter the ballistic get point forward, and very rapidly yaw sideways until it had turned 180 degrees, and the base was pointing forward. The nose of the bullet will be pushed inward, not outward. This 180 turn is very common for projectiles with limited gyroscopic stability, and the M-16 rifle was famous for it during the war in Vietnam.

This is most likely the reason for the bullets failure to expand, and also explains the small exit wounds noted by some.

That same 30-06 with the same bullet at the same 2900fps velocity, but with a rifled barrel spinning the bullet at a rate of 1 turn for every 8 inches of forward travel, or 1/8, will produce a beautifully mushroomed 4 petal Barnes X. What is the difference between the two examples? Twist. Centrifical force. 2900fps X 1 turn in 8 inches = 261,000 RPM!

You don't crush the bullet nose open on a Barnes X, you SPIN the bullet nose open.

@skydiver386
100%agree . Fire a 55 gn bullet out of a 222rem with a 1:12 twist then fire the same bullet out of a 223 rem with a 1:9 twist at the SAME VELOCITY and the one out of the 223 does noticeably more damage to game. NOTHING at all to do with the bullet or speed but the greater rotational speed seems to upset the bullet faster and more in my humble opinion. I have seen this in the field when I have shit Roos with a mate.
Bob

 

[SRvet]

I haven't read the last 2 pages but from what I can see impact velocity and rate of spin are needed to have Barnes work properly. I have seen some mono metal bullets with cuts on the outside of the nose. It would seem the depth and length determine how soon and how much for given velocities and rotational effect they open up.

I had not considered the rotational effect. However I did give in, always said I given Barnes enough of my money, and tried some 85 grain TSX? 270 cal designed for the 6.8SPC in my 6.8SPC. You would thought I would have learnt. Fired into two goats side on at 20mts. Took 3 shots on each, they just penciled through. The goats would have died from the first shot as was through the heart. Accuracy was so, so. About 1.5MOA. Yep, threw the rest of them in the bin.

Can I ask how you determined they had pencilled through? Did you assess the internal organs for damage, also any idea what velocity they were impacting at?
With the 100g 6.5 calibre TTSX at 3400fps we have seen small entrance and exit wounds with tissue soup and massive damage in between the two holes. I suspect that the petals were being shed owing to the high impact velocity. At longer ranges with reduced impact velocity there is a larger exit wound. The 130g TTSX at 3000fps MV gives a more consistently large exit wound at closer ranges.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Greetings all Hunters (especially fellow Rifle Grumps),

Reportedly, Barnes monumental expanding bullets are more reliable than when first introduced, especially their latest version, with that plastic thingy in the nose.
And that is definitely good news.
Having said that, evidently now and then, even that newest version fails to expand in some critter, resulting in an undesirable “ice pick type wound”.

With hunting rifles, I have experienced such consistently excellent performance from heavy for caliber, blunt shaped projectiles, within about 300 paces that, I see no reason to waste what little time I have left (I’m a geezer) with new bullet experimentation.
“Hollow point spitzers, bah-humbug”

If anyone wants to clobber me for that, go ahead.
Undoubtedly I’ve had worse.
(Been married twice).

Best Regards,
Velo Dog.

@Velo Dog
Fortunately Australia hasn't gone done crazy street and demanded Bob toxic YET. I've been experimenting with Woodleigh 225gn round nose in my Whelen after seeing the in game reaction and performance of the big ol 250,gn Hornady RNSP in Namibia.
Under 300 the hit harder than the fancy pointy thingies in my book .
Loaded to 2,900 fps they should work well and as a bonus the group there shots into a clover leaf at 100 yards.
I'll stay in the old school camp with you mate.
Bob

 

[Rule 303]

Can I ask how you determined they had pencilled through? Did you assess the internal organs for damage, also any idea what velocity they were impacting at?
With the 100g 6.5 calibre TTSX at 3400fps we have seen small entrance and exit wounds with tissue soup and massive damage in between the two holes. I suspect that the petals were being shed owing to the high impact velocity. At longer ranges with reduced impact velocity there is a larger exit wound. The 130g TTSX at 3000fps MV gives a more consistently large exit wound at closer ranges.

Simple, small hole going in and out of the skin and heart. If they had shed the petals there would have been more internal damage I would have thought. Mind you I did not go looking for petals but no tissue soup.

Muzzle velocity 2910fps. Weather they shed the petals or not they still failed.