Timing Of Second Shot On Dangerous Game With A Double Rifle?

[franzfmdavis]

The discussion in the memorial thread about the tragic passing of PH Greg Mickelson raised a question in my mind, which I would appreciate insight on from those who are more experienced.

I felt it would be more appropriate to raise this question in a separate thread.

I recognize that this question may seem naïve or perhaps even silly, but I want to preface it by saying I have not yet hunted dangerous game with a double rifle (or any rifle) so I have no real world experience to reflect upon.

“If” the client hunter that was with Mr. Michelson was using a double rifle, and “if” he made a less than ideal first shot on the animal, would it have been wise for him to take his second shot quickly if possible, rather than “wait” to see if the bull would succumb from the first shot (I’m using quotes on words that assume facts not in evidence).

I recognize that the second shot on a double rifle is partially there for security in the event of a charge, so rather than get hung up on this aspect, let’s assume that the animal is not charging after the first shot.

The reason I asked this is that some of tragic stories I have read, as well as some hunting videos online, seem to involve a client taking a bad first shot with a DR and then essentially waiting to see how bad it is rather than taking the second shot at the animal before it is out of sight. I have seen some videos where the PH tells the client to take the second shot relatively quickly, but I have seen more situations where “it seems” they have “wasted an opportunity” to take a second shot.

The second shot from a double rifle can be had as quickly as you can get back on target, so why not take two shots on an animal that does not appear to be charging and improve the chances of killing it quickly?

More generally, is it necessary, or part of the protocol, to wait for the PH to also approve a second shot, or is it reasonable to take as many shots as necessary once the PH gives the go ahead on the first shot?

Please understand that I am not asking this question to criticize or belittle anyone who has done differently. I am genuinely seeking to better understand the strategies of hunting with a double rifle for DG, which I hope to do in the near future.

 

[mark-hunter]

More generally, is it necessary, or part of the protocol, to wait for the PH to also approve a second shot, or is it reasonable to take as many shots as necessary once the PH gives the go ahead on the first shot?

On my buffalo hunt, I made it clear in advance to PH and to my hunting buddy (my back up rifle team) they are cleared from my side to take immediate second shot after my first shot, if they see fit.

This was not necessary, on the end.
But I made it clear in the beginning.

That being said:
I dont think there is a "formal protocol" for shooting.

In plains game hunting, if I needed to make second shot (and my philosophy is to keep shooting as long as it stands), there is always somebody in the back who will be cheering "reload, shoot", "reload, shoot". This is normal human reaction.

In case a hunter forgets to make second shot, he will be reminded within a millisecond, by a tracker or PH, or anybody in the team to shoot again, "reload, shoot", "reload, shoot".

I dont need exactly that type of advice, in that kind of a moment, but second shot is expected immediately after the first shot, if animal is standing or running away, PG or DG.

In my particular hunting situation with buffalo, the team - who was cleared to shoot from my side, kept cheering "reload, shoot", "reload, shoot", obviously PH did not think his rifle backup was needed, (my buffalo was dead with the first shot, but buffalo did not know that just yet), and my friend instead of backing me up with his rifle, was busy filming the event - he left his rifle in the car - and while being focused on buffalo I was certain I had additional rifle as a back up. )

The hunter has the best visual perception with a scope - regardless who is standing nearby him. And standard "reload, shoot", "reload, shoot", team cheering does not make always necessary the best advice.

I had situations, when I could clearly see through the scope a possibility of wounding another animal. So, I did not fire a second shot, before it was clear for me to shoot. This delayed my second shot, maybe without immediate understanding of my guide.

 

[BryceM]

I’m certainly no expert in this area, but I’m interested in people’s thoughts.

On elephant, if they turn away, as they usually do, I imagine it’s best to get as many holes in the thing as possible, as quickly as possible. If they don’t turn away, you have an immediate problem, and it’s probably best to get shooting. In fact, with elephant, I can’t think of too many scenarios where delaying the second shot would be a good idea.

With buffalo, they often disappear very quickly after one shot. It’s also possible during recoil recovery to lose track of exactly which animal was hit the first time. Two wounded buffalo would be a rather dicey scenario….. If after the first shot the buffalo was basically standing there, I’d be inclined to shoot again, but would also be listening to my PH.

Of course, the animal’s buddies might also decide to join the battle, irrespective of the intentions of the first target.

 

[1dirthawker]

i have a 450-400 o/u zoli rifle. only hunted one buffalo, shot him in his bed in the heart, he jumped up and i actually had to wait on him sitting on the 2nd trigger until he turned enough so i could shoot him again and broke his hip.

the double made two quick shots easy. it was only 30-35 yards, but, there was no way i could have done the same thing with a bolt action rifle. whether it is two shots on an incoming, or outgoing animal, nothing is faster for those 2 shots.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I was using a Belgium made .458 Winchester Magnum boxlock ejector during this Cape buffalo hunt in 1978 in Tanzania (when the hunting ban was lifted). Left barrel was loaded with a Hornady 500Gr soft point, while the right barrel was loaded with a Hornady 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid (both handloads).

First shot was with the left barrel while the brute was standing with his broadside exposed to me. I knew he was hit, but I had no time to discern where. He started turning to escape and offered me a quartering away snap shot with the right barrel. I took it, and tried to reload the double rifle... only to realize (much to my horror) that the ejectors had failed and now both the empty cartridge cases were stuck in the breech. I essentially had a big stick in my hands... definitely inadequate should that wounded Cape buffalo decide that he was going to turn around & charge.

My white hunter (a TAWICO appointed native African) was armed with a Remington Model 700 in .458 Winchester Magnum, but didn't seem very skilled with his weapon so I doubt that he could have stopped the charge lest one occurred (although he was extremely polite & a good natured fellow).

All these thoughts seem to have rushed through me for hours, but in reality... it was only for a few seconds. We heard a loud crash in front of us and saw the dust kick up from the ground. There, lying between 90-95 yards away... was my Cape buffalo; dead. Postmortem revealed that the soft point had taken out both the lungs, so that Cape buffalo would not have required the second shot anyway. Nevertheless, it was quite comforting to see that the solid had broken the bovine's shoulder bone and torn through the heart.

To answer your question in brief: I always prefer (when hunting with a double rifle) to take the first shot and gauge the game's reaction for a split second before firing again. But in between shots, I always keep the rifle trained on the game so that I don't need any additional time to make the second shot.

The one exception to this rule, is when following up a wounded leopard. Then, you fire off both barrels as fast as you can into him.

 

[KJE81]

I think a second shot within 10 seconds would be a good idea since at least some double rifles will begin to shift their convergence after ten seconds. I have had two with that little quirk, as long as both shots are within 10 seconds the regulation worked flawless, but after that they started to spread at least a couple of decimeters more then the regulation load at less then 10 seconds. If a double rifle is like this I think one is better of reloading the first barrel instead if the follow up shot is not within the 10 seconds time frame.

Also are there any drawbacks of putting two shots in the animal as fast as possible? If trophy hunting I mean, I can see the drawbacks when you are hunting for meat

 

[Major Bonkers]

In response to BryceM, above; I have only shot one buffalo, so I can hardly claim to be an expert, for which I was using a double rifle in .470.

The first shot was broadside at about 65 yards, right on the shoulder. The bullet (a Rhino solid) unfortunately fragmented, and what was left of it deflected into the brisket. By the time that I was back on target, the buffalo (and his two askaris) was making a quick getaway and an - in any way proper - follow-up shot was impossible before they all disappeared into the mopani bush.

Follow-up. The classic 'P-turn' and ambush from the side. The PH saw him in good time and fired, grazing the buffalo's cheek, at which point the buffalo turned tail again.

Four hours after the first shot, he charged the PH, running in front of me right to left at approximately 25 yards. The first shot was just behind the heart, in the lungs - not, of course, that that had any immediate effect; the second (I freely admit, a badly-placed flyer) broke his spine just in front of the hips. That, however, was enough to break the charge, and he came down 8 yards from the PH (who, in the meantime, having fired himself, had taken a step backwards, tripped and was sitting on his bum). The benefits of having a double rifle.

My own takeaways from the experience are, firstly, that Mr. Murphy's law holds good; and, secondly, that in that final charge - which happens very quickly - it is imperative both to (try to) place your shots and stitch the air with lead: but these requirements are, by their nature, contradictory. But, as I say, I am no expert.

This, incidentally, took place at the Mabalabala game ranch in the Limpopo. For all the criticism of such establishments - not from me - the experience was authentic enough for my taste.

 

[uplander01]

I haven't hunted buff with double yet, but will be in 2025. But I have put 3 buffalo on the ground with bolt rifles. The plan whether a bolt or double is of course to be close and put the 1st shot where it needs to go, recover from recoil, and if necessary and possible put one on target again, keep reloading. If follow up is necessary, I will have had the discussion with my PH ahead of time that the goal is to be safe and make the ol' boy dead. I just know that the my PH, I've hunted a fair bit with him, will always default to trying to get me in position to finish the job if possible.

 

[zephyr]

10 Seconds?? The beauty of a double is you should be able to get that second shot off inside of 2-3 seconds and have the gun reloaded by 10 seconds max

 

[Sika98k]

I’m certainly no expert in this area, but I’m interested in people’s thoughts.

On elephant, if they turn away, as they usually do, I imagine it’s best to get as many holes in the thing as possible, as quickly as possible. If they don’t turn away, you have an immediate problem, and it’s probably best to get shooting. In fact, with elephant, I can’t think of too many scenarios where delaying the second shot would be a good idea.

With buffalo, they often disappear very quickly after one shot. It’s also possible during recoil recovery to lose track of exactly which animal was hit the first time. Two wounded buffalo would be a rather dicey scenario….. If after the first shot the buffalo was basically standing there, I’d be inclined to shoot again, but would also be listening to my PH.

Of course, the animal’s buddies might also decide to join the battle, irrespective of the intentions of the first target.

Two wounded buffalo would also be a rather expensive scenario !

 

[deewayne2003]

Zero buffalo experience, and last month was my first Safari in Zimbabwe for tuskless with my .470ne double and the PH was armed with a .458Lott Kimber Caprivi.

My PH gave me the following instructions during our pre hunt discussion.....

1. If we get charged and need a warning shot I'll tell you "WARNING SHOT" so you can shoot one over her head because you have 2 barrels and I only have the one.

2. We're going to avoid a frontal brain shot if possible and unless you feel 100% confident in a side brain shot I want you to give her both barrels on the shoulder BOOM BOOM!

Then 2 days later there we are, tuskless at 11 paces quartering to me with over a dozen elephant in close proximity and BOOM I hit her in the shoulder and she didn't move so I knew I broke her shoulder and as quickly as possible BOOM hit her again in the shoulder. I reloaded and she was fading but still on her feet and I wanted to end this so BOOM I hit her in the forehead level with the broomstick line and brained her.

Postmortem revealed that shots #1&2 had both hit the heart and #3 hit the brain.

Someone once said - "There are many levels of wounded, but there is only one level of DEAD."

Point being, no matter how well the first shot seems to be - If the animal is still on its feet KEEP SHOOTING!

 

[Niklas]

Just had this discussion with my “back-up guy” to clarify for our upcoming trip (given that it will be approved by the PH) that I expect that everyone pitches in IF needed. I will take the first shot then it is about ending a potential suffering.

 

[Nyati]

Basically what @mark-hunter said.

On my buff, there was no need for a second shot, my neck shot killed him instantly.

On my hippo, the outfitter said, you and your backup just keep shooting, as no one can stop a hippo on land with just one shot.

 

[Tanks]

On this one, a frontal brain, I took two shots back to back.

This one. a side brain, no second shot as he dropped out of sight, though PH said "shoot him again".

 

[Tanks]

...

On my hippo, the outfitter said, you and your backup just keep shooting, as no one can stop a hippo on land with just one shot.

This guy seems to be able to do it on a regular basis.

 

[Inline6]

Looking at my video of my lion hunt. First shot broke, reloaded (R8) in .0068 seconds. 2nd shot broke at 2.72sec. That was due to waiting for the angle of the second shot.

That was watching the video and using a stop watch to figure out the times.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I will be going after my second buffalo in October, this time with my 450/400 double. I will only take the shot if it is a broadside opportunity, close, and I am fairly certain of heart and two lungs being hit. If at all possible I plan to get the second shot into him immediately. The whole point of the second barrel is immediate followup. Accurate placement of the second shot is highly unlikely, but a hit anywhere is better than not taking the shot.
If that can be pulled off I think I will have done my best.

 

[mark-hunter]

On my hippo, the outfitter said, you and your backup just keep shooting, as no one can stop a hippo on land with just one shot.

I will keep this lesson in mind!

 

[sureshot375]

Double or not, you should geta second shot into the animal as soon as possible. Typically, there won't be much time to think about it.

This doesn't always happen for a number of reasons. Frequently the vegetation does not allow for an immediate follow-up. Other times the eruption of non-target animals makes it unsafe to throw additional lead in that general direction.

More often than not when you hear PH's urging the second shot it's because the client is somewhat lost in the moment and looking at what is going on rather than getting their head back down on the gun for a follow up.

 

[Tanks]

...
This doesn't always happen for a number of reasons. Frequently the vegetation does not allow for an immediate follow-up. Other times the eruption of non-target animals makes it unsafe to throw additional lead in that general direction.
...

Yep. On my last buffalo, a double lung shot, I did have an opportunity for another broadside when it turned and was running in the other direction. I held off as there were other buffalo behind it, I did not want to chance the bullet going through him and hitting one of the others.