Thoughts on the use of a Pederzoli Kodiak .50 sxs muzzle loader : 370gn Maxi-balls for plains game hunting?

[C.W. Richter]

The 45 cal and 50 cal are the most popular all around do all calibers. The 40 cal and 54 cal are probably the second most popular calibers. The 40 cal for deer and small game and the 54 cal for deer, boar, bears, elk, and moose. The 36 cal and the 58 calclose third most popular. The 36 cal for small game and the 58 cal by those that want something bigger than a 45, 50, 54 cal for NA big game and a separate small game rifle in 30 to 40 cal.



Please clarify....as it depends on how tight the bore is cut, depends on how thick the patch to ball diameter is needed.

2 Ball sizes for the .50 cal: .490 and .495. For proper fit a .010 to .015 patch for the .490 dia ball and For the .495 ball a .010 patch does the job. As the rifling wears down though years of shooting a thicker patch is used.

Buffalo and cast bullets don't require patching as they are bore size.

Those that shoot sabots, usually modern inline shooters, are using a .44 cal (.429 or .430 dia.) or .45 cal. (.451 dia.) bullet depending on the thickness of the plastic sabot.

.45 cal muzzleloaders use .440 or .445 diameter ball using the same standard thicknesses of patching, .010 or .015.



The velocity and energy of the maxi ball and the better Buffalo bullet, has been killing deer, black bear, grizzly bear, elk, moose, and pretty much every other big game North American big game for over 200 years. Making both .45 cal and the .50 cal rifles perfectly suitable for PG and DG, with exception of elephant, in Africa.



Now I'm going to have to chronograph my hunting loads. Something I have never done. I doubt if my muzzle velocities out of my Hawkens rifles using a 70 grain volume weight charge of FFFg exceeds 1700 to 1800 fps range.

My comfort limit is 100 yards using iron sights.

A 50 cal sabot bullet is 45 cal. (i.e. modern Barnes ML bullets that one should use in Africa. There are other premium ML bullets as well, but they're all 45s inside a plastic sleeve that effectively ups the diameter to that of the 50 cal bore.) Also why you get the increased V. 2,450-2,750 fps is possible in the modern muzzleloaders, using the aforementioned bullets.

 

[Dirtdart]

Not exactly the same set up as yours Gert but close enough to give you an idea of what to expect as far as velocity is concerned.

 

[Ridge Runner]

A 50 cal sabot bullet is 45 cal. (i.e. modern Barnes ML bullets that one should use in Africa. There are other premium ML bullets as well, but they're all 45s inside a plastic sleeve that effectively ups the diameter to that of the 50 cal bore.) Also why you get the increased V. 2,450-2,750 fps is possible in the modern muzzleloaders, using the aforementioned bullets.

Your information has merit if the OP's topic was about Modern Day Inline rifles. But....

Modern (Inline) Muzzleloarders. Shooting 150 to 200 grain charge of pellet formed powder and 209 primers.

Modern Inlines are a different subject. Comparing apples to oranges when discussing sidelocks.

1. The OP's subject matter is a Sidelock, Double Rifled barrel, SxS rifle. Not a single barrel Modern Day inline.

2. Side locks are loaded using a By Volume Weight charge using a powder measure.

And Yes some shooters will actually pre measure, scale weigh, their powder charges. Which is another subject.

And Yes some traditional shooters will pour small amounts of loose powder down their barrel before loading powder pellets as a way to ignite the pellets using "caps".

3. Sidelocks require "flint" or "caps": 2 different subjects. Since the OP is discussing a sidelock "cap" gun. There is the focus of conversation.

"Caps" meaning types of: Musket, #10, #11. Not using 209 primers. Or other types of "technically muzzle loading" firearms and using smokeless modern reloading powders.

Although it has been known to happen; Musket, #10, and #11 caps are not reliable, " hot enough", by themselves to ignite pellet powder.

Other types of muzzle loading firearms are a third and totally different subject. Comparing apples, oranges, and tomatoes (a fruit or vegetable).

A forth category are smoothebores. Again not part of this discussion.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Watch any of the older, late 80s/early 90s movies re: muzzleloader hunting (and equipment used, performance) in Africa. Supplies will be an issue and you'll be re-sighting in country. PG v. DG a big difference, obviously. All that said, I know many PG/DG have been taken by using the legs of cast iron pots as projectiles, fired out of makeshift civil war muzzleloaders.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I managed to purchase the

.50 Caliber Flat Base Bullet - 425gr with a .50 wad​

Bushveldt Gamestalker Bullets .50 caliber 395gr (hollow base)​

​

​

Hollow base bullets have always "intrigued" me.

I've cussed them like a sailor denied payday shore leave after 6 months at sea, ever since I was first given a few to test.

I have seen a variety of shooters, each using their own recipe, shooting these mini and maxi ball bullets accurately (~2 to 4 inch groups) to 150 yards.

I tested about every recipe I was offered, and a few of my own. Looked like I was shooting buckshot at and beyond 50 yards. The perverbial barn wall at 100 yards.

Went back to my trusted flat base bullets and patched ball. At least when I was outside the 6 inch black ring I knew to cuss the shooter and blame shooter's error.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Not exactly the same set up as yours Gert but close enough to give you an idea of what to expect as far as velocity is concerned.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Dirtdart, thank you kindly, I will study this load data..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Hollow base bullets have always "intrigued" me.

I've cussed them like a sailor denied payday shore leave after 6 months at sea, ever since I was first given a few to test.

I have seen a variety of shooters, each using their own recipe, shooting these mini and maxi ball bullets accurately (~2 to 4 inch groups) to 150 yards.

I tested about every recipe I was offered, and a few of my own. Looked like I was shooting buckshot at and beyond 50 yards. The perverbial barn wall at 100 yards.

Went back to my trusted flat base bullets and patched ball. At least when I was outside the 6 inch black ring I knew to cuss the shooter and blame shooter's error.

Ridge Runner, thank you for your input. Yes, my aim is to use the flat base bullets with a 3mm felt wad smearing the outer rim of the felt wad with lube.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I managed to acquire membership at a shooting range, with a lot of time on my hands I will get a lot of hours shooting and work loads up, as well as chronograph the loads.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I am sure I will end nearly at that load, mine being a .50 cal, I will load 110Ggn FFG /425gn bullet with a felt wad.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Not exactly the same set up as yours Gert but close enough to give you an idea of what to expect as far as velocity is concerned.

I am sure I will end nearly at that load, mine being a .50 cal, I will load 110Ggn FFG /425gn bullet with a felt wad.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I'm sorry to chime irrelevance here .. but I've always loved they're:

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I'm sorry to chime irrelevance here .. but I've always loved they're:

View attachment 618084

You are more than welcome..Daniel, please parttake in the discussion I got my .50 Pederzoli from a great friend, this one already have been drill/tapped but I will never fit a scope....

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Not a muzzle loader but still shooting black powder ..
11.15x60R /Mauser 43

 

[Dirtdart]

Supplies will be an issue and you'll be re-sighting in country.

The OP has access to all of the black powder he can burn but not all of us have that luxury when in Africa.

Powder, smokeless or black is only transported by means of ground or ship. I am told that the retailers in Namibia get together and when their combined orders are large enough to fill a container that order will eventually make it to a port in country. I was able to arrange (WELL in advance) to have a can of FFg delivered to a shop for me to pick up once in country.

I couldn't tell any difference between the Wano from Germany or the US made GOEX that I had been shooting. I believe that the black powder that Graf & Sons label is the same Wano but I didn't know that at the time or that is what I would have worked up my loads with. I use RWS percussion caps at home but CCI brand was what I was able to source in Namibia. I found that humorous.

I believe that with enough notice you could source shotgun primers and have a good chance of arranging to have whatever powder works best in one of those "modern" muzzleloaders.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Ridge Runner, thank you for your input. Yes, my aim is to use the flat base bullets with a 3mm felt wad smearing the outer rim of the felt wad with lube.View attachment 618082

Can you get prelubed wads?

Only theoretical to me, as different shooters' claim different reasons for using prelubed vs dry wads. I use both, but prefer prelubed wads.

As for any difference in accuracy shooting prelube vs dry; to me they are both equally accurate.

I also follow a few other, more experienced shooters' wisdom to "season" my firearm barrels.

Take the following for what it's worth.....

These prelubed wads have a lube soaked into them; ie Ox Yoke brand contains the yellow Bore Butter (another topic). These prelubed wads help to "season" the barrel and reduce fouling build up and make cleaning the barrel easier.

Note: I swab clean my barrels after 5 shots. Competition shooters clean their bores or at least swab their bores after 1 to 3 shots.

At the end of my range practice, usually after shooting 50 plus rounds per firearm I clean my firearms using: wet wipes cut into strips till the powder no longer comes out in chucks. Then use a cotton swab/mop saturated in solvent to loosen any heavy caked in residue, followed by using a bronze bore brush with solvent to loosen remaining residue, a 1 to5 dry patches, followed by a few more strips of wet wipes, another couple of passes down the barrel with the solvent mop, 2 or 3 more dry patches and finally 2 patches saturated with Bore Butter to coat the inside of the barrel.

After cleaning the interior of the lock(s) and the exterior of the firearm, I apply a modest, little heavier than a thin or light, coating of Bore Butter over all the metal parts. The interior of the lock(s) is brushed in using a soft toothbrush and the coating of Bore Butter is lighter than what is applied to the exterior of the firearm.

After cleaning the nipples, using a small amount of Bore Butter applied with a cotton Q-tip, I apply bore Butter to the threads of the nipple and drum to act as an anti seize.

Having said all that. I have found the prelubed wads do help with cleaning vs "dry" wads in my rifled guns. In my smoothbores there are some differences/ benefits depending if I'm shooting shot recipes, patch and ball, or conicals.

Recipe for prelube wads:

On a quart of gallon size baggie: fill the baggie to approximately 1/2 full or wads. Next squeeze approximately 2 - 4 ounces respectively of lube: recommend Bore Butter. Shave baggie vigorously to evenly coat all the wads, USE CAUTION: Not to crush or break apart the wads.
If needed; sparingly add more lube into baggie until each wad is lubed.
Leave wads in baggie until ready to use.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Not a muzzle loader but still shooting black powder ..
11.15x60R /Mauser 43 View attachment 618092

Nothing wrong at all with a fine black powder repeater cartridge gun.

Better if it were a Remington, or Sharps.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Can you get prelubed wads?

Only theoretical to me, as different shooters' claim different reasons for using prelubed vs dry wads. I use both, but prefer prelubed wads.

As for any difference in accuracy shooting prelube vs dry; to me they are both equally accurate.

I also follow a few other, more experienced shooters' wisdom to "season" my firearm barrels.

Take the following for what it's worth.....

These prelubed wads have a lube soaked into them; ie Ox Yoke brand contains the yellow Bore Butter (another topic). These prelubed wads help to "season" the barrel and reduce fouling build up and make cleaning the barrel easier.

Note: I swab clean my barrels after 5 shots. Competition shooters clean their bores or at least swab their bores after 1 to 3 shots.

At the end of my range practice, usually after shooting 50 plus rounds per firearm I clean my firearms using: wet wipes cut into strips till the powder no longer comes out in chucks. Then use a cotton swab/mop saturated in solvent to loosen any heavy caked in residue, followed by using a bronze bore brush with solvent to loosen remaining residue, a 1 to5 dry patches, followed by a few more strips of wet wipes, another couple of passes down the barrel with the solvent mop, 2 or 3 more dry patches and finally 2 patches saturated with Bore Butter to coat the inside of the barrel.

After cleaning the interior of the lock(s) and the exterior of the firearm, I apply a modest, little heavier than a thin or light, coating of Bore Butter over all the metal parts. The interior of the lock(s) is brushed in using a soft toothbrush and the coating of Bore Butter is lighter than what is applied to the exterior of the firearm.

After cleaning the nipples, using a small amount of Bore Butter applied with a cotton Q-tip, I apply bore Butter to the threads of the nipple and drum to act as an anti seize.

Having said all that. I have found the prelubed wads do help with cleaning vs "dry" wads in my rifled guns. In my smoothbores there are some differences/ benefits depending if I'm shooting shot recipes, patch and ball, or conicals.

Recipe for prelube wads:

On a quart of gallon size baggie: fill the baggie to approximately 1/2 full or wads. Next squeeze approximately 2 - 4 ounces respectively of lube: recommend Bore Butter. Shave baggie vigorously to evenly coat all the wads, USE CAUTION: Not to crush or break apart the wads.
If needed; sparingly add more lube into baggie until each wad is lubed.
Leave wads in baggie until ready to use.

Thank you kindly, all this information is just great

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Nothing wrong at all with a fine black powder repeater cartridge gun.

Better if it were a Remington, or Sharps.

The Sharps target rifles here in South Africa is extremely expensive, even more expensive that a high quality hunting rifle . For the usual hunter the Sharps are way out his budget.

 

[Ridge Runner]

The Sharps target rifles here in South Africa is extremely expensive, even more expensive that a high quality hunting rifle . For the usual hunter the Sharps are way out his budget.

Out of my budget too.

At first I just drooled over seeing it hanging on the wall of a LGS. Then I was forced to fondle it when offered a more than acceptable marked down price. It was a production version of Tom Selleck's Quigley Down Under rifle. I didn't fondle it for long as that rifle weighed a perverbial ton. Way too much weight for me for a hunting rifle.

Did come really too close to buying a saddle ring cavalry carbine in 45-70 BP cartridge, and had the 2 flintlocks been right handed they would have made the list also. But I had to resist all temptations if I wanted to keep my next year hunts.

On the up side I did come away with several other nice firearms.