Understanding The Barnes TSX Controversy

[Hunter-Habib]

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS POST IS PURELY FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES WITH NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER TO CRITICIZE BARNES BULLETS

(I am still an avid fan & regular user)

Below is a 570Gr Barnes TSX bullet (fired from a .500 Nitro Express Federal Premium Cape Shok factory load at 2150 FPS) that was recovered from an African Cape buffalo. Expansion was non-existent and the Cape buffalo required other shots in order to be taken down.

Photograph Source: Thaba Mahaka Safaris

Below is a 300Gr Barnes TSX bullet (fired from a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum Barnes VOR-TX factory load at 2530 FPS) recovered from an Asiatic Gaur. Expansion was quite beautiful.

So here we have two scenarios involving the Barnes TSX bullet. One quite disconcerting & one quite encouraging.

Let's try to understand why this happens. In the late 2000s, quite a few reports were emerging of Barnes TSX bullets (as well as the earlier unbanded Barnes X bullet) failing to expand properly on certain big game when fired from certain calibers. The phenomenon was chalked up to either:
a) Faults in the initial batches of copper alloy
Or
b) Faulty hand loads (as well as some factory loads) which weren't being loaded to the ideal spec

Then, in the last one decade... the complaints suddenly seem to have stopped. Until the recent incident with the .500 Nitro Express and the Cape buffalo. As well as a few incidents involving the .470 Nitro Express (more details on those incidents will hopefully reach me soon).

I always discouraged usage of the Barnes TSX bullet on soft framed big game such as lions or leopards (or tigers, hypothetically speaking). My reasoning was that the all-copper hollow points would not expand quick enough on the great cats (esp. for broadside heart-lung shots taken at this kind of game feeding on baits). There would simply not be enough resistance in order for the bullets to begin expanding properly. But a Cape buffalo is a very thick framed game anima which provides ample resistance for bullets. And that 570Gr Barnes TSX bullet should have expanded properly.

My hypothesis is that the high velocity (2530 FPS) of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum Barnes VOR-TX factory load enabled my 300Gr Barnes TSX bullet to open up satisfactorily. While the relatively low velocity (2150 FPS) of the .500 Nitro Express Federal Premium Cape Shok factory load impeded the bullet's expansion. This might also explain why there have also been documented issues of 500Gr Barnes TSX bullets failing to expand upon being fired from .470 Nitro Express rifles (at a velocity identical to the .500 Nitro Express) but not Barnes TSX bullets being fired from higher velocity calibers like the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum or .416 Rigby.

Any thoughts/ insights here would be most welcome.

Warmest Regards,
Habib

 

[PARA45]

I believe you are 100% correct. I believe the heavier bullet requires more velocity to properly expand. That is why the 375 H&H bullets expanded beautifully, and the 500 NE, 570 grs bullet did not. I also wonder if the 570 grs would have hit heavy bones, if it would have expanded?

Great topic!

 

[RR 314]

You nailed it. Both bullets performed (roughly) as I would expect at the velocity posted.

 

[JMM]

I agree and have some experience/experimenting with Barnes bullets.

I believe Barnes need speed to expand and a lot of it. I shoot the 110 grain TTSX out of my '06 at 3500 fps. I have shot a couple hundred whitetails and cow elk with this and it works great. I am pretty sure they are expanding based on exit holes, but cannot confirm since every bullet exits and I rarely have an animal take a step. This is very important when culling. I don't have a lot of time to spend on a blood trail.

I have had hunters use Barnes in a more pedestrian round, around 2600 fps. These bullets made .308 holes going in and out. Almost non existent blood trails. We finally just asked hunters not to use them. There are a lot of great bullets out there that work on whitetails.

In an experiment I did in Africa, I loaded up some 168 grain TTSX in my 06. This long for weight bullet was giving me pressure problems so I dialed it down to around 2750 fps. It killed every wildebeest I shot at, but had the longest tracking distance and least visible reaction to hits. It worked, but not as well as others.

Just my observations and others may have different views.

 

[franzfmdavis]

Thank you for the insight! I am curious about the performance of a 500 grain 470NE bullet traveling at ~2000fps (while the factory ammo claims to be traveling at 2150, shot out of a 22 inch barrel I can only get 2000 or slightly higher). I’m currently trying to load for faster speeds but don’t expect to get much faster than 2150. I’m curious if that will be enough to expand?

 

[poco]

Yes I would agree a Barnes needs 2000+ fps to effectively expand, so is geared towards more modern faster rounds, my uncle and I were lucky enough to be picked as
Testers of the original barns X , it passed the test on expansion in a .300wm
But miserableby failed on pressure flattening primers, breaking brass at the magnum belt, jamming bolts, ect , then they coated them and they fouled barrels, then they Grooved them to reduce surface area and remove chamber pressure.
Now they can reach FPS without undergoing high pressure, plus they now use a different type of copper stock , which is more efficient expanding
On large caliber rifles imo have two choices, solids or lead soft points ( as originally engineered for )
This is just my opinion and not fact based because I never tested a mono with a large bore rifle with limited pressure capability
But have seen probably 150-200 nilgai & elk killed with barns in .280 - .375 caliber
And 2000fps seems to be the minimum for optimal efficiency

 

[PerH]

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Here is a Finnish designed copper one .

Problem with the old Barnes was sometimes the expansion holes were not drilled deep and wide enough , so pressure and performance could vary from each bullet .

What I see of that big bore one , it looks likes petals were pressed inwards and that stopped any chance of expansion to start .

 

[SRvet]

Hard to draw any firm conclusions from a sample of one bullet. I am sure that every bullet design will have experienced a failure to expand or perform adequately at some time or other but unless the bullet is recovered it is hard to say if it has failed. Saying that it is entirely possible for one batch to be more or less likely to expand at a given velocity due to material variations, alterations in annealing etc. Was the batch of ammunition chronographed as giving 2150fps or is that data off the box? I assume the range for both shots was similar - sub 80m? If the data was off the box then could the velocity have been much lower?
I have a moderate amount of experience with Barnes bullets having shot three to four hundred deer with them as well as some African game, buff, warthog, kudu etc with the 300 grain .375 TSX at 2550fps. I agree that velocity helps these bullets do incredible things. Providing there is sufficient velocity I find they show signs of very rapid expansion indeed.
I should add that I tend to use the 130gr TTSX at 3000fps (.308W) and the 120g TTSX (7mm Rem Mag at 3450fps)

 

[RR 314]

Thank you for the insight! I am curious about the performance of a 500 grain 470NE bullet traveling at ~2000fps (while the factory ammo claims to be traveling at 2150, shot out of a 22 inch barrel I can only get 2000 or slightly higher). I’m currently trying to load for faster speeds but don’t expect to get much faster than 2150. I’m curious if that will be enough to expand?

I have been assured by friends that they achieve adequate expansion in .30 and below at 1700-1800 fps. I think the larger the chunk of copper, you likely need significantly more speed. Nothing to back this up other than common sense. Then again, what makes sense to me is not always backed up by science/real world application. I think at the speeds you are talking about I would prefer a good bonded bullet rather than a Barnes.

 

[JimP]

It has been said quite often that the Barnes bullets be them the X, TSX, or even the TTSX design that they like speed and need speed to open up.

I am a faithful Barnes TTSX bullet shooter and have had zero problems with them but all the rifles that I shoot them out of I start them out well above or right at 3,000 fps and they are well above 2500 fps when they reach their targets.

If I was to shoot a larger caliber such as anything from .45 on up I believe that I would opt for a more conventional design simply for performance without having to worry about velocity.

 

[FlowHamed18]

This is the TSX which broke the opposite shoulder of my buffalo at approx
40m

It's a 400gr .422 bullet aka .404 Jeffery.

It's a reloaded bullet with approx 2300fps.

The buff went 25m and was down bellowing. The Barnes did all the work I could have asked for. So I wouldn't change anything for my .404 Jeffery.

 

[Doug3006]

My experience with 180 gr TSXs out of my 30-06 aligns with yours @Hunter-Habib. On thin-skinned animals at 2700 for they perform like a solid. Interestingly, 300 gr TSXs at 2,600 fps open nicely on larger game like eland. Does the larger frontal area overcome the relatively slow velocity or is it the more beefy animal that makes the difference?

 

[colorado]

I too shoot the 570g TSX, but through my 500 Jeffery at 2300 fps. I shot a cow elk at 225 yards, did not recover the bullet but the exit wound was significant telling me that some expansion occurred. I spoke to Barnes and they told me the 570 TSX would expand down to 1600 fps but I have no experience to back that up. I don't doubt your experience nor you conclusions. i'm thinking I should load my 500 Jeffery 570g TSX loads up to 2500 fps but at that point the recoil is a little more than "sporty" I too have been concerned about the expansion on softer skinned game (big bears?) I have 50 570g A-Frames,I should probably think about loading them. Thanks for your post, it's got me rethinking my 500 Jeffery load.

 

[grand veneur]

Maybe I did not really understand what it was about, but what is important, and that not just for the Barnes bullets, is the impact velocity and not the muzzle velocity. It is sure that so higher the muzzle velocity and so longer the distance you can shoot in order to still have sufficient impact velocity. In the case of the Barnes bullets, to achieve a maximum expansion, the impact velocity is on an average between 1800 and 2000 fps, which is still relatively high and is certainly, depending on the shooting distance, a limiting factor for full expansion of the TSX bullets if the muzzle velocity of a rifle is barely above 2000 fps.

 

[skydiver386]

How many here that have had trouble with any iteration of the Barnes X bullet can tell me what rate of rifling twist their barrel has?

How many here that have had trouble with any iteration of the Barnes X bullet can tell me the rotational speed of the bullet in RPM, of the rifle/bullet combination that failed?

Barnes bullets cannot just be driven to higher velocities and expected to work reliability, they must be spun faster with the twist of the rifling. The reason some have had success with higher velocity is because twist X velocity = rotational speed. Rotational speed produces the centrifical force needed to make these bullets expand.

Simply crushing the nose doesn't work like it does with lead. The designs are completely different and the physics behind them need to be thought of differently.

You wouldn't pour gas into a diesel engine and wonder why it didn't work would you?

 

[PARA45]

Here are some pictures of a Lioness I shot with a 375 H&H using 300 grs Barnes Vortex TSX ammo. Typical entry wound in my opinion. Exit, I'd would say looks a bit small and probably the bullet didn't quite fully expand. Inside, damage, seems like the kinettic energy did a number on the inside of this Lioness. BTW, I shot a total of 8 animals (Warthog and Bushbuck the smallest, to Cow Buff, Kudu the biggest) and unfortunately I did not recover a single bullet.

 

[grand veneur]

My experience with Barnes bullets and big bore calibers is limited to the shooting of two buffaloes with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum and the 450gr TSX bullet. It was a maximum load with a muzzle velocity of approximately 2600 fps. The shooting distances were in both cases between 50 and 100 yards. In both cases the bullets were maximally expanded.

As far as the rifling is concerned, that certainly plays a role by the use of modern bullets and there are differences between modern barrels for bolt action rifles caliber 375, 416 or 458 and barrels for double rifles caliber 470 and above.

 

[cajunchefray]

TARVAS G2 B-wax en | Red Moose - TARVAS Bullets

Red Moose manufactures and sels premium TARVAS lead free hunting bullets and cartridges loaded with TARVAS.

www.redmoose.eu

Here is a Finnish designed copper one .

Problem with the old Barnes was sometimes the expansion holes were not drilled deep and wide enough , so pressure and performance could vary from each bullet .

What I see of that big bore one , it looks likes petals were pressed inwards and that stopped any chance of expansion to start .

In my simple mind, I think about the hardness/softness of the copper, annealing, size and depth of the hollow point per caliber, bullet weight, and velocity.

Velocity, as expressed in ft/lbs muzzle energy, (not my primary consideration), but in this mathematical computation, with muzzle velocity squared, indicates more effective bullet expansion. It's the .270 Winchester effect from 1923, that works better on thin skinned game.
But I still prefer a 30-06 200 grain, or .35 Whelen 250 grain for effect.

@Hunter-Habib pictures and descriptions show, big difference in a lighter bullet (300 grain .375, 47% lighter than a 570 grain .510 bullet), but with 18.6% more muzzle velocity.
It's just math, but some engineering is well explained by math.

As for me, I have 2 boxes of .358, Barnes 225 grain TSX, that my gunsmith gave me, going to load them up at max velocity, (2600 fps) .030 off the lands. for my three .35 Whelen rifles. He told me they work on game, every time.

 

[cajunchefray]

My experience with Barnes bullets and big bore calibers is limited to the shooting of two buffaloes with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum and the 450gr TSX bullet. It was a maximum load with a muzzle velocity of approximately 2600 fps. The shooting distances were in both cases between 50 and 100 yards. In both cases the bullets were maximally expanded.

As far as the rifling is concerned, that certainly plays a role by the use of modern bullets and there are differences between modern barrels for bolt action rifles caliber 375, 416 or 458 and barrels for double rifles caliber 470 and above.

Curious about the rifling perspective (but I am always curious).

Is it twist rate, rifling profile and depth, number of grooves and lands?

It makes sense, that "harder" alloyed mono-metal bullets may require different rifling design, twists than traditional lead, or soft cupronickel cup and core bullets.

 

[colorado]

My 500 jeffery barrel is a 1 in 10" twist. Shooting a 570g TSX at 2510 fps you can feel the forearm twist in your hand.