Traditionally inaccurate cartridges

[Flewis]

@Flewis
A 25-45 sharps almost equals a 250 Savage with 28gn of powders.
Would be nice in a little 6# rifle.
Bob

What happened to the 25-45? You don’t see anything about it anymore. Great little round.

 

[Flewis]

@rdog
Is that 65gns of rice short grain, long grain, basmatti, brown or white.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

Careful! Spainch rice may be to hot

 

[rdog]

Careful! Spainch rice may be to hot

You missed fried rice ! actually its 65 grains of bulls eye.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Varoius 6.5 have extreme ratio between diameter and length of bullet.
Thus, they have very high sectional density, and theoretically (with pointed or hollow point bullets) extremely high BC for caliber. For this reason in hunting applications they will also have high penetration.

On the other hand, various .30 cal bullets are short compared to their caliber, and for this reason have smaller potential, and in accuracy department (ie - long range accuracy), they are loosing popularity while various 6.5 are gaining.
The only reason for this, is (obsolete) SAAMI and CIP specs for 30 cal, defining LOA and chamber dimension specs for calibers such as 308 win, 30-06 etc.. The standard accepted by industry for last 100 years, and hardly can be done something now to change.

.30 cal (like 308 win) now is in long range shooting mostly kept alive because it represents class of its own (F class FTR) and is coming from nato standard. And they are well proven in hunting fields, but there, in hunting, perfect accuracy is not required.

Below are some older examples with long for caliber bullet visible in 6.5 mm class. At least to me, the lenght of bullet sticking out from casing is impressive.

6.5 carcano
6.5x55
Arisaka 6.5
View attachment 508427
View attachment 508426
View attachment 508425

Wait, I think you're missing some important points. The SAMMI or CIP specs speak to the dimensions of the loaded round, which drives chamber specifications, which directly relates to chamber pressure. They can only be "obsolete" in the sense that no one is marketing the round anymore.

They also do not speak to the distance to the lands... which has an awful lot to do with cartridge overall length. Back to SAMMI/CIP, any bullet made to those specs will safely fire in a gun chambered to those specs. That's the point: I can take my rifle anywhere, and when I go to the store and buy .30-06 ammo for it, I know it's going to be safe in my rifle. SAMMI/CIP have said nothing about its accuracy.

Also left out in your discussion is the twist in the rifling. You speak too long for calibre bullets, which require a faster twist rate. For example, that Carcano bullet above: very long for calibre (required to get 162 grains in a 6.5mm bullet), and we know it's accurate enough to get two head shots from a bolt action rifle on a moving target at about 100 yards. But if you were to go with a much lighter bullet (and there are a LOT of 100 to 120 grain bullets in 6.5mm these days, and a dearth of 158 to 160 grain), fired through the same rifle, the twist rate would be far too high for the much shorter bullet, leading to stability problems and thus inaccuracy. To load it deep enough into the case for the case to securely grip the bullet, you're also going to have a much shorter cartridge overall length, which will lead to a greater "jump" to the lands, and again, issues with stability.

Similar issues abound with some of the other cartridges you've mentioned. My favorite remains the .30-06. Go ahead and call it obsolete. I don't find it that way at all. Remember, "original design" called for a 150 grain bullet, and the 1903 Springfield has a 1 in 10" twist. Cartridge Overall length was 3.34". One could speak all day about what qualifies as accurate or not, but I note that a lot of matches were won at Camp Perry using that gun. But what happens if we change things?

I was hoping I could go to the Hornady page, or the Norma page, or some other easily accessible place to find bullet (not cartridge) dimensions, to show how much shorter a light bullet in the same calibre would be, but no such luck. I can find Ballistic Coefficient and Sectional Density, but not bullet length. But I do know that correct twist rate includes length, weight, and shape of the projectile, and of those, length is the most critical, because that determines how much of the bullet will be in contact with the lands. Shape does impact this, as a round nose bullet will have much more contact than a spitzer bullet, but length really makes a difference. If you expect a rifle with a twist rate optimized for a longer bullet to show similar accuracy in a much shorter bullet, that's not going to be there. But SAMMI and CIP will tell you it is safe to fire it.

Now, if you go back to those "old rounds" you've listed above, other issues become apparent. Limited by powder types available at the time, to stay within safe chamber pressures, "slower" muzzle velocity was the outcome. A heavier bullet at that speed would have greater energy... but a heavier bullet would be longer for size. And that's where you have your impressive length of bullet sticking outside the brass. Seat it deeper, and there's no room left in the case for powder. Make a longer case, and now you need a longer action, longer magazine, etc., etc., etc.

If you put a little 100 grain bullet in that Carcano, it's going to go all over the place. But if you put that Carcano bullet in a Grendel, you're also going to have problems. Twist rate matters.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You missed fried rice ! actually its 65 grains of bulls eye.

@rdog
65gn of bulls eye would disconbooberate that rifle very quickly.
How to dismantle a firearm and shooter in one easy lesson
Bob

 

[Dr Ray]

Many cartridges are not considered very accurate by many because of their history as traditional hunting cartridges. Such as 270, 30-06, 7x57, 257 Robb. And many dangerous game cartridges.
What guns do you all have that disprove these claims ,and show groups too if you can.

I have a Sako S/S in 270
No complaints at all
Shoots various bullet weights to sane horizontal

 

[mark-hunter]

Wait, I think you're missing some important points. The SAMMI or CIP specs speak to the dimensions of the loaded round, which drives chamber specifications, which directly relates to chamber pressure. They can only be "obsolete" in the sense that no one is marketing the round anymore.

No.
Its about pottential, limited by cip and saami standard.
But dont take it wrong. For example 308 win and 30-06 are great calibers, proven in hunting.
But if the specs would allow longer LOA they could do even better.
For example.
take 30 cal, 240, 250 grains bullet?
Longer then usual 30 cal bullets up to 180,190 grains.
Pracitcally impossible. so this dont exist
Because in order to put long bullet, in casing, and to comply to specs, it will have to be seated deeper in casing, reducing the powder volume.
You can not put longer bullet to stick longer from casing when there are length limitation in the chamber.
So, with 308 and 3006, we are here where we are. 308 up to 200 grains, and 3006 up to 220 grains.

But if the saami and cip chamber specs are different, they could be of longer overall lenght, which would then mean higher sectional density and higher ballistic coefficient, better penetration, more accuracy and longer range.
If they could be longer, then the specs vould be even with higher chamber pressure. But we are now getting to realm of wildcat calibers which will never be popular as standard calibers, because standard saami and cip specs seam to be carved in stone. unchangable

If we are talking hunting, for 30 calibers as they are now, they are good and excellent. But for long range shooting, they could be better, but cannot be developed further because of specs of chamber.

In the same time, we are seeing revival of 6.5 class, exactly because the bullets are long, and slick. They cut thought the air with minimum resistance. They are "exiting" and "fashionable".
So in the sense of long range shooting, 308 win for example does become obsolete, when compared to 6.5 CM which is in the continues rise..
But in hunting fields, far away from that. 308 and 30-06 will still stay there for quite some time, and as hunting rounds cannot be described as obsolete.
Consider this:
With latest development of scopes, and factory rifles standard accuracy.
Long range shooting becomes modern trend and fashion, and in this trend new calibers are becoming popular, pushing old ones aside.

In "old fashion" hunting, up to 200 meters, old traditional 30 calibers still rule.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

No.
Its about pottential, limited by cip and saami standard.
But dont take it wrong. For example 308 win and 30-06 are great calibers, proven in hunting.
But if the specs would allow longer LOA they could do even better.
For example.
take 30 cal, 240, 250 grains bullet?
Longer then usual 30 cal bullets up to 180,190 grains.
Pracitcally impossible. so this dont exist
Because in order to put long bullet, in casing, and to comply to specs, it will have to be seated deeper in casing, reducing the powder volume.
You can not put longer bullet to stick longer from casing when there are length limitation in the chamber.
So, with 308 and 3006, we are here where we are. 308 up to 200 grains, and 3006 up to 220 grains.

But if the saami and cip chamber specs are different, they could be of longer overall lenght, which would then mean higher sectional density and higher ballistic coefficient, better penetration, more accuracy and longer range.
If they could be longer, then the specs vould be even with higher chamber pressure. But we are now getting to realm of wildcat calibers which will never be popular as standard calibers, because standard saami and cip specs seam to be carved in stone. unchangable

If we are talking hunting, for 30 calibers as they are now, they are good and excellent. But for long range shooting, they could be better, but cannot be developed further because of specs of chamber.

In the same time, we are seeing revival of 6.5 class, exactly because the bullets are long, and slick. They cut thought the air with minimum resistance. They are "exiting" and "fashionable".
So in the sense of long range shooting, 308 win for example does become obsolete, when compared to 6.5 CM which is in the continues rise..
But in hunting fields, far away from that. 308 and 30-06 will still stay there for quite some time, and as hunting rounds cannot be described as obsolete.
Consider this:
With latest development of scopes, and factory rifles standard accuracy.
Long range shooting becomes modern trend and fashion, and in this trend new calibers are becoming popular, pushing old ones aside.

In "old fashion" hunting, up to 200 meters, old traditional 30 calibers still rule.

@mark_hunter
If tou want to play around with long bullets get a single shot or a longer mag box and long throat the chamber to your needs. Then you can seat the bullet out as far as you want. Weatherby long throats it's rifles and even using short for caliber bullets it doesn't have accuracy issues with bullet jump.
Bob

 

[mark-hunter]

O, yes, of course! Thanks for mentioning!