Thought Provoking Question: How Many Of You Would Use A Smaller Calibre If It Were Legal?

[Major Khan]

Friend Ponton
I would gladly use my 35 Whelen loaded with either 275 grain Woodleigh PPSP or 310 round nose, but would be hesitant about using in on a male guar unless I had no other option. Like yourself I would prefer to have a 9.3x74 or 375 H&H double. Mad I may be but crazy I'm not I believe the guar is to temperamental to use any thing smaller.
Keep safe and well my friend
Enjoy your time with friend Kawshick Rahman hunting
Bob Nelson

Thank you so much for your informative insight , Bob . You are indeed an extremely rational and sensible gentleman. Do not use anything to hunt a gaur bison which propels a bullet lighter than 500 grains . For the purposes of my survey... I shall be placing you in the " No" category .

By the way , there is a little bit of information which you Australian gentle men could perhaps assist me with , in regards to a cartridge manufactured by Winchester Australia .

Have you any personal experience with Winchester Australia 's 12 Bore AAA cartridges ? I purchased 2 boxes today from a fire arms store which had them lying around on the counter . Are they any good ?

 

[Major Khan]

As has been said many times on AH shot placement is everything. If the only rifle I own is a 7x57 and I was forced to hunt DG I would take brain shots not chest shots. I believe this was the case for many of the Boers that settled South Africa and the reason why the 7x57 is so popular in SA. Professional cull hunters are know for taking head shots with small caliber rifles rather than chest shots with larger rifles. So would I use a smaller caliber than a 375 to hunt DG, in a word, NO, thankfully I live in a time and place where access to large caliber firearms is nothing more than a 30 minute drive, a credit card swipe and a few minutes of paper work. I realize that a 375 H&H with a high quality 300 grain bullet will take anything that walks the earth but I personally like my DG rifle to start with a 4 and end with things like Rigby, Express or Jeffery.

Thank you so much for you informative insight , Mr. Lambart . I am much inclined to agree with you . I have read a few books about professional cullers of African cow and calf elephants ... who use 7.62×51 mm NATO calibre FN FAL rifles for culling ( Loaded with 147 grain military surplus solid metal covered spitzer style pointed tip cartridges ) .
For the purposes of my survey ... I shall be placing you in the " No " category.

 

[Major Khan]

I don’t think I would go below the the 375 for any dangerous game, however I haven’t hunted any DG either. I know shot placement is critical with any caliber, but wouldn’t a larger heavier bullet in the same place as a a smaller lighter bullet be more effective? (Provided bullet construction was the correct type for the game being hunted)

Thank you so much for your informative insight , Master Smith . For the purposes of my survey ... I shall be placing you in the " No " category.

 

[Major Khan]

I would not feel undergunned with a .338WM

Thank you so much for your informative insight , Nyati. For the purposes of my survey... I shall be placing you in the " Yes " category .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Thank you so much for your informative insight , Bob . You are indeed an extremely rational and sensible gentleman. Do not use anything to hunt a gaur bison which propels a bullet lighter than 500 grains . For the purposes of my survey... I shall be placing you in the " No" category .

By the way , there is a little bit of information which you Australian gentle men could perhaps assist me with , in regards to a cartridge manufactured by Winchester Australia .
View attachment 342392 View attachment 342393 View attachment 342394
Have you any personal experience with Winchester Australia 's 12 Bore AAA cartridges ? I purchased 2 boxes today from a fire arms store which had them lying around on the counter . Are they any good ?

Friend Ponton
Yes I have used the AAA cartridge in 12 gauge. They are extremely effective on foxes and smaller pigs. For bigger pigs I prefer 00/SG buckshot. Winchester used to make shotgun cartridges and 22 rimfire cartridges in Australia but I am unsure if they still do. Winchester Australia has stopped importing their reloading powders into Australia along with my two favorites cfe223 and superformance.
I have included a photo of my favorite close range pig load for you
Keep safe and well my friend
Bob Nelson

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Maj Khan, I've never hunted dangerous game (it's on my list to do), so what I'm about to tell you is what I read. Mr. Roy Weatherby used a 257 Weatherby to take a cape buffalo, and killed it with one shot. I believe (if my memory serves me well) he was trying to prove that it could be done. I'll have to check my book Weatherby: The Man. the Gun. the Legend.

PARA 45
You are correct and he also shot a large tree to show how effective the 300 was but his best stunt was to load a 300 Weatherby with a projectile already in the barrel. This was done to show give strong the MarkV was.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think this question has a different set of answers depending upon the decade of which we speak. For instance, a lot of buffalo were killed by the 30-06 between the wars. Quite a few were also wounded. Regardless of the quality of the bullet, I suspect the same outcomes would occur today. The .338 Win Mag is a very different beast. With a 250 gr TSX or A-Frame, I am confident it would handily dispatch any buffalo in Africa. After all, the 270 gr .375 has become very popular as an all around bullet in recent years. And, back in the day, the 318 Westley Richards, with its amazing 250 gr solid, accounted for everything on four legs. It had a well-earned reputation as the best penetrating bullet on the continent and was preferred “brainer” by many for elephant. With today’s readily adjustable scopes one could make a three load safari (250 gr SP/Solid and lighter SP) for everything. It would have, potentially, a bit more reach than a .375 and virtually the same penetration in 250 as the .375’s 270/300 gr bullets.

All that said, I’ll stick with the old Holland & Holland.

Red Leg
In the early days of buffalo hunting many buffalo were killed with cut down 303s and 44/40s by crazy men on horseback. This was done by riding up on the animal and shooting it from point blank range. Thousands were killed this way as well as a few hunters.
In the late 1940s my father hunted buffalo and crocodiles with a 303 and considered it to be more than adequate, but he was an exceptional shot.
Not something I would like to try.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Rem1903a3]

Dear Forum Members ,
As part of a survey for a new article which I am writing for African Hunting Forums .... I would like all of you gentle men to think and answer a question :
We all know that the .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre is the minimum legally permissible calibre for most species of dangerous game in most countries of Africa .
Back when I used to be a professional shikaree , working for Allwyn Cooper Limited in Nagpur , India ( from 1961 to 1970 ) , we had similar rules in 13 of the 30 states of India .
The .375 Holland & Holland magnum was the bare minimum legally permissible calibre for international client shikarees to use , on royal Bengal tigers , water buffaloes and gaur bison .
Below , as a reference ... I have provided a scan of a page of my copy of our " Professional Shikaree's Regulation Book For Uttar Pradesh ( 1968 Edition ) . Observe Section 14.

View attachment 341950
Now , my question to all of you is this :
Assuming that there were no legal regulations in place ... how many of you would opt for a smaller calibre ?

I personally have mixed feelings about such legal regulations . When I was guiding clients in the 17 " unregulated " states of India ... I used to see my clients successfully lay low dozens of royal Bengal tigers by using .338 Winchester magnum calibre or 9.3 × 62 mm Mauser calibre bolt rifles or 9.3 × 74 mm Rimmed calibre double barreled rifles . Not once did any of these calibres prove to be inadequate in the hands of my clients .
Infact , countless of my clients even successfully dispatched 2000 pound gaur bison with these calibres with utter impunity .
My client who took the most royal Bengal tigers ( 1 taken every year from 1964 to 1970 ) used a .30-06 Springfield calibre sporterized Enfield Model 1917 bolt rifle , loaded with 220 grain Winchester Silver Tip soft point cartridges . He absolutely despised the recoil of the .375 Holland & Holland magnum , but proved to be more than a match for 500 pound male royal Bengal tigers , armed with a .30-06 Springfield calibre rifle .

The smallest calibre rifle ever used by 1 of my clients to successfully dispatch a royal Bengal tiger ... was a .243 Winchester calibre Savage Model 110 bolt rifle , loaded with 105 grain Winchester soft point cartridges.
Of course , attempting such a feat is really " pushing your luck " .
View attachment 342063

On the other end of the spectrum .... there IS something called " Too Little Power " . In 1965, an American client of another Indian shikar outfitters had actually lost his life by attempting to hunt a 500 pound male royal Bengal tiger , with a .220 Swift calibre pre 64 Winchester Model 70 .

I also noticed that the smaller the calibre being utilized... the more critical shot placement becomes . I personally observed during my 10 year career that , while the 9.3×62 mm Mauser calibre and the .476 Westley Richards calibre are BOTH capable of killing a 2000 pound male gaur bison ...
shot placement needs to be far more critical with the 9.3×62 mm Mauser calibre .
What are each of your thoughts on this subject ? Would any of you opt for a calibre smaller than the .375 Holland & Holland magnum to use against dangerous game , if the law allowed it ? What would you opt for and what animal would it be ?
Speaking only for myself ... I would personally opt for a 9.3x74 mm Rimmed calibre double barreled side by side rifle for use against royal Bengal tigers .
Your thoughts and opinions will be warmly welcomed , and shall be used in the survey of my upcoming article.
Yours sincerely,
Major Poton Khan ( Retired )

I always thought a .300H&H with a 200grain nosler partition , woodliegh protected point or a Norma oryx ,should handle any thing with good shoot placement

 

[Tanks]

... With today’s readily adjustable scopes one could make a three load safari (250 gr SP/Solid and lighter SP) for everything. It would have, potentially, a bit more reach than a .375 and virtually the same penetration in 250 as the .375’s 270/300 gr bullets...

That is actually my dilemma for my .458 B&M. With 258 grain tipped raptor at 2,850 fps, it is good for all plains game I intend to shoot while leaving the 420 grain raptor and 450 grain solid for DG. With a Swarovski Z6i BT I can have one setting for the 420/450 combo shooting the same POA/POI and the rest of the settings for the 258 grainer going out to 300 yards. In reality one rifle for any game most of Africa.

If I can get the .500 NE regulated in time that is what I probably will do. Otherwise I will take the .375 H&H for backup and plains game and use the .458 only for DG.

Choices were simpler when we did not have as many options for bullets and optics.

 

[spike.t]

That is actually my dilemma for my .458 B&M. With 258 grain tipped raptor at 2,850 fps, it is good for all plains game I intend to shoot while leaving the 420 grain raptor and 450 grain solid for DG. With a Swarovski Z6i BT I can have one setting for the 420/450 combo shooting the same POA/POI and the rest of the settings for the 258 grainer going out to 300 yards. In reality one rifle for any game most of Africa.

If I can get the .500 NE regulated in time that is what I probably will do. Otherwise I will take the .375 H&H for backup and plains game and use the .458 only for DG.

Choices were simpler when we did not have as many options for bullets and optics.

What's wrong with your 500 that you can't get it regulated..... Must have been regulated with some brand of factory ammunition.......

 

[Tanks]

What's wrong with your 500 that you can't get it regulated..... Must have been regulated with some brand of factory ammunition.......

Nothing wrong with it, it is regulated with Hornady DGS under 2". I want to work out loads that will regulate with Cutting Edge Bullets. So, just need to play around with various loads. I know specific loads that worked in a friend's Heym 88B which was also regulated with Hornady, so that is a good starting point for mine.

 

[spike.t]

Nothing wrong with it, it is regulated with Hornady DGS under 2". I want to work out loads that will regulate with Cutting Edge Bullets. So, just need to play around with various loads. I know specific loads that worked in a friend's Heym 88B which was also regulated with Hornady, so that is a good starting point for mine.

Ok just sounded like you had some issues...

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Thank you so much for your informative insight , Webley . Your opinion is interesting ( categorically speaking ) . You do not endorse the smaller calibres ,yet you would feel comfortable using the 9.3×62 mm Mauser calibre or the 9.3×74 mm Rimmed calibre ( which is still technically below the pre determined .375 Holland & Holland magnum limit ) . For the purposes of my survey ...I shall be placing you in the " Yes " category .

That's fine, since you'd be technically correct! A difference of .2 mm is, after all, a smaller calibre bullet even if the cartridge itself is capable of the same power! In some ways your question is rather like the argument over using 5.56 vs 7.62 vs .30-06 in the US military.

The .30-06 had a good reputation for power and range, the 7.62 NATO was smaller in overall size but used the same calibre bullet and was still extremely effective, and the 5.56 NATO was simply inadequate in many respects when it first appeared (smaller case size plus smaller-calibre bullet). I'd say that since the 9.3 calibres are capable of equivalent power with a slightly smaller bullet, it's not incomparable to the ability of a 7.62 NATO cartridge to replicate the performance of the .30-06 using a smaller case and equal bullet, while a 5.56 NATO cartridge versus a hot .30-06 is roughly similar to, say, a 7mm Mauser vs a .375 H&H. Can a 7mm do the job? Yes, with correct application (just as a 5.56 NATO can). Can a .375 H&H do the job better? Absolutely (and a .30-06 will do it better than a 5.56).

(Minor edits for content.)

 

[Panther Shooter]

Thank you so much for your informative insight , Bob . You are indeed an extremely rational and sensible gentleman. Do not use anything to hunt a gaur bison which propels a bullet lighter than 500 grains . For the purposes of my survey... I shall be placing you in the " No" category .

By the way , there is a little bit of information which you Australian gentle men could perhaps assist me with , in regards to a cartridge manufactured by Winchester Australia .
View attachment 342392 View attachment 342393 View attachment 342394
Have you any personal experience with Winchester Australia 's 12 Bore AAA cartridges ? I purchased 2 boxes today from a fire arms store which had them lying around on the counter . Are they any good ?

Major , Sir
I agree with @Bob Nelson 35Whelen . I use nothing but Winchester Australia’s 12 Bore 2 3/4 inch AAA cartridges in my 12 Bore William Wellington Greener side by side wildfowl gun for hunting greylag geese and for hunting Kakar Deer , during beats . They have never given me even the slightest reason to complain , even though these are all 32 gram cartridges , as opposed to standard 36 gram 2 3/4 inch cartridges.

Unfortunately , I believe that Winchester Australia has ceased manufacturing cartridges of AAA shot size a few years ago. Fortunately , I have been stockpiling Winchester Australia’s 12 Bore AAA cartridges for the last 15 years . I purchased them whenever I found any boxes in any firearms shops which I visited. Our local firearms shop in Dacca ( The one right near my office ) used to have old stocks of Winchester Australia’s 12 Bore AAA cartridges even until last year. I purchased every last box , which the shop had remaining . You are most fortunate to have found two unopened boxes of old stock in the Sylhet firearms shop. You took the sensible course of action , by purchasing them immediately . I do believe that I have fortunately stockpiled enough cartridges to last me at least half a decade . After that , I suppose that I shall commence using Lyalvale Express 12 Bore AAA cartridges. However , I genuinely doubt that Lyalvale Express can ever make 12 Bore AAA cartridges with the quality of Winchester Australia.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Well @Tanks I'd reply to your comment about the .30-06 being inadequate with an anecdote about a fellow who used a 7x57 and some comments about modern bullets, but I'm at least 2 pages and from the looks of it a few cases of an odd sized buckshot behind, so cheers!

 

[Major Khan]

@Major Khan, a very interesting question.

Speaking only for myself, I don't expect I would go with a smaller calibre than I would otherwise use, if it were legal, for two reasons.

The first reason is entirely emotional. I have wonderful rifles in .416 Rigby, .404 Jeffery and .375 H&H. I really enjoy shooting such classical calibres in the field, so I wouldn't go to something smaller just because I could. I should mention I also have a very nice Rigby .275, so I have a reasonable option, but for larger game, I enjoy bringing out the bigger guns, so to speak.

My second reason is practical and based on my own experience. Like many here, I have hunted dangerous game and I have seen the impact of my own shots as well as those of others with whom I have hunted. I have no doubt that you can kill a lion with a .275 and indeed an elephant (WMD Bell certainly proved that, if it needed proving). But I have seen the impact that a .416 makes on an elephant, for example, as compared to even a .375, and I would say that 33% more lead makes a meaningful difference. Comparing 400 grain .416's to a 185 grain .300 Win Mag and the difference becomes even greater. The larger calibers initially hit harder (much harder in most cases) and the impact of that shock on any animal is not to be underestimated. For example, I believe a .275 will handily make its way to a lion's heart and kill him. But the larger calibre may well plant him long enough that you can get off a second shot, if need be, rather than face a charging animal which doesn't yet know he is dead. I have been charged by a wounded leopard, and have no desire to repeat the experience with a lion.

The larger and more powerful bullets will also give more margin of error, so that if an initial shot is less than perfect, or a bone is in the way of a vital organ, be it brain, lungs or heart, you can smash through the obstacle and still make a killing shot. For those who insist on being sceptical, I cannot prove this - I have never run a controlled test, on two living animals of identical size and weight, side by side, to be able to demonstrate conclusively the impact of two shots of different calibres, at exactly the same distance, at exactly the same place. But my experience is enough for me.

I would not take this to extremes, at least not for myself. I have fired a .458 Lott, as well as a .450 Rigby, and frankly I did not enjoy them as much as I had hoped I would! The lower .400's give me plenty of margin for error and allow me to be a more ethical hunter, I believe. That is what I'm after, so I will stick with those calibres.

Thank you so much for your informative insight, Hank. It is excellent to know that ( while you do endorse the larger calibres ) ... you are well aware of your own limitations. For the purposes of this survey... I shall be placing you in the “ No” category.
By the way , correct me if I am mistaken ... but did the .416 Rigby calibre not originally utilize a 410 grain bullet ?

 

[BigJohnx13]

I haven't read all the replies. Some thought to consider. We all know shot placement, caliber, bullet construction and speed is important to take down an animal. Get one of this factors wrong and you have trouble or no animal.

The hunting laws was drafted many many moons ago. As with rifles and ammunition the same with bows and arrows technology has changed a lot over the last few decade and is still changing today, yet the law was written too long ago for performance of old equipment of yesteryear and hasn't change to adapt to new technology. There is now equipment (ammo and bows/arrows) that does not fall the under "lawful" hunting category but will outperform the "lawful " equipment as prescribe by the old laws.

Does a .375 or a .700 kill an animal more dead than a 30.06 or .308 for example. We all know dead is dead. But what happens when the shot is a wound shot and not a kill shot. Will the bigger caliber incapacitate the wounded animal more than a smaller caliber. Probable yes. If the new technology smaller caliber ammo outperform the bigger old caliber will it then incapacitate more than the bigger old caliber. Probable yes.

Will the new technology smaller caliber ammo have the same stopping power as a bigger caliber. Well if it outperform bigger old caliber then probable also yes.

Be safe and have enough gun.
(PS. There is countries that does not have a minimum caliber for dangerous game)

 

[Major Khan]

Two different scenarios.... For actual hunting and first shot then yes have used smaller calibres with no issues.. but will take the 5th as they say in usa on that subject as that's what I had on me at the time... For following up then nope.... 458. Lott ...470 ..500 Ne or 500 Jeffery...whichever the person is happy with...

But an ele with a 275 rigby ....yup would love to do that......

Thank you so much for your informative insight , Spike T . For the purposes of my survey ... I shall be placing you in the “ Yes “ category. Your rationale is most sensible for opting for a larger calibre rifle when a follow up becomes requisite. In follow up situations , the operator is unlikely to be afforded the perfect picked shot ( which he could normally expect for an initial shot on an unsuspecting animal under favorable circumstances ) .

 

[Major Khan]

What an intriguing question. Having only killed one buffalo (375HH and 350gr barnes TSX), I have limited experience with dg but from that experience I can see the merits of minimum caliber. I am a fan of heavy for caliber loads. The bigger it is, the harder it will hit.

As for governing what that minimum should be, I don't necessarily agree with what a caliber alone should be. I think it should be based on animal size and/or weight. Certain calibers for certain weight/size ranges. There is abundant research to determine what is appropriate. I agree with setting 375HH as minimum for elephant and others in that weight/size range. As for buffalo and below, I believe a 9.3x62 is fine. There is very little ballistic difference between it and the 375HH. However, I do believe the 9.3x62 should be absolute minimum for any dg---to be safe(r) and assure cleaner kills.

Another criteria might be muzzle energy. Set a certain level for certain species. If a caliber can acquire the necessary mv, it is legal. Setting minimum levels in anything can be problematic. It is very subjective and one person's opinion can and will differ from others as evidenced by this thread. Practical, in the bush, experience is probably the most realistic determining factor.

Thank you so much for your informative insight, New Boomer. For the purposes of my survey... I shall be placing you in the “ No” category . I would love to see 350 grain bullets for the .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre some day. During our time , only 235 grain , 270 grain and 300 grain bullets were available for the .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre.

 

[Tanks]

Well @Tanks I'd reply to your comment about the .30-06 being inadequate with an anecdote about a fellow who used a 7x57 and some comments about modern bullets, but I'm at least 2 pages and from the looks of it a few cases of an odd sized buckshot behind, so cheers!

What is not known about that fellow with the 7x57 is how many wounded elephants ran away, we'll never know. Also, I believe he was taking specific shots only. Also, the fact that one fellow was able to do it does not mean it is advisable. Would you try to stop an elephant charge at 15 meters with a 30-06? If you would, then you have much bigger balls than I do.