Tungsten buckshot for leopard follow up?

[Safari Dave]

I got my first exposure to tungsten this year...

Holy Cow!

That stuff will shoot through anything. I don't know if an autoloader is legal anywhere in Africa, but I think I may feel more safe following up a leopard with a very reliable, repeating 12-gauge, loaded with 3" #2 tungsten, than anything I can imagine.


I made the mistake of buying 3 1/2" shells loaded with 2 ounces of tungsten for turkey hunting this year. You might as well pull both triggers of a .600 NE double rifle simultaneously, if you want to experience the recoil!

 

[BeeMaa]

I got my first exposure to tungsten this year...

Holy Cow!

That stuff will shoot through anything. I don't know if an autoloader is legal anywhere in Africa, but I think I may feel more safe following up a leopard with a very reliable, repeating 12-gauge, loaded with 3" #2 tungsten, than anything I can imagine.


I made the mistake of buying 3 1/2" shells loaded with 2 ounces of tungsten for turkey hunting this year. You might as well pull both triggers of a .600 NE double rifle simultaneously, if you want to experience the recoil!

I've often said that my SBE with 3.5" turkey shells is the hardest kicking firearm I own.

 

[BourbonTrail]

I've often said that my SBE with 3.5" turkey shells is the hardest kicking firearm I own.

My 835 is probably in the same boat.

 

[BeeMaa]

My 835 is probably in the same boat.

Doesn't stop me from wanting to try 2+ ounces of BB or T shot at 1500 fps as a defense load.

 

[colorado]

I'd use whatever Jim Corbett used (except his 275 Rigby). That being said I'm in the market for a Zabala 10 gauge SxS. I think two barrels of 0000 tungsten buckshot would stop most things.

 

[thriller]

Given a former thread claiming tungsten shot passes through geese, ducks, etc. could we extrapolate that increased performance to tungsten buckshot? If no 9 tungsten is passing through birds, would tungsten buckshot end the debate about penetration/effectiveness on wounded leopards? It would not flatten on bone or the facial musculature of a tiger like soft lead. Would it guarantee proper penetration? And who is willing to load and try it? (I think I would...) What say ye?

It is extremely effective on hogs I can tell you that blows right through them.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

You are absolutely correct.

The Mossberg 835 (3.5" chamber) was introduced in 1988, while the Benelli Super Black Eagle came out just after the Federal legislation in 1992. The SBE was the first semi-auto shotgun capable of 2.75", 3" and 3.5" without any adjustments. This is what put Benelli on the map (in the US) with waterfowl hunters along with its reliability and clean running action. So maybe not the first overall, but among the first semi-autos.

I appreciate the correction.

Side note/history lesson - If you happen to be on a waterfowl hunt with someone who has an early production original SBE, they are very proud of the H&K import stamp on it. They were made in Italy and imported by H&K until the late 1990's when they opened the Benelli factory in Accokeek, MD. All subsequent SBE stampings are marked as such. I'm going to visit an AH member next year who has one of these H&K stamped shotguns and I can't wait to take a closer look.

I’ve had both the Mossberg and a SBE of later 90’s make. I think it has the Accokeek stamp on it, but I’m not going to open the safe to confirm. The Mossberg was a piece of junk. The SBE…..well the kids better not piss me off too much else I’ll request to be buried with it.

 

[BeeMaa]

I’ve had both the Mossberg and a SBE of later 90’s make. I think it has the Accokeek stamp on it, but I’m not going to open the safe to confirm. The Mossberg was a piece of junk. The SBE…..well the kids better not piss me off too much else I’ll request to be buried with it.

Had me LMAO. Most of the semi-auto shotguns with 3.5" capability were junk in the early 90's. The SBE was the way to go. Took me a little while to be able to afford one, but it was worth it.

 

[Safari Dave]

Had me LMAO. Most of the semi-auto shotguns with 3.5" capability were junk in the early 90's. The SBE was the way to go. Took me a little while to be able to afford one, but it was worth it.

Same here.

 

[Safari Dave]

Doesn't stop me from wanting to try 2+ ounces of BB or T shot at 1500 fps as a defense load.

That would be more lethal than a Minigun for self-defense!

 

[deewayne2003]

I've often said that my SBE with 3.5" turkey shells is the hardest kicking firearm I own.

You should try HEVI shot T out of a single shot H&R 10ga!

It kills on both ends but it scary lethal on coyotes out to 80yds.

But I would still prefer a slug for anything capable of making me look like a lawn mower had ran over me.

 

[Frederik]

With no real experience on charging leopards I would think a double rifle would be a better option than a shotgun with pellets.
Enough energy and penetration from any angle and two quick shots.
Most DG, PH's with a double will know that gun well and be use to it for quick shots.
Sure a 500gr bullet at 2100fps in the body will slow down a lepoard very fast.

Or you could go Capstick and this is where I think he had one too much while writting this putting on a leather jacket and mask for his face and head as well as his throat and then go in with shotgun and buckshot.

 

[flatwater bill]

Hevi-Shot T used to be my fav load for coyotes, but it is not even close to TSS in effectiveness on heavier game. Recoil is the only reason I don't recommend the big 2 and one half ounce load of TSS in a 3.5 inch 12ga. Most shotguns are in the 7-9 pound range, and recoil is intolerable, making follow up shots difficult. This load out penetrated any buck shot I have tested....since the pellets in many old lead loads were softer than hard bone, they looked good in ballistic gelatin, but not on hard targets, like a predator's skull. TSS is rounder, smoother, much heavier, and far harder than bone......FWB

 

[Philip Glass]

First we need to look at the reason for the origin of TSS, because it was the banning of lead for the use of waterfowl combined with the ineffectiveness of the replacement steel shot. This legislation brought a few major breakthroughs in the shotgun community. First was the 3.5" magnum shotgun first made commercially available in the Benelli Super Black Eagle. Second was the advancement of materials used in waterfowling ammunition. This came in the form of steel blended with other non-toxic metals like bismuth and eventually TSS.

The density of the TSS (18 g/cc) is much greater than even lead (11 g/cc) and this took the waterfowl ammo industry in the exact opposite direction that steel and bismuth did. Instead of needing one or two sizes larger shot compared to what was commonly used for lead, now they could go much smaller, have more pellets and (arguably) be more lethal on birds.

Example with chart inserted below...
Typical lead load for goose was #2 shot when it was legal
Then the normal steel load for goose became B or BB or even BBB
TSS load for goose is 7 or 7.5 shot from Federal and Apex

There is no doubt that TSS has performed well in the laboratory and the field. Although not safe for use in all shotguns due to some of the materials used in the past, all modern shotguns with proper chokes can enjoy the advantages of TSS. The only sticking point is cost, and it's a big point. In some cases TSS ammo can be 3x more expensive than steel and 2x the price of steel/bismuth blends. The argument comes when a waterfowl hunter uses one shot of TSS ammo to down a bird vs using 2 or 3 shots of steel.

So now let's try to extrapolate this to hunting something other than waterfowl. What size would one consider for such an undertaking? Goose loads went from #2 lead to #7.5 TSS...so buckshot could theoretically go from 00 down to FF? Maybe all the way down to BB or B? That could be a debate...

A quick search revealed that finding TSS pellets in a size larger than BB (.180") is not easy. What I did find (on Amazon of all places) is #6 shot (.110") being labeled as "buckshot", which I thought was a little amusing.

The bottom line is that there is no ban on lead where there is leopard hunting so this entire post is for naught. Not to mention the increase in cost. Thanks for reading and you can now go back to debating CRF vs PF.

View attachment 503259

Wow that was a lot of info. impressive!

 

[Safari Dave]

I'd go Capstick, with a Remington 870 that will take 3" shells.

I don't have access to a Winchester 12.

 

[IvW]

With no real experience on charging leopards I would think a double rifle would be a better option than a shotgun with pellets.
Enough energy and penetration from any angle and two quick shots.
Most DG, PH's with a double will know that gun well and be use to it for quick shots.
Sure a 500gr bullet at 2100fps in the body will slow down a lepoard very fast.

Or you could go Capstick and this is where I think he had one too much while writting this putting on a leather jacket and mask for his face and head as well as his throat and then go in with shotgun and buckshot.

Yes it is. Any form of pellets is a no no for leopard. For lion any shotgun is a nono.
However a short double shotgun is so much lighter than a large bore double and has a lot less muzzle jump and it has a very natural pointing ability....
Many ask where do you aim at a charging leopard.....well in the middle of the spotted ball of angry shit that is heading your way.....
A leopard unlike a lion will wait until the very last possible minute to launch an attack that is truelly frightening at the speed it takes place....it can hand out 200 stiches each to 4 people and be gone before anybody can get a shot off....
I do the same as Capstick for leopard follow up....
After seeing how quickly a leopard can cause devestation in a follow up...the damage is always upper body and especially the head....scalpings not being uncommon....

I wear a old tank driver jacket it is made of some or other fireproof material and has a lining inbetween the outer and inner material. It is also designed very strong with a handle behind the head so they could aparantly pull the person out the turret if needed. On my head I put a scrum cap....yes you look like a fool but no leopard is gonna tear me apart or scalp me....

When I was still an appy my mentor also wore a jacket but no headgear he did also wrap his left arm with hessian..he also used a slug loaded shortened shotgun with no sight or bead. His reasoning was that with the short shotgun you can get the first shot into the cat and if he reaches you(they always jump on you chest to get to your head) you feed it the wrapped left arm and then you can still use the shotgun with your other hand pushe againdt the leopard and feed it the second barrell....
Sounds like a fairy tale but it is what it is ....so be prepared and wounded leopard follow up is the PH job.

Trust me there is no time to cycle a bolt or work a pump action shotgun.....and most large bore double rifles are gonna aford you only 1 shot....

 

[Traveler1]

Buckshot= SHOT FOR BUCKS (deer). NOT leopards, lions or tigers. Tungsten shot might work impressively on birds. But the great cats are a whole different ball game. In my opinion (and experience), the best tool for following up any wounded leopard, lion or Royal Bengal tiger into the thick stuff is a short handy double rifle in .500/416 Nitro Express (loaded with 400Gr Nosler Partition soft points).

I cannot agree more about buckshot. That being said I shot my first jaguar with Remington 11-87 30" Full Choke using 3" 00 Buckshot. I was in tree sitting on limb about 20 feet above it. He was eating a goat and had no idea I was there. So no adrenaline was pumping through him. I shot it right between the shoulder blades, he never moved. We did not check the penetration, but he was stone dead. I would rather have my rifle on a charging leopard, unless maybe the cover was so think that a shotgun made a little more sense.

I shot my second leopard right at dark. So after waiting the "standard" waiting period. We went to follow it up. I was using my single TC hand-cannon, so I left my TC and the blind and opted to take my 454 Causal instead. My PH took his 375 H&H. I was we leaving the blind, I asked why he did not grab the 12 gauge, as I heard that was best gun for follow up. He said he had bad experiences with follow up using a shot gun and that he was leaving it for the tracker.

Maybe TSS is a shot size larger then T in a 3.5" would have made his past experiences a pleasant one.

 

[Traveler1]

I got my first exposure to tungsten this year...

Holy Cow!


I made the mistake of buying 3 1/2" shells loaded with 2 ounces of tungsten for turkey hunting this year. You might as well pull both triggers of a .600 NE double rifle simultaneously, if you want to experience the recoil!

Yeah that shit kicks. I shoot it out of my Browning Cynery so I get the full blow. I remember the first time I shot 7.5" high brass as kid and though it kicked like a mule. High brass is like a 22 compared to 2 ounce tungsten. Funny thing I just ordered 2.5 ounce for my 10 gauge. At least its an auto. I am no PH, but I even 2.5 oz of tungsten seems not enough since its only 7.5 shot size.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

You should try HEVI shot T out of a single shot H&R 10ga!

It kills on both ends but it scary lethal on coyotes out to 80yds.

But I would still prefer a slug for anything capable of making me

With no real experience on charging leopards I would think a double rifle would be a better option than a shotgun with pellets.
Enough energy and penetration from any angle and two quick shots.
Most DG, PH's with a double will know that gun well and be use to it for quick shots.
Sure a 500gr bullet at 2100fps in the body will slow down a lepoard very fast.

Or you could go Capstick and this is where I think he had one too much while writting this putting on a leather jacket and mask for his face and head as well as his throat and then go in with shotgun and buckshot.

I would agree with your summation especially on firing slugs, I see no advantage over a double in 450, 470, 500 etc. Might as well use your primary back up then, as it is the firearm you’ll (as ph) be most proficient with.

With that said in a semi auto the tungsten shot could be incredibly lethal. The age old argument amongst Professional Hunters of double vs shotgun will never be settled.
Robin Hurt if memory serves fired 3 shots into a charging leopard the cat made contact he got pushed over a small cliff or some rocks and broke his back…

I have had one instance where I got zero penetration after a solid hit, and another where I slowed one down sufficiently with buckshot to smoke it at about 3 paces a second time both with a semi.

The charge I had with the double I was lucky enough to kill it stone dead before it made 4 paces.

I guess it all depends on what you handle the best. There is no right or wrong here.
Great Thread!
Jaco.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I cannot agree more about buckshot. That being said I shot my first jaguar with Remington 11-87 30" Full Choke using 3" 00 Buckshot. I was in tree sitting on limb about 20 feet above it. He was eating a goat and had no idea I was there. So no adrenaline was pumping through him. I shot it right between the shoulder blades, he never moved. We did not check the penetration, but he was stone dead. I would rather have my rifle on a charging leopard, unless maybe the cover was so think that a shotgun made a little more sense.

I shot my second leopard right at dark. So after waiting the "standard" waiting period. We went to follow it up. I was using my single TC hand-cannon, so I left my TC and the blind and opted to take my 454 Causal instead. My PH took his 375 H&H. I was we leaving the blind, I asked why he did not grab the 12 gauge, as I heard that was best gun for follow up. He said he had bad experiences with follow up using a shot gun and that he was leaving it for the tracker.

Maybe TSS is a shot size larger then T in a 3.5" would have made his past experiences a pleasant one.

What brand of O.O Buck did you use, Traveler 1 ? And were they copper plated ? Yes, your accomplishment is highly plausible, especially at that range. Upon an unsuspecting jaguar. No doubt some of the O.O Buckshot pellets hit the jaguar in the spinal column, which is what floored him on the spot. I don't think that the same load would work for a frontal shot on a charging jaguar.