The old crf vs prf debate....

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello,

I am reading the CRF can have faults. Of course! But, to put it right, between a PERFECT PF and a PERFECT CRF M98, as they SHOULD BE, the CRF M98 is the one. Period.

Best Regards,

CF

 

[Scott CWO]

I question anybody who exhibited a blind bloody minded attitude and I don't give a damn who you are or what station in life you hold. Plenty of my bosses will attest to that. What on earth makes you think you are so special that you can tell a story, that you were not there to see and think it is exactly as told. As has been said the rifle being PF is irrelevant if it was a manufacturing fault but you can not see or acknowledge this. So I am more questioning your rationality and clear thinking abilities. You mention your Critical thinking skills, well sir I see no sign of these skills what so ever. We or at least I have not asked for the make, just exactly what part of the rifle/bolt failed and why it failed. To say it failed as it is PF actually tells us very little.

I use to prefer PF as posted but now sided with CRF for DG but this does not blind me to the faults of all, like good yourself appears to be. I suggest that this PF failure you talk about, without describing why it failed due to the push feed operation, is suspect. That is, it could of happened to a CRF with the same faults. So I suggest you get over that, acknowledge you have been carried away with a story you that was told to you not seen by you. You probably feel a great sense of loyalty to your mate, no shame in that, however I would advise caution taking every thing said by a mate as gospel. All have a tendency to change a story, not necessarily done consciously. The other thing is peoples recall of stressful events is very rarely accurate in detail, sometimes in major parts as well. Not done deliberately just the way the human mind works.

The story was not embellished and his telling of it has not wavered. It was an issue that could only happen to a PF and I don’t hate PF rifles and I have indicated that I own some PF rifles. You seem very critical and derogatory in your posts and feel the need to put him and I down. Unnecessary and disrespectful.

 

[Fastrig]

Hello,

I am reading the CRF can have faults. Of course! But, to put it right, between a PERFECT PF and a PERFECT CRF M98, as they SHOULD BE, the CRF M98 is the one. Period.

Best Regards,

CF

I'd personally take the Blaser R8, but that's a personal preference. Your operative word, Perfect, is spot on. Either feed style works perfectly, so long as the rifle is in perfect condition, i.e. maintained properly, good ammo is used, hunter practices extensively with it, etc.

 

[Red Leg]

Hello,

I am reading the CRF can have faults. Of course! But, to put it right, between a PERFECT PF and a PERFECT CRF M98, as they SHOULD BE, the CRF M98 is the one. Period.

Best Regards,

CF

My point exactly. Absolute certainty based upon what?

 

[Red Leg]

I'd personally take the Blaser R8, but that's a personal preference. Your operative word, Perfect, is spot on. Either feed style works perfectly, so long as the rifle is in perfect condition, i.e. maintained properly, good ammo is used, hunter practices extensively with it, etc.

Yep. And employed new out of the box, who would opt for a Cz 550 over an R8? This site is replete with the former’s feeding issues In some calibers until addressed by a specialist.

Again, buy a quality rifle (or turn it into one), equip it with quality glass, use a quality bullet, and become totally competent with it. The rest is nonsensical.

 

[Fastrig]

Yep. And employed new out of the box, who would opt for a Cz 550 over an R8? This site is replete with the former’s feeding issues In some calibers until addressed by a specialist.

Again, buy a quality rifle (or turn it into one), equip it with quality glass, use a quality bullet, and become totally competent with it. The rest is nonsensical.

Couldn't agree more. Have a CZ 550, it works great, but the previous owner had it gone through by a smith to make sure it does.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Red Leg,

Agree, of course.

CF

 

[Scott CWO]

Hello,

I am reading the CRF can have faults. Of course! But, to put it right, between a PERFECT PF and a PERFECT CRF M98, as they SHOULD BE, the CRF M98 is the one. Period.

Best Regards,

CF

Exactly. I never meant that a CRF cannot break. Everything can break. But given that everything is clean and well cared for, I am choosing CRF for DG.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Exactly. I never meant that a CRF cannot break. Everything can break. But given that everything is clean and well cared for, I am choosing CRF for DG.

Scott, Just curious, is that a preference for feeding, extraction or a combination of both. The reason I ask, is most of my hunting rifles are custom action, push feeds with sako style extractors and I've never experienced an issue with feeding or extraction. The Remingtons with their sheetmetal extractors can be problematic if worn. I do adjust the magazines so feeding isn't an issue.

 

[Scott CWO]

@Red Leg I agree that there is definitely a place for a quality double rifle with DG hunting. I also agree that anything can break. I also agree that a CZ out of the box, especially in .458 Lott, needs work to be reliable. I found this out firsthand.

I also appreciate the R8. One of my clients used one for brown bear last spring. I took it apart and cleaned it completely a few times on the trip. Seemed like a nice system. As a guide, I probably wouldn’t use one for a backup rifle because I prefer a CRF rifle for that purpose but I would be fine with my clients using an R8.

 

[Scott CWO]

Scott, Just curious, is that a preference for feeding, extraction or a combination of both. The reason I ask, is most of my hunting rifles are custom action, push feeds with sako style extractors and I've never experienced an issue with feeding or extraction. The Remingtons with their sheetmetal extractors can be problematic if worn. I do adjust the magazines so feeding isn't an issue.

@Hogpatrol you and I get along great on this site and I don’t want to get sideways with anyone else on this issue, let alone you. If anyone wants to use a PF for DG, go ahead. IMHO, I don’t think a PF (all else being equal) is the best choice for a PH or guide. My opinion is based on what I was taught by my mentors, my friend’s experience in the attack (a feeding AND bolt problem in the heat of the moment), listening to several experienced Alaskan and African PHs and my own critique of different designs concepts. I am entitled to my opinions. Although I have a fair amount of experience with rifles, there are no doubt many people that have way more. I am more of a hunting nut than a gun nut. When my reasonable amount of experience with rifles and the thoughts of other PHs/guides is combined with my extensive hunting/guiding experience, that is where my opinions come from. Thanks.

 

[Fastrig]

Exactly. I never meant that a CRF cannot break. Everything can break. But given that everything is clean and well cared for, I am choosing CRF for DG.

The CRF rifle that's screwing up on me is an old Mauser CRF. Can't tell what's wrong with it, nothing is jumping out at me. First two rounds on Sunday cycled perfectly, every round after that started angling, for lack of a better word, and lifting up as you try to push the bolt forward. Picking up my son's new R8 today and going to drop it off and have the smith look at it. It's an old rifle that was handed down to me, my grandfather's gun. I've not used it much, and never hunted with it, but it was cleaned and inspected after the last time I shot it then put in the safe next to my dad's old pump 30-06 from the same era (1950's I think). If it's mechanical, it'll definitely break eventually, even with proper care.

 

[Hogpatrol]

@Scott CWO, Never hunted anything that could kill me but when the voice of experience speaks, I listen. A DG hunt isn't in the cards for me but a double rifle or a CF rifle would definitely be in my hands. Even though I like and am proficient with my PFs, I'm not one to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Scott CWO]

The CRF rifle that's screwing up on me is an old Mauser CRF. Can't tell what's wrong with it, nothing is jumping out at me. First two rounds on Sunday cycled perfectly, every round after that started angling, for lack of a better word, and lifting up as you try to push the bolt forward. Picking up my son's new R8 today and going to drop it off and have the smith look at it. It's an old rifle that was handed down to me, my grandfather's gun. I've not used it much, and never hunted with it, but it was cleaned and inspected after the last time I shot it then put in the safe next to my dad's old pump 30-06 from the same era (1950's I think). If it's mechanical, it'll definitely break eventually, even with proper care.

@Fastrig I am no expert but sounds like the rails need adjusting or maybe the follower?? Is it every round or number one or two from the magazine? Before I had Wayne at AHR fix my CZ, it would feed at a slight angle and when cycled really fast, the bullet would get stuck on the sharp edge of the chamber/barrel transition. I believe Wayne adjusted the rails but I don't remember for sure. Let us know what your gunsmith figures out.

 

[Ray B]

The CRF rifle that's screwing up on me is an old Mauser CRF. Can't tell what's wrong with it, nothing is jumping out at me. First two rounds on Sunday cycled perfectly, every round after that started angling, for lack of a better word, and lifting up as you try to push the bolt forward. If it's mechanical, it'll definitely break eventually, even with proper care.

I had a similar problem with a 1903 Springfield. I was told that the problem was the magazine spring losing strength. I looked at the spring and could see nothing wrong with it, but valuing the gunsmith's knowledge I ordered a new spring. On getting the spring I compared it to the old spring and still could see no difference. I went ahead and installed the new spring- what do you know?? the problem was cured. I have no idea what the difference between the springs is, but with the old one the shell next to the follower "pops" out and with the new spring it slides forward into the chamber. So the gunsmith knew of what he spoke.

 

[Fastrig]

@Fastrig I am no expert but sounds like the rails need adjusting or maybe the follower?? Is it every round or number one or two from the magazine? Before I had Wayne at AHR fix my CZ, it would feed at a slight angle and when cycled really fast, the bullet would get stuck on the sharp edge of the chamber/barrel transition. I believe Wayne adjusted the rails but I don't remember for sure. Let us know what your gunsmith figures out.

Dropped it off and chatted with the smith for a few minutes. He said more than likely it’s was what you indicated, a rail issue, or the spring in the magazine as Ray B indicated. He said the rifle is 60-70 years old so either, or both, is likely. Recommended replacing the spring even if it turns out to be the rail, preventive maintenance he said. The issue didn’t start until the third round I cycled at the range. Once it started it happened on every round, to one extent of another. Smith said he should be able to get gramp’s rifle fixed up in short order but he’s back logged so might be a few weeks until he can get to it. Don’t really use it much, and to be honest it was our back and forth here that got me thinking about taking it out (LOL), but definitely would like to keep it in good working order so I can pass it down to my son or maybe grandson/granddaughter one day. Same shop is restoring my dad’s Belgian Browning shotgun he got in 1950’s when he came home from the Korean War. I will use that one for pheasant hunting and then pass it down to future generations as well. Too fine a gun to let go to waste.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

The PERFECT CRF rifle I am thinking about, should be one, ANY, of the Original Sporting Mauser models (not double trigger, by the way).
The Orignal Mausers have magazines, followers and rails designed for the cartridge. They left the factory without faults. Their design and functioning couldn't be improved. I put at the same level all of the Mauser, DWM, CZ, FN and Steyr military rifles. Any and all of them can be converted to outstanding NO FAULTS Sporting rifles, without any change of their barreled actions, only minor modifications. Even with the use of their stocks! Propperly done, that stocks makes excelent Sporting ones!
A BRNO ZG47, the FN Mauser, the BRNO ZKK pre-70 and the Winchester 70 pre 64 (specially in the 300 and 375 H&H), would be entirelly adecuate, for my liking.
I prefer the Mauser but, having had one, the Mannlicher-Schoenauer is also outstanding (again, not double trigger) with the specific cartidge magazine and its almost perfect functioning.
Best!

CF

 

[Rule 303]

The story was not embellished and his telling of it has not wavered. It was an issue that could only happen to a PF and I don’t hate PF rifles and I have indicated that I own some PF rifles. You seem very critical and derogatory in your posts and feel the need to put him and I down. Unnecessary and disrespectful.

I am not being disrespectful to your mate, more to you. You blindly refuses to state what the problem was. 1) How do you know the story was not embellished , one way or the other? As I said this a natural human trait unless reading from a script and No I don't think he is. To be clear I do not believe or mean the embellishments (bad word to use) are major. Though they could be and not by intent. Just how the human mind works in stressful situations. Ask any police officer about the varied accounts of a situation given by eye witnesses. 2)We have not been told what the problem was or what caused the problem, so how would we know what the problem/cause was. Period. Please tell me what problem could only happen to a PF? I really would like to know.

 

[Scott CWO]

I am not being disrespectful to your mate, more to you. You blindly refuses to state what the problem was. 1) How do you know the story was not embellished , one way or the other? As I said this a natural human trait unless reading from a script and No I don't think he is. To be clear I do not believe or mean the embellishments (bad word to use) are major. Though they could be and not by intent. Just how the human mind works in stressful situations. Ask any police officer about the varied accounts of a situation given by eye witnesses. 2)We have not been told what the problem was or what caused the problem, so how would we know what the problem/cause was. Period. Please tell me what problem could only happen to a PF? I really would like to know.

Thanks for agreeing that you have been disrespectful to me. Judging by the number of private messages that I have received from others, many of us seem to agree on that. Your continued insistence that my friend has embellished his story is disrespectful to him. The Alaska State Troopers, USDA Forest Service and the US Coast Guard were all involved and saw the evidence. My friend has not changed his story, despite your “that’s human nature” claim. I met him just days after the attack and I continue to see him at least twice per year and nothing has changed.

I can only say that part of the rifle was not strong enough to withstand the pressures he applied to it during the fury of the attack and when combined with the PF design, those two issues prevented the rifle bolt from moving forward far enough to close on a fresh round. Yes, both issues. This particular issue could not happen with a CRF rifle because the bolts work differently. That’s all I can say. Yes, I understand that a CRF rifle can also break in other ways. Anything can break. The OP asked for cases of problems with rifles and I have provided one. A gunsmith inspected and took pictures before the rifle was sent to the manufacturer. No one is making things up. If our word is not good enough for you, then so be it but we have no reason to lie.

I wish you well and I hope you can change your tone. All I did was respond to the OP request for information and gave my personal opinions on my preference of a CRF for DG. If you feel otherwise, that’s your choice.

 

[Rule 303]

Scott, As I said Embellish is a bad word and the wrong word, for what I want to say. I am saying your mate changed his story. The Chinese Whispers referred to the telling by others, once again not a deliberate act, it happens. In all sorts of situations people can and do remember things that are not correct/did not happen as seen by the person/persons. This is not a deliberate act. It happens and is well documented. This is not derogatory comment about anybody, just a fact.

To me you deserve the lack of respect I am showing due to your bull headedness in maintaining your stance on the PF bit without stipulating what it was. I do not doubt the situation happened, I am questioning the assumptions/cause of the problem, as I am entitled to do. There is not one failure that can happen to a push feed that can not happen to a CRF Period. If there is as I have asked what was it. You refuse to tell use what that was. So either you do not know what it was, if so get some credibility back by acknowledging this or telling us what the failure was due to push feed. I have asked you several times what the failure was and you blatantly refuse to tell us. So instead of insulting my and others intelligence, answer that one simple question.

Just for your education I have suffered more jams due to the bolt jamming with CRF than with PF. These have been manufacturing faults that the CRF lends itself to if they do not have a guide rib like the M98 and it is the extractor that is the part jamming against the side of the action. The part that broke shows as a manufacturing fault I hope you agree on that.

I don't care if others are PM to you about me, the fact you mention this shows a floor in your character, at least to me. Bit like the bully in the school yard relying on pear pressure to back him up.

Change my tone, will do when you answer the question.