The perfect Buffalo Medicine

[FlowHamed18]

I shot a buffalo with my. 404 Jeffery last week at 40m.
The Barnes TSX 400gr broke the shoulder bone of the opposite side and got stuck in the bone.

25m and the buffalo was down bellowing.
I would use Barnes again without hesitation!

 

[Spey]

500 gr Barnes TSX at 33 yards from .458 Lott.View attachment 631161

reattaching pic

 

[Muting the Goat]

I leave for my Zim hunt in 10-1/2 months, 350 days from now to be exact but who’s counting lol
I have enough time for the mental gymnastics and the silliness of overthinking and playing mental badminton with what round to bring for my Buff on that hunt?!?! It’s my first time out and with all the PH’s and Clients that have been hit I just want to make sure I hammer him good before he does us!
And Yes Yes I know this has been beaten like a dead horse but dead horses are fun to beat lol jk

I’ll be taking a Winchester 458 WinMag and have been looking at these loads so anyone that has used and has ha successfully used them in 458 WinMag or any legal cartridge I’d like to hear feedback from all of you along with any other pet Buff medicine someone has!

Hornady 500gr Bonded DGX 2140ftps 5184ftlbs
Hornady 480gr Bonded DGX 2350ftps 5884ftlbs
CE Safari Raptor 470gr 2300ftps 5519ftlbs
Barnes TSXX 450gr 2285ftps 5215ftlbs
Shock Hammer 404gr 2550 5832ftlbs

That’s what I have on hand and I’m working with. I’m leaning towards the 480gr Hornady or the 470gr CE Raptor but I haven’t heard a bunch of feedback on the raptors on Buff?
Thanks for playing along! And Happy Labor Day to all!!!View attachment 630949

I still like the old Winchester 510 grain Super Speed Soft Point!

 

[CZDiesel]

If using the CEB Raptor, go with the 420gr. It will work out much better in 458 WM or Lott. I shot a buffalo with that bullet last year, and it absolutely hammered him. In fact, I wouldn’t go over 450 gr in any bullet that you choose. It’s just not needed for buffalo, with the new improved bullets we have today. I see you have the 470gr Raptor listed at 2300 fps. Are you sure that’s not the 420gr? I doubt very seriously you could get 2300fps from that bullet in the 458 WM without serious chamber pressure, even if you could manage to get enough powder in the case to get anywhere close to that velocity.

That’s what’s advertised? Ive talked to Jason at Aria at lengths several times, he’s very knowledgeable and loves what he does, and he told me that his 458 WinMag loads are out of a 21-1/2” test barrel and the velocities are correct?
My Winchester has a 22” barrel so we’ll see? I’ll verify with a LabRadar Doppler

 

[Dirtdart]

I’ve taken several buffs, hippo, croc and plains game with the 400 grs Swift A Frame in .416. They performed perfect. Unfortunately I can’t buy them anymore here in Europe, CCI primers and Swift bullets vanished.

Swift A-Frames in .416 and .423 400 grain are all but extinct in the US also.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I just finished a hunt in Zimbabwe. I was surprised to see my PH there had raptors in 470 on his belt. I asked about them and his response was that he loves them. He said they hit buffalo like no other soft does because of penetration and damage caused by the petals. He said care must be taken though that there are no buffalo behind your buffalo because they will penetrate through every time. I was surprised at the glowing review he gave. I’m going to try some now in my 375. He and the other PH in camp did not give a glowing review of DGX but both thought highly of Barnes TSX.

I’ve only taken buffalo with my 375 H&H. I used swift A frames, trophy bonded bear claws, and unfortunately borrowed ammo on a different trip when mine didn’t arrive with bullets I’d prefer not to use again unless necessary. I like swift A frames. They penetrate well and reliably don’t exit making them a good choice if you need to shoot with buffalo behind your bull.

I has the same experience with the Raptor in 458 Lott (470 grain) and think they are great. Both of my shots were complete pass throughs

HH

 

[CZDiesel]

I has the same experience with the Raptor in 458 Lott (470 grain) and think they are great. Both of my shots were complete pass throughs

HH

How did the Buff react when hit?

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

I am a firm believer in the Swift 500gr Aframe. All I use in 458 Lott.
So I would choose the same for the 458 win mag. Grafs and Sons and Swift have it available on there web sites in loaded Swift Ammo.

 

[wvfred]

I have used only woodleigh and TSX bullets on buffalo and the TSX bullets are my favorite.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

How did the Buff react when hit?

First shot walloped him and he broke to the right. Quick reload and second shot from my R8 dropped him in his tracks. Both shots on the shoulder at 40 yards and his total travel was about 50 yards.

HH

 

[TOBY458]

That’s what’s advertised? Ive talked to Jason at Aria at lengths several times, he’s very knowledgeable and loves what he does, and he told me that his 458 WinMag loads are out of a 21-1/2” test barrel and the velocities are correct?
My Winchester has a 22” barrel so we’ll see? I’ll verify with a LabRadar Doppler View attachment 631202View attachment 631203View attachment 631204View attachment 631205View attachment 631206

I will be very curious to see the results.

 

[TOBY458]

That’s what’s advertised? Ive talked to Jason at Aria at lengths several times, he’s very knowledgeable and loves what he does, and he told me that his 458 WinMag loads are out of a 21-1/2” test barrel and the velocities are correct?
My Winchester has a 22” barrel so we’ll see? I’ll verify with a LabRadar Doppler View attachment 631202View attachment 631203View attachment 631204View attachment 631205View attachment 631206

I will be very curious to see the results

 

[TOBY458]

That’s what’s advertised? Ive talked to Jason at Aria at lengths several times, he’s very knowledgeable and loves what he does, and he told me that his 458 WinMag loads are out of a 21-1/2” test barrel and the velocities are correct?
My Winchester has a 22” barrel so we’ll see? I’ll verify with a LabRadar Doppler View attachment 631202View attachment 631203View attachment 631204View attachment 631205View attachment 631206

@michael458 , is this possible??? 470gr Raptors at 2300 fps from a 458 Win Mag?

 

[CZDiesel]

@michael458 , is this possible??? 470gr Raptors at 2300 fps from a 458 Win Mag?

I do know that he uses proprietary powders

 

[Velo Dog]

Swift A-Frame are incredibly reliable, bonded soft nose bullets.
Hopefully Swift will get back to adequate production numbers.

I have no experience to back up the following thought …..
However, it seems to me that at .458 Winchester velocity, the Woodleigh 480 grain, bonded soft nose would work well enough on buffaloes.
Likewise, I suspect the Hornady bonded DGX would work about as well.

 

[michael458]

@michael458 , is this possible??? 470gr Raptors at 2300 fps from a 458 Win Mag?

At a glance I would say no, not without being well over Max Pressures, and especially in a 21-22 inch barrel as stated.

I have never tested or even fired the 500 CEB SOlids and the matching 470 Raptors. After working with the 450/420 combination first designed, I never seen any reason for the heavier bullets, regardless of cartridge capacity, and honestly, I still do not see a need for it today. Some however cannot get past the belief that a 500 gr bullet is needed for .458. So be it, no problems here. Now, the 470 Raptor IS a 500 #13 Solid just with a Hollow Cavity. Same length same bearing surface, everything.......... If seated conventionally to the top groove and crimped, it is deeper in the case than the 450/420 combination. Taking up more case capacity. Weight equals pressure as well, I have extensive work with the 450 Solids and pressure data, conventionally seated to the top groove, we can hit 2300 fps in 24 inches of gun with the 450 #13 Solid, but it is 60000 PSI to 62000 PSI. If the 470 is seated the same and the additional 20 grs of weight, the pressures will be higher just guessing at 65000 +

I just went over to their website, and did not see the 470s listed, but they did list the 450 #13 Solids and have them at 2450 fps!!!!! I am fairly suspicious of those sort of numbers to be honest. I did a pretty extensive study in 2013 with a 24 inch gun and the best we did then was 2338 fps at 62700 PSI with 72/V-N530 and 2341 fps with AA 2230 (I won't say how much, because 2013 AA 2230 IS NOT 2024 AA 2230, almost two different powders), today the same amount of AA 2230 would be a dangerous load, well over 65000 PSI........

I do not believe you can get 2450 fps with the 450 #13 Solid in 458 Winchester, without being way over Max Pressures. Not with standard load procedures and seating depths that would work in a variety of different rifles. And this also brings some suspicions concerning the 470 Raptor at 2300 fps. Then the test gun is a 21 inch barrel on top of that? Hmmmm..............

In 2022 we did some more research with 458 Winchester in a 20 inch gun, Winchester M70 of course. We were able to hit 2250-2270 fps and stay under 62000 PSI with the 450 #13s.

We did some research with 450 Barnes Solids and seating them very long at 3.577 OAL, and still could only get 2277 fps at 62000 PSI even with increased case capacity by seating long. But, we only tested this with the one powder IMR 8208. But I seriously doubt much more could have been achieved with most any powder.

In late 2022 and early 2023 we designed a 400 gr #13 Solid and testing 7 different powders, two different seating depths we managed 2418 fps with 84/TAC at 58700 PSI at 3.290 OAL. Now, any more powder bulged the case and it would not chamber. Extreme Compression. With other powders we were able to touch 2400 fps at 61000-62000 PSI. Reminder, 20 inch barrel.

Now how Arias is getting 2450 fps with the 450 #13 Solid in a 21 inch barrel and staying under Max Pressure? Mystery to me. We are fairly well equipped here, Weight equal pressure, and we cannot do that with a 400 gr Solid.

I see pretty much the same claims in 458 Lott..... 450 #13 Solid at 2575 fps?.......... We tested in 24 inch guns in 2013 9 different powders and best we could do and stay under 62000 PSI was 2450, in 2013 our velocities were limited to Chronograph 18 ft in front the muzzle, the actual muzzle velocity would most likely be closer to 2475 fps. Still a long way from 2575 fps.

I do not see where they are doing any sort of pressure data? I am pretty sure if they were capable of having some sort of magic powder, they would also have pressure equipment. I have done a lot of blending here, looking for magic powder, thus far, I have been successful in equaling some of the top end powders for various cartridges, but little success in surpassing top end powders...........

That was the long answer. LOL........

Short answer..... Is it POSSIBLE? Anything Might be possible. Likely? I would find it hard to buy without going over Max Pressures. And I would think in some cases, WAY OVER......

 

[CZDiesel]

Well as I said I’ll test it with Doppler Radar and give the results here soon but I see no reason to question or disparage anyone until then? Right?

 

[michael458]

Well as I said I’ll test it with Doppler Radar and give the results here soon but I see no reason to question or disparage anyone until then? Right?

Right to a point..... velocity is only part of the equation and not the whole. Pressures would be the main concerns here. You can do some amazing things, I have run pressures at over 80000 PSI in some guns, and they work fine, did not lock up and showed little signs of 80000 PSI. Which is extreme and dangerous in most circumstances. In one such rifle, for an Ammo manufacturer we assisted in getting a Proof load of 75000 PSI to be fired once in each rifle manufactured. Our test rifle fired 120 rounds total of 70000--80000+ PSI without a hitch over a 3 day period. This was extreme and would do serious damage to many firearms.

There is nothing free, and rarely easy when it comes to these sort of things....... I have seen many claims from many shooters over the years of grand velocities being achieved, but at a cost....... You cannot run away from Pressures, under any normal circumstances, sooner or later you pay.

That said, there can be the extremely rare circumstance that you find a magical formula. In 40 years of handloading, I actually had it happen 1 Time, One time Only.

In the very early development of the 500 MDM..... 2.8 inch RUM Case, .500 caliber, and 20 inch barrels. I had a 5 lb container of Magic Powder. I did not realize it was a magic powder at the time however, but as soon as that 5 lbs was burned, I learned. This magic powder was shooting a 500 gr CEB #13 Solid, .500 caliber at 2617 fps at 62670 PSI....... This is pretty damned impressive, and I was very impressed. The load was 102 grs of this magic powder and it tested this over many times, and many rounds...... not a fluke by any stretch........ It was tested right on down to 86 gr for 2300 fps at 46000 PSI. This was 2010.

Then in 2011, that 5 lb container was gone and replaced with another 5 lb container of the same powder........... I don't recall the exact reason I started at the bottom again with this new Container, but lucky I did, as starting with 85 gr of the new container ended up being absolute MAX at around 2400 fps. Anything more would lock up the gun and be way over max pressures, the days of 2600 fps were done and not obtainable. I tried another container, and I had to go even lower to stay under max. Had I started near the top end with the new container, I am quite sure I would have damaged the action. I immediately condemned that previous data and removed it from the system. I still have a copy of course as a reminder.

Since then, I have always been in search of the Magic Powder by blending myself with many cartridges. I have not hit the right formula, even with years of trying. I have done well, I have equaled some of the best powders, but I have not exceeded. Now its very possible I am just not talented enough to find the magic powder again, I will concede that.

Doing Pressure Data opens your eyes and without that, you can be in the dark..........

 

[TOBY458]

Right to a point..... velocity is only part of the equation and not the whole. Pressures would be the main concerns here. You can do some amazing things, I have run pressures at over 80000 PSI in some guns, and they work fine, did not lock up and showed little signs of 80000 PSI. Which is extreme and dangerous in most circumstances. In one such rifle, for an Ammo manufacturer we assisted in getting a Proof load of 75000 PSI to be fired once in each rifle manufactured. Our test rifle fired 120 rounds total of 70000--80000+ PSI without a hitch over a 3 day period. This was extreme and would do serious damage to many firearms.

There is nothing free, and rarely easy when it comes to these sort of things....... I have seen many claims from many shooters over the years of grand velocities being achieved, but at a cost....... You cannot run away from Pressures, under any normal circumstances, sooner or later you pay.

That said, there can be the extremely rare circumstance that you find a magical formula. In 40 years of handloading, I actually had it happen 1 Time, One time Only.

In the very early development of the 500 MDM..... 2.8 inch RUM Case, .500 caliber, and 20 inch barrels. I had a 5 lb container of Magic Powder. I did not realize it was a magic powder at the time however, but as soon as that 5 lbs was burned, I learned. This magic powder was shooting a 500 gr CEB #13 Solid, .500 caliber at 2617 fps at 62670 PSI....... This is pretty damned impressive, and I was very impressed. The load was 102 grs of this magic powder and it tested this over many times, and many rounds...... not a fluke by any stretch........ It was tested right on down to 86 gr for 2300 fps at 46000 PSI. This was 2010.

Then in 2011, that 5 lb container was gone and replaced with another 5 lb container of the same powder........... I don't recall the exact reason I started at the bottom again with this new Container, but lucky I did, as starting with 85 gr of the new container ended up being absolute MAX at around 2400 fps. Anything more would lock up the gun and be way over max pressures, the days of 2600 fps were done and not obtainable. I tried another container, and I had to go even lower to stay under max. Had I started near the top end with the new container, I am quite sure I would have damaged the action. I immediately condemned that previous data and removed it from the system. I still have a copy of course as a reminder.

Since then, I have always been in search of the Magic Powder by blending myself with many cartridges. I have not hit the right formula, even with years of trying. I have done well, I have equaled some of the best powders, but I have not exceeded. Now its very possible I am just not talented enough to find the magic powder again, I will concede that.

Doing Pressure Data opens your eyes and without that, you can be in the dark..........

View attachment 631449View attachment 631448

Thanks Michael. I’ll be very interested to see his chronograph findings. I’d definitely be leery of using over pressure ammo on DG. My bet is either he’ll find the velocity is way lower than advertised, or, like you said, his pressure is way up the scale if not over.

 

[michael458]

Thanks Michael. I’ll be very interested to see his chronograph findings. I’d definitely be leery of using over pressure ammo on DG. My bet is either he’ll find the velocity is way lower than advertised, or, like you said, his pressure is way up the scale if not over.

I am curious as well....... @CZDiesel , do keep us posted when you try these out......... After what you might learn, we might figure out a way to test them later for pressures........ depending on the outcome.....