The power of 45-70

I mean if I had an excess of $20K for all four, I wouldn't need to worry about which one I liked most!
@WebleyGreene455
You sound like me. We both have AIDS.
Acquired
Income
Deficiency
Syndrome
Or in layman terms lack of money
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob
 
Reading the comments in this thread, I think some of you might find this interesting. It's a short write up from Randy Garrett of "Garrett Cartridges", on testing conducted on .458" diameter cartridges. There is plenty more testing out there to corroborate his findings if your "Google-fu" is up to the task.



The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

- Randy Garrett
 
I've read parts of that write up before and I can agree with some of the thoughts now as I had a similar experience with my 35 Remington loads ....

When I was doing a lot of pig hunting pretty much several times a week I noticed that my 200g hornady soft points I was loading were passing right through the pigs with little to no expansion , even going through shoulder bone or brain shots , I posted on a forum and others jumped right in and told me to run them faster which I did and sure enough I hardly have one exit a pig now the mushroom and do just as advertised

So what I concluded was if I wanted deeper penetration with that particular bullet I slowed it down , no how that related to knockdown power etc I have no idea but all the pigs I shot were dead where they stood regardless if the bullet passed through or mushroom so is it a mute point?? Idk just something I found playing around with that particular load and velocities
 
Reading the comments in this thread, I think some of you might find this interesting. It's a short write up from Randy Garrett of "Garrett Cartridges", on testing conducted on .458" diameter cartridges. There is plenty more testing out there to corroborate his findings if your "Google-fu" is up to the task.



The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

- Randy Garrett
I remember reading this at the time and thinking the 45-70 was really better somehow than a 458 Lott. But logic prevailed and I learned more and it really comes down to the bullet and the target as to how velocity is going to affect the depth of penetration. If modest velocity was the universal answer, the army would be loading the Abrams shells with Trail Boss.

A bullet that deforms and expands (yes, even a solid may- although it shouldn’t at those velocities) is going to have its penetration reduced compared with one that doesn’t. If the expansion and velocity work out right, slower is going to penetrate better.

The second is the nature of the target. I suspect wet newspaper behaves as a non-Newtonian fluid (Google ooblek for some interesting videos if you aren’t familiar) and high impact velocities essentially turn it into a solid.

Again, nothing against the 45-70 nor the people who choose to use it on dangerous game so long as they understand it. I’m a firm believer that enough is enough: a 45-70 does what it does and if that is enough for what someone wants to do, that’s great. No need for a 460 Weatherby just to punish yourself more. But if low velocity is the way to get deep penetration, why not a 45 Colt handgun? (which, BTW, I have shot broadside through an elk - enough is enough).
 
Good to see the Randy Garrett post again.
Such experimentation does make a worthwhile contribution to the ballistics research needed to clarify what will and will not work on different game.
 
Reading the comments in this thread, I think some of you might find this interesting. It's a short write up from Randy Garrett of "Garrett Cartridges", on testing conducted on .458" diameter cartridges. There is plenty more testing out there to corroborate his findings if your "Google-fu" is up to the task.



The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

- Randy Garrett


Thanks for posting this article, I’m a huge .45-70 fan. I have some Hornaday 500gr softs & solids left over from my .458 days. I’m trying for 1200fps in a nice Ruger #1!
 
@WebleyGreene455
You sound like me. We both have AIDS.
Acquired
Income
Deficiency
Syndrome
Or in layman terms lack of money
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob
Haha well you're not entirely wrong there. I could technically afford all four, or at least my favorite of each. But I'm loathe to dip into my savings account for that when I have enough anguish over whether or not I want to grab the Winchester.
 
"A 450/400 3" NE is a great choice for rebarreling a No.1.

Appropriate for buffalo and ammunition will be available again, when the Ukraine campaign is done.

:cool:

HWL"

Yes, but my 1895 .405 WCF and my .405 DR both can equal the ballistics of the 450/400 AND also accurately fire 210 and 300 grain bullets. The 300 grain North Fork solid bullets handily take water buff, bison, and Cape buff, so the 400 grain Woodies are just another good option for the same rifle.
The 300 grain AMMO is available NOW and the other bullets are available for hand loading.
Decisions, decisions.
I know this,.... and your addiction to the .405 Winchester. ;)

It is a great cartridge and I hunted with a Ruger No.1 and a Belgian double in .405 Winchester.

But you have to run a .405 at high pressure to come close to top .45-70 performance.

And even than it is marginal as a dangerous game number.

The .450-400 3" NE does all this and more with mild pressure, and completely reliable at high temperatures you can be faced in Africa.

I am not an experienced DG hunter, but I would rely on the .450/400 as my personal minimum.


HWL
 
"But you have to run a .405 at high pressure to come close to top .45-70 performance."

Possibly true with some powders, but not with N133.

I use the Pressure Trace II system and found that my .405 400 grain African loads at 2100 fps had a peak pressure of 48,000 psi with TAC powder. This load shot through 40+ inches of buff and out between the front legs.
After the hunt I loaded the same 400 grain woodies to 2100fps with N133 and the peak pressure was less than 38,000 psi ! Not a high pressure for either of my .405 rifles.

For my fellow N133 users and myself this 10,000 to 12,000 psi pressure difference is common. This is common and public knowledge for users of the VV load manuals .
The VV load manual 4th edition states that max pressure for any 45-70 load listed does not exceed 210 MPa which converts to 30,450 psi ! I am currently loading .458 NF 350 SS at that max for .45-70 in both my 1886 .45-90 and my Beretta .45-90 DR. As you know, the 45-90 shoots 45-70 also.

BTW, the A Square manual shows the 3 inch and 3.25 inch 450/400 pressures at 46K and 49 K psi, quite similar to TAC and well above N133 in my .405 rifles for the same velocity .

I purchased my .1895 .405 rifle because it met my needs best and was more affordable than other options. The money saved more than paid for my .405 DR which has turned out to be a fun gun for most big game.

.
 
I know this,.... and your addiction to the .405 Winchester. ;)

It is a great cartridge and I hunted with a Ruger No.1 and a Belgian double in .405 Winchester.

But you have to run a .405 at high pressure to come close to top .45-70 performance.

And even than it is marginal as a dangerous game number.

The .450-400 3" NE does all this and more with mild pressure, and completely reliable at high temperatures you can be faced in Africa.

I am not an experienced DG hunter, but I would rely on the .450/400 as my personal minimum.


HWL
Something I've been wondering since I've joined this site...

What do we mean when we speak of "dangerous game"? Do we use it to refer mainly to Cape buffalo? For me, who isn't interested in a buffalo, "dangerous" is something like a lion or a leopard, or a crocodile. Something capable of eating me. Do others class elephants and hippos in that category?

I ask because if we mostly mean "cape buffalo", then it kind of skews cartridge requirements to deal with a buffalo's anatomy and physiology and not, for example, that of a lion.

I think that might be why the topic of the .45-70's potency keeps coming up. The baseline seems to be "Will it properly kill a buffalo?", which doesn't always apply to "Will it kill the animal I'm after?"

That's just my two cents. I'm in that camp of trying to find info and not always being able to. For my part, I know a .400 Jeffery would probably be suitable for any animal on my list, but so is a .405 Winchester from what I've found. The latter is more affordable and more practical, too. And to be quite fair, for what I personally want, not even bothering with the .40-calibre rifle and only using a .303 and a 9.3x62 would be just fine as far as I can figure.

But I'm still interested in that .45-70/90 (or the .44 bottlenecks) out of a Sharps or a High-Wall, or a Remington-Hepburn or a Martini-Henry if it'll fit, and how it'll do on my want-list. I wonder how we could test it...

~~W.G.455
 
Mr Greene,
As I have posted, the Winchester 1886 45-90 has taken all types large and dangerous game. Mine has taken ele, several buff, bison, leopard, etc. Why not, it shoots 450 grain North Fork FPS at 2150 fps!
The hunter has to use hand loads for the highest performance, but it can also shoot factory 45-70 ammo for lesser game. Two guns in one.
 
Mr Greene,
As I have posted, the Winchester 1886 45-90 has taken all types large and dangerous game. Mine has taken ele, several buff, bison, leopard, etc. Why not, it shoots 450 grain North Fork FPS at 2150 fps!
The hunter has to use hand loads for the highest performance, but it can also shoot factory 45-70 ammo for lesser game. Two guns in one.
Oh yes I thought I'd spoken with you about your .45-90! I have lately been reconsidering the .44-90 Sharps bottleneck. I'm not really sure how it compares, but I'm tempted to convert a Martini-Henry for fun.
 
Something I've been wondering since I've joined this site...

What do we mean when we speak of "dangerous game"? Do we use it to refer mainly to Cape buffalo? For me, who isn't interested in a buffalo, "dangerous" is something like a lion or a leopard, or a crocodile. Something capable of eating me. Do others class elephants and hippos in that category?

I ask because if we mostly mean "cape buffalo", then it kind of skews cartridge requirements to deal with a buffalo's anatomy and physiology and not, for example, that of a lion.

I think that might be why the topic of the .45-70's potency keeps coming up. The baseline seems to be "Will it properly kill a buffalo?", which doesn't always apply to "Will it kill the animal I'm after?"

That's just my two cents. I'm in that camp of trying to find info and not always being able to. For my part, I know a .400 Jeffery would probably be suitable for any animal on my list, but so is a .405 Winchester from what I've found. The latter is more affordable and more practical, too. And to be quite fair, for what I personally want, not even bothering with the .40-calibre rifle and only using a .303 and a 9.3x62 would be just fine as far as I can figure.

But I'm still interested in that .45-70/90 (or the .44 bottlenecks) out of a Sharps or a High-Wall, or a Remington-Hepburn or a Martini-Henry if it'll fit, and how it'll do on my want-list. I wonder how we could test it...

~~W.G.455
I can’t imagine anyone who wouldn’t classify elephant as dangerous game.
 
Something I've been wondering since I've joined this site...

What do we mean when we speak of "dangerous game"? Do we use it to refer mainly to Cape buffalo? For me, who isn't interested in a buffalo, "dangerous" is something like a lion or a leopard, or a crocodile. Something capable of eating me. Do others class elephants and hippos in that category?

I ask because if we mostly mean "cape buffalo", then it kind of skews cartridge requirements to deal with a buffalo's anatomy and physiology and not, for example, that of a lion.

I think that might be why the topic of the .45-70's potency keeps coming up. The baseline seems to be "Will it properly kill a buffalo?", which doesn't always apply to "Will it kill the animal I'm after?"

That's just my two cents. I'm in that camp of trying to find info and not always being able to. For my part, I know a .400 Jeffery would probably be suitable for any animal on my list, but so is a .405 Winchester from what I've found. The latter is more affordable and more practical, too. And to be quite fair, for what I personally want, not even bothering with the .40-calibre rifle and only using a .303 and a 9.3x62 would be just fine as far as I can figure.

But I'm still interested in that .45-70/90 (or the .44 bottlenecks) out of a Sharps or a High-Wall, or a Remington-Hepburn or a Martini-Henry if it'll fit, and how it'll do on my want-list. I wonder how we could test it...

~~W.G.455
@WebleyGreene455
If'n y'all want dangerous game just ask your wife/partner if you can go hunting on their birthday, anniversary or mother's day.
You will then see what a dangerous game that is.
Bob
 
Finally, it is a very personal choice.... and the smaller the rifle, the greater the hero.

My intention is to carry a rifle a bit bigger than probably required.

I never needed it, but it always gave me a good feeling.


HWL
 
What do we mean when we speak of "dangerous game"? Do we use it to refer mainly to Cape buffalo?
I've noticed that too--that's probably because "dangerous" is associated with the Big Five, and out of the Big Five, Cape buffalo is the first or indeed the only that most people will hunt. Rhino hunting is on the wane, elephant is priced out of most hunters' reach, lion and leopard are very specialized hunts, while a good buffalo hunt overlaps the more ambitious end of a plains-game adventure. And other animals like croc and hippo are (at least from what I see and hear) not immediately on the forefront of most people's hunting interests.

I myself am planning for a buffalo hunt in 2023. I have three rifles that are begging to be chosen for the purpose--my do-it-all H&H single shot in .375 Flanged, my .500 WR Farq, and my .450-400 3.25" Army & Navy double. I suspect I will take the first, purely based on my confidence level in it and the availability of components for practicing.

The hunting buddy with whom I'll probably end up going is also mulling over which rifle to take. .45-70 is a caliber with which he has built up an immense amount of confidence, and I've seen him pole-axe game with it at distances at which I myself would be reluctant to shoot. He also loves his .370 SAKO, so the .45-70 may end up staying home. Ultimately, for hunters like us on our first buffalo hunt, we'll go with what our PH advises, since we have no experience of the conditions in which we'll be hunting.
 

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Grz63 wrote on Doug Hamilton's profile.
Hello Doug,
I am Philippe from France and plan to go hunting Caprivi in 2026, Oct.
I have read on AH you had some time in Vic Falls after hunting. May I ask you with whom you have planned / organized the Chobe NP tour and the different visits. (with my GF we will have 4 days and 3 nights there)
Thank in advance, I will appreciate your response.
Merci
Philippe
Grz63 wrote on Moe324's profile.
Hello Moe324
I am Philippe from France and plan to go hunting Caprivi in 2026, Oct.
I have read on AH you had some time in Vic Falls after hunting. May I ask you with whom you have planned / organized the Chobe NP tour and the different visits. (with my GF we will have 4 days and 3 nights there)
Thank in advance, I will appreciate your response.
Merci
Philippe
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Hey there could I have that jewelers email you mentioned in the thread?
VIGILAIRE wrote on wesheltonj's profile.
Hi Walden. Good morning from England, Chris here (The Englishman!) from Croatia. Firstly it was a pleasure to meet you and Michelle - a fellow Sanderson! I have finally joined AH as I enjoy it very much. Glad you enjoyed the hunt and your write up which I read on AR was very good indeed. I am sending on WhatsApp pics from Bojan of some of the animals hunted recently. Take care and best regards. CS.
 
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