The most efficient big game cartridges you didn't know you needed!!!

Have you ever hunted big-game animals???
Does it matter?

Maybe he has dropped a dozen Buff in the NT or maybe he has just put together a heap of information on numbers and theoretical figures from online data.

Give the bloke a break. What he lacks in experience he has in technical knowledge.

I don’t know him but I am always keen to to see another Aussie on the site.
 
A .308 Winchester is a fine white tailed deer cartridge.

Have you ever used it for very large animals? (I doubt it, because most rifles will not stabilize heavy bullets)



To use a little Native American lingo, it is "low on the totem pole" compared to the .30/06, .300 WM, .300 Weatherby Mag and several newer cartridges

Please post your picture of an eland, taken with a .308....

No eland, but I can post an almost 9' coastal brown bear. ;)
 
Wow... That was almost a Valentine's Day overture to @Bob Nelson 35Whelen ...

Roses are red,
bees are a pest.
The .35 Whelan
is totally best.
That is the best :LOL: Have to love Bob though! He’s truly one of a kind aaand he’s our brother…
 
G'day and welcome aboard Tug!
I really appreciate your tecnical approach, and the time you spent for sharing those data. I remember a good article published decades ago on Rifle Shooter, showing more or less the same results and deductions.
Me, I not always choose following a strictly tecnical rule, but I always find very useful to know the reasons behind a given results or design, or so.
As a rule of thumb, I try to stay away from the most overbore calibers - well, I try, and not always do, being the proud owner of a 300wby, a very inefficent cartridge. I had a 300 Winch and always found it the better of the two, in fact.
You know, love is a compromise, as so often we love (a cartridge) despite defects.
And, to break the rules, better you know that rules, I believe.
So keep going with your research, I'm pretty enterested on learning as much as I can.
 
I can see myself as a bit of an over-thinker as well. Especially early on in my hunting career, I looked at data tables with energy figures, bullet drops at 500 m/yd etc etc. when considering a new rifle. But with experience (or at least 'age'), I've come to the conclusion that most of that has very little to do with practical results.

For hunting purposes, comparing cartridges' efficiency down to the 5th decimal point, or SA vs LA, Improved cartridges etc, just don't matter. You'd have to look further back, to when the NE cartridges replaced the black powder 'bore' rifles. That was a valid case of comparing efficiency and recoil.

If you are going to hunt big game, you need a big cartridge. It will kick some. Deal with it. From the energy delivered to your respective shoulders, neither you nor the buffalo will know if it was a 416 Rigby, 425 WR or 404 Jeffery that sent the bullet.

Get something that is appropriate for the game you intend to hunt, and you'll be good.
If that is smaller PG/deer/goats, possibly at some distance: get a 6.5, 7mag, or a 30 cal something
If it is larger PG/moose/bears, consider something between 30 and 375.
If it is DG, look att 375 and up.

Choose quality ammo/components appropriate for the task (i.e. terminal ballistics).

Personally, I prefer a nice rifle chambered for a practical (or boring) cartridge - i.e. something I can easily find components for - to an "interesting cartridge" in whatever rifle. Partly that is because the legal situation here severely limits how many guns/rifles I can own. If it were different, I might have a collection of obsolete stuff. But collecting fine and interesting vintage guns and rifles was not really in line with the original topic.

Come to think of it, the newest chambering in my rifles is a 30-06, almost 120 years old. That is not obsolete, as cartridge-wise, not much of great importance has been invented since.
 
Brother Tug. I see you joined the forum yesterday. Welcome to AH. It is a good place to discuss such topics with a wide array of people with both technical and hunting/shooting experience. I am guilty of some verbose posts here and elsewhere but do appreciate your discussion. I do not have all the answers but would like to share a few added comments.

I am a life long hunter, and marksman. Qualified NRA Expert at 11yr old, shot on my collegiate rifle team as a young man and am a former USA National Champion rifle marksman, later in life. My first real hunting rifle was a FN FAL black rifle in 7.62x51Nato/308 but at the time I was mostly hunting varmints. A few years later, I put that heavy bitch away and got a nice Mauser custom in 270. Recently, I hunted Africa with a 308 using 180g bonded bullets and a 375HH using Barnes TSX bullets and had stellar performance from both. The little 308 impressed me greatly and took five animals all with one shot kills. But, in my opinion as an engineer your basic premise may be slightly flawed.

For example the first set of the 30-06, 7x57 and 308 lists the 308 as most efficient. If the premise is that this leads to better performance in the field? Then I sincerely and respectfully doubt this. Recoil for example: If I blindfolded you and handed you identical rifles in each caliber and had you fire each one three times all while mixing them up along the way, I would expect that your ability to guess based on recoil and report, which is which would be no better than had you just randomly guessed without firing them. Same for performance on game using the same bullets of same or similar weights. The performance will depend far more on the hunters ability to place the bullets where they need to go than the actual bullet or minor differences in velocity. Just again, my opinion.

Another consideration might be bore wear. The more efficient cartridge might be able to be used longer without burning out the bbl but I would have to examine more data to decide if that theory is correct. This is not much of a factor with a hunting rifle. Last Safari, I took six animals and only fired nine rounds from each of my two rifles and fully half of those in total were shot at the range since one of my scopes got bumped out of alignment by the baggage monkeys. My deer rifle gets fired 3 times before season unless I have changed loads for some reason and then once or twice more at most if I am fortunate enough to harvest a deer or two (I hunt two states). At that rate it can take me four or five years to burn thru a box of 20rds. Most bbls will last a few lifetimes.

Finally, you discussed the 375HH comparing it to a number of other DG options. Comparing the 375 to the 404J, the 416R and others may be a bit of apples to oranges. The 416R is in another class of recoil and penetration than the 375. I would toss in two more the 458WM and the 450NE which are ballistically about identical. All these are considered DG cartridges. And all of them have stood the test of time and are proven on various DG. Excluding use on Elephant which is a specialized trade me thinks, I would posit that since the advent of advanced bullets like the Swift A-Frame, the Woodleigh Hydro and the Barnes TSX, the performance of the 375HH has been elevated somewhat above its original performance with simple soft points and solids. We need to choose our tools for the intended task. If I am hunting Cape Buffalo, it will be with the 375HH. Why? It is fast enough to fully expand a TSX at ranges of 100y or more, (I had one expand to 2x diam on a Wildebeest at 160-180y and over 2.2x at closer distance).

For Buff we limit our shots to 80y more or less. Why? That is close enough to accurately place a good killing 1st shot off sticks and still have time for 2 or more followups should the black bastid choose to charge. Try doing an 80y shot with an iron sighted dbl rifle in 450NE. Or a 458WM. Good Luck. Also, Those cartridges are so slow that out past about 50-80y they will not fully expand a TSX reliably. You can expect about 1.6x at 50y. Assuming the bullets have enough energy to penetrate the vitals at 50y, which is more effective? A .458, 500g slug expanded to 1.6x or 0.732" or a .375, 300g slug expanded to 2.2x or 0.825"? The only real advantage the bigger, heavier bullet has is if you had to shoot the buff in the ass. And even then it is marginal.

I would argue that the 416 Rigby might be significantly more effective despite its lower efficiency but at the price of significantly more recoil than the 375HH or even the 458WM. BTW - data compiled by one of our PH's here on the forum from actual Cape Buffalo hunts over several years show that the 375HH was the most likely to result in a 1 shot kill than ALL the other larger calibers with 80% rate. Why? Not because it is all that much better. But, I would suggest that it was mostly because statistically the hunters are more likely to hit the buff in the right place with the 1st shot using the 375 than the other heavy hitters. For example, I watched a hunter miss a buff at 20y broadside three times with a 600NE. Total miss. He finally hit it in the ass as it ran away resulting in a long stalk to finish it. This was not the cartridge's fault. One shot in the right place with that cannon is almost always going to end the hunt decisively. Keep up the discussion as we all learn from and enjoy these.

Barnes 375HH 300g TSX.jpg

Two 375HH TSX slugs recovered from a Wildebeest shot at 160y and 10y. Both expanded well to 2.0x and 2.2x. The long range shot penetrated 36" on a frontal shot. Lodged in the paunch​
 
Hello again Tug,
I reread your post and came to realize that you offer/ask some very good point and questions. I think that I just got overwhelmed by the diversity and number of different topics that you presented. Any one of them would start a good discussion. Posted all together was just too much for my old brain.
I hope you were not blown off by my reaction.
Keep the fire lit and welcome to the forum. Brian
 
Tug, when I read your post, although thought provoking, I knew immediately that you'd opened up "Pandora's Box." There are a lot of other parameters as well as historical data / facts that influence the majority of guys here re. caliber selection other than "efficiency."
 
Did I miss something or was powder type never specified? If we are talking about efficiency (i.e. $$$ per unit of something or other [e.g. sectional density?]), then surely bullet brand/design and powder brand/type are factors worth considering. 80 gr of IMR4350 is relatively cheap and easy to come by. 73 gr of something more exotic might produce more velocity or even better accuracy, but at what price? Similarly, a 400 gr Barnes TSX bullet may be the same weight as a 400 gr cast lead slug of same caliber. However, even if they shot the same velocity with the same unit of powder, performance would be much different in the field and cost per round would be substantially different. Surely performance and cost are factors to consider when calculating efficiency?
 
"The 416 Rigby is a cartridge built for the cameras, not built for work!"
This comment is meant to be tongue-in-cheek but it does have some historical merit as all the British game wardens did use the 404 Jeffery instead of the Rigby. And it is easy to see why! The 404 Jeffery is arguably smoothing feeding, uses 10grains less powder(for the data I presented from Norma) and was built in more rifles than 187 Rigbys(?).

Will the 416 Rigby work? Yes!
Was it designed for high pressure with temperature-sensitive cordite? Yes!
Is a large case capacity an efficient design to solve high pressures with hot cordite? No!
I would argue the 375H&H and 404 Jeffery had better case designs to deal with the cordite problem.

For your record, I have hunted with 308 Winchester, 7.62x54R and bow and arrow. I shoot 308 Winchester and 375 H&H. I am not the best but I am always learning and practicing.

"well not going to put in what I am thinking after going back and reading odd bits of your summation.....you possibly might be offended"

Please don't be embarrassed to share your opinions!
:LOL:
You have overlooked one critical factor in your assessment, concerning the caliber which was popular with game wardens:

Government agencies don’t pick hardware based on efficiency alone. They also pick the hardware that can most affordably be sourced in bulk. I’ve been affiliated with forest departments for 28 years of my life nonstop. I can honestly tell you that forest departments are the “Ignored Child” of government agencies. The government doesn’t equip us with the best hardware. They equip us with the cheapest possible hardware which logistics permit.

The .416 Rigby required a Magnum length Mauser action, which was expensive. By comparison, the .404 Jeffery and the .425 Westley Richards (which was issued to the Uganda game department and the Rhodesian Tsetse Fly Control department) could be built on the more affordable standard length army surplus Mauser 98 action. The .416 Rigby could (until the end of World War II) only be built by John Rigby (who had exclusive access to Magnum Mauser No. 21 actions required for taking this huge cartridge). The .404 Jeffery was built by almost all British (and several Continental) gunmakers due to the possibility of getting the cartridge to fit in a standard length action (combined with WJ Jeffery’s intelligent decision to release the cartridge to the open market immediately upon it’s inception). So game departments naturally opted for the caliber which would be the most logistically practical caliber to supply their staff with. Efficiency alone was not the sole deciding factor.

Below, are the two most popular makes of .404 Jeffery rifles which were supplied to game departments. As you can see in regards to the Vickers rifle, the pricing was quite lucrative compared to that of a .416 caliber John Rigby Magnum Mauser. As you can see in regards to the Cogswell & Harrison rifle, the “Special Alloy Magazine” was actually a cheap cost cutting aluminum alloy called Dural. These rifles (while no doubt excellent firearms of their class) were clearly targeted towards customers with budgetary considerations in mind.
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can you send some pics of the 2.5-10 zeiss. I can't click on the pics to see the details. You noted some scratches. thx.
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