THE KING

[IvW]

This is not a standard ZKK602 375 H&H...it only shows poor wood to metal finish...

Have the last word if you want but you are not correct in your assumptions....cheers

 

[IvW]

@Hoss Delgado

Could you make a short clear unedited video clip of how you load 7 rounds in your ZKK 602 375 H&H Brno and then cycle the action showing perfect operation?, the photo of your rifle clearly shows that it is original, many thanks in advance

 

[One Day...]

This is not a standard ZKK602 375 H&H...it only shows poor wood to metal finish...

Don't know how many ZK 602 / CZ 550 you have actually handled in your life IvW, but this IS a standard factory issued CZ 550, my dear friend. Short of being in a room and handling 50 of them, I actually encourage you to visit any internet auction site and verify for yourself by looking at their pictures. The vast majority of these ZKK 602 / CZ 550 rifles are inletted exactly as the picture I posted above shows. Do yourself the favor and check it for yourself before your next bout of patronizing/lecturing other members

Have the last word if you want but you are not correct in your assumptions....cheers

Could not possibly care about having the "last word" with you my friend. Truth be told, your "opinions" are not exactly the yardstick by which I run my life. You have posted enough authoritative (and generally demeaning to other members - that is the part that ticks me off) "technical" statements that proved utterly wrong, for the year or so I have read you, so that I could not really care less... As to your PH lifelong experience, a number of us are still waiting to see any picture of you with a DG trophy and/or a client, or to know which outfitter(s) you guide or guided for, or which country you are or were licensed in, etc. etc.

If Hoss Delgado has the spare time, and cares, to make the video you ask for, here is my prediction: his rifle is 100% factory issued; he loads 6 in the mag; he depresses #6 to move the bolt forward (the bolt barely clears #6 in the mag); he push feeds #7 (which I advise against because snapping a claw extractor over the cartridge head stresses the extractor steel needlessly); and he shoots flawlessly all 7. Just like the YouTube video he posted of that other shooter, showed.

There is more to the world than what we each individually see IvW, and our own individual experience although true is not necessarily universal. That's OK too

You are just plain wrong on this one, dear AH friend All these (including Hoss Delgado's, Milan's, mine - all 5 of them, and doubtless plenty others) are factory issued ZK 602 / CZ 550... I just took a brief look at the dozen or so used ones on GunBroker right now. NOT ONE of these on which inletting can be seen is any different from the random pic I posted above...

Bottom line: I like very much Hoss Delgado's question (add 20+ years if you want to make it mine):

I'm curious. Of ALL the things in the world worth lying about , you think a 40 year old guy would lie about his gun holding ONE extra round ?

Anyway, this horse has been beaten enough and you are welcome to go to your grave convinced that we are all wrong, which by the way would contradict your own previous post. So which is it?

... All standard original factory BRNO ZKK 602 actioned rifles will take 6 in the magazine...
...Trying to load round number seven on top of the six in the magazine and then closing the bolt to chamber round seven is a bad idea. It can be done but not advisable...

or

This is not a standard ZKK602 375 H&H...

Cheers indeed

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Don't know how many ZK 602 / CZ 550 you have actually handled in your life IvW, but this IS a standard factory issued CZ 550, my dear friend. Short of being in a room and handling 50 of them, I actually encourage you to visit any auction site and verify for yourself by looking at their pictures. The vast majority of these ZKK 602 / CZ 550 rifles are inletted exactly as the picture I posted shows. Do yourself the favor and check it for yourself before your next bout of patronizing/lecturing other members

Could not possibly care about having the "last word" with you my friend. Truth be told, your "opinions" are not exactly the yardstick by which I run my life. You have posted enough authoritative (and generally demeaning to other members - that is the part that ticks me off) "technical" statements that proved utterly wrong, for the year or so I have read you, so that I could not really care less... As to your PH lifelong experience, a number of us are still waiting to see any picture of you with a DG trophy and/or a client, or to know which outfitter(s) you guide or guided for, or which country you are or were licensed in, etc. etc.

If Hoss Delgado has the spare time, and cares, to make the video you ask for, here is my prediction: his rifle is 100% factory stock; he loads 6 in the mag; depresses #6 to move the bolt forward; push feeds #7 (which I advise against because snapping a claw extractor over the cartridge head stresses the extractor steel needlessly); and he shoots flawlessly all 7. Just like the YouTube video he posted of that other shooter, showed.

There is more to the world than what we each individually see IvW, and our own individual experience although true is not necessarily universal. That's OK too

You are just plain wrong on this one, dear AH friend All these (including Hoss Delgado's, Milan's, mine, and doubtless plenty others) are factory issued ZK 602 / CZ 550... I just took a brief look at the dozen or so used ones on GunBroker right now. Not ONE on these on which inletting can be seen is any different from the random pic I posted above...

Bottom line: I like very much Hoss Delgado's question:


Anyway, this horse has been beaten enough

Cheers indeed

One day ,
You are correct about the zkk 602 model rifle owned by Hoss Delgado . I am a family friend of the young man ( I used to be the professional Shikari for his grandfather ,Don Fernando Delgado , in India five decades ago ) and he interviews me over video conversations every week end ( He is writing a book about hunting , you see , and l am contributing two chapters to the book about hunting in India , prior to 1972 ).
In a video conversation , last week , he did in fact load seven cartridges into the zkk 602 rifle , in the manner which you describe . The rifle is a .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre rifle . He did it , to show me , because l myself did not believe him at first .
However , as a retired professional Shikari myself , l can also personally tell from analysis that most of the statements which IvW makes , infact mirror my own sentiments and observations about hunting and rifles . I can pretend to know nothing about the zkk 602 rifle and thus it would be unethical of me to comment on that area beyond what l have seen .
However , l have no doubt that IvW actually is a professional White Hunter and a highly competent one at that , because there are certain things which he says , which only a professional hunter would know and it is very unlikely that a client would ever know those things and even more unlikely that someone randomly writing on the internet would know , unless they actually did it .
As one example , l can personally attest that he is 100 % on point about pursuing wounded leopards , the inefficiency of buck-shot for great cats , metal envelope bullets being surpassed by homogeneous metal bullets in terms of performance and the methods used to shoot buffaloes ( such as the effect of an expanding bullet on the two lungs of an animal ).
Perhaps , l am just a naive 77 year old man who trusts too easily , but to me , he seems very real .
On a related subject , l have seen his photographs on these forums in the thread " poor man's double barrel rifle " . He seems very real to me .
You make an excellent assessment about the extractor sustaining pressure in a Mauser type rifle . One of my former clients , infact , did break the extractor on a mauser rifle , this way.

 

[sestoppelman]

I like and appreciate the above comments and thank Mr Rahman for making them. I believe he knows of what he speaks and his contributions to this forum and any forthcoming books will be highly valued.

 

[One Day...]

I agree with you Kawshik Rahman and I too, like sestoppelman, enjoy your writing, and I have no doubt that IvW uses a Brno sxs loaded with Brenneke slugs (or equivalent) as, in his words: "a poor man's double" and I too have seen his pictures of it. I will further add that I agree with him on the devastating effect of 12 gauge solid slugs at short range. I have literally balled over enough wild boars (sangliers) in France myself with a similar setup to attest to it. I will also add, which is generally not known, that I provided IvW with a substantial amount of private technical guidance last year to set up his long-range baboon-control rifle...

I also agree with many general comments IvW makes on wounded leopard follow-ups; use of soft bullets to double-lung buffalo; improvements of mono-metal bullets; or any number of subjects that have been discussed at length in printed magazines or electronic blogs (as this one) for over 50 years, and that are easy to repeat/quote/copy/etc. Nowadays, with the proliferation of knowledge-sharing (this AfricaHunting blog being the perfect example) I am not sure that "only a professional hunter would know." For example, I am NOT a PH, nor did I ever pretend to be one, but the buff in my avatar was a true one-shot buff (not even the "insurance shot" was needed) killed with a single .470 soft nose double-lung shot, which I can talk convincingly about; I converted to mono-metal slugs, and I can explain cogently why; I read plenty of leopard follow-up books and blogs, and I saw plenty of YouTube videos of it, and I too would adamantly repeat the inefficiency of buck-shot for great cats even though I have never hunted the great cats, never mind followed a wounded one. This is the challenge of the internet age, when everyone is an expert, no peer review takes place, and no authenticity check exists...

To respectfully paraphrase your statement Kawshik Rahman, "Perhaps , l am just a naive 77 year old man who trusts too easily, but to me , he seems very real," well then, perhaps, l am just a cynical 61 year old man who has been exposed too much to book expertise (a lot of that in my professional life...) and who doubts too easily of 'internet experts', but to me, too much of IvW challenging the sincerity of other members rests on technical statements that are factually wrong. As to whether he is or is not (or was or was not) a licensed PH; which countries he is (or was) licensed in; what outfitters he guides (or guided) for; which DG species he actually hunted; etc. it seems that those should be pretty easy to state, or illustrate with a few pics. For example, what I personally like a lot Kawshik Rahman, in your writing, is the profusion of pictures that make it clear that you are sharing your life's experience rather than writing a very well documented novel.

I have nothing for or against IvW, rest assured, but it somehow strikes me the wrong way when he challenges what other members state based on factually erroneous, although very definitive, judgments. In this latest case, Hoss, Milan or myself are neither lying nor wrong, even though IvW may have never experienced what we describe.

But my Father, were he still alive, would likely tell me right now: "Son, you are carrying water which is not yours to carry" (or words to that effect in French) and he would be right

 

[Milan]

I will only add that if I recall correctly (which I can no longer verify as I no longer have those rifles), the ZKK 602s that I played with, had 1) a different fitting pillars and 2) different fitting stocks in the bottom metal area and mainly 3) different depth of machined underside of receiver (not sure if by design or by mistake - different setting of tool depth on a batch of rifles would be my most likely guess) I.e. The magazine box was not the determining factor here and was in fact rather loose fitting.

If I remember this right, then on mine, rifle assembled without the stock, the mag box was still a bit loose. This can be easily verified even on fully assembled rifle by opening the bolt and shoving a finger or two in the magazine and trying to move the box back and forth or sideways a bit (no dirty thoughts here). Made for rattly rifle when empty but was OK when loaded with cartridges. Since the multi-piece trigger on the ZKKs is also rattly, I never liked it but did enjoy the rifle for was it was - accurate, well fitting (to my body), reliable, "high capacity" working rifle. Definitely not the best finished or fancy piece.

I also felt that mine had bottomed out the bottom metal on the wood before fully tightening on the posts, but in my case this did not make any difference and I had the rifle glass bedded and I think the gunsmith bedded the pillars as well so it would not have moved even should the wood dry out a bit. My buddy's rifle did seem to have the bottom metal more sunken in the wood and while I don't think the pillars were any shorter. They might have been. I think the mag boxes being stamped out by the same die, were more consistent than the other pieces. It almost seemed like stocks were still had fitted at least on some models, so if wood was worked a bit thinner or inletting done a bit deeper, the posts would be ground to match and for proper fit. Maybe that's why the magazine boxes were a loose fit, to allow for small imperfections elsewhere. I don't remember if we tried switching just the stocks or any other pieces to verify the differences or what the results were if we did. However, if I'm right and my receiver was machined a bit deeper under the feed rails (i.e. actually thinner), it was either this or the pillars.

Using the wooden stock to space out the bottom metal from the receiver is possible and will work but wood shrinking or swelling depending on air moisture content would make that less than ideal way to go about it (read less reliable, not to mention what that does for consistency of accuracy, though again experience would have me believe that on some rifles the difference was totally negligible at least for hunting purposes) . Fiberglass or hard plastic stock would be much better bet, aluminum bedding block (as in the aramid CZ stocks) even better, yet nothing beats proper, complete bedding job.

Long post to say, I no longer know the difference for 100%. And finally, if 6 can be loaded into the mag and fed properly, knowing the action is tight on the posts or bedding block in synthetic stock, it should be reliable as well as cool.

 

[One Day...]

That is my experience too. All three of my current CZ 550 (.300 Wby; .375 H&H; .416 Rigby) are mounted on a Bell & Carlson kevlar stock with full length aluminum bedding block and bedding pillars, and my two ZKK 602 (.375 H&H and rebarreled and endlessly customized Griffin & Howe .340 Wby) were glass bedded. In these two rifles, the pillars were adjusted to the stock depth.

I actually believe Milan that you are 100% on. These ZK 602 were (and I suspect the CZ 550 still are) assembled by hand and final inletting varies.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

I agree with you Kawshik Rahman and I too, like sestoppelman, enjoy your writing, and I have no doubt that IvW uses a Brno sxs loaded with Brenneke slugs (or equivalent) as, in his words: "a poor man's double" and I too have seen his pictures of it. I will further add that I agree with him on the devastating effect of 12 gauge solid slugs at short range. I have literally balled over enough wild boars (sangliers) in France myself with a similar setup to attest to it. I will also add, which is generally not known, that I provided IvW with a substantial amount of private technical guidance last year to set up his long-range baboon-control rifle...

I also agree with many general comments IvW makes on wounded leopard follow-ups; use of soft bullets to double-lung buffalo; improvements of mono-metal bullets; or any number of subjects that have been discussed at length in printed magazines or electronic blogs (as this one) for over 50 years, and that are easy to repeat/quote/copy/etc. Nowadays, with the proliferation of knowledge-sharing (this AfricaHunting blog being the perfect example) I am not sure that "only a professional hunter would know." For example, I am NOT a PH, nor did I ever pretend to be one, but the buff in my avatar was a true one-shot buff (not even the "insurance shot" was needed) killed with a single .470 double-lung shot, which I can talk convincingly about; I converted to mono-metal slugs, and I can explain cogently why; I read plenty of leopard follow-up books and blogs, and I saw plenty of YouTube videos of it, and I too would adamantly repeat the inefficiency of buck-shot for great cats even though I have never hunted the great cats, never mind followed a wounded one. This is the challenge of the internet age, when everyone is an expert, no peer review takes place, and no authenticity check exists...

To respectfully paraphrase your statement Kawshik Rahman, "Perhaps , l am just a naive 77 year old man who trusts too easily, but to me , he seems very real," well then, perhaps, l am just a cynical 61 year old man who has been exposed too much to book expertise (a lot of that in my professional life...) and who doubts too easily of 'internet experts', but to me, too much of IvW challenging the sincerity of other members rests on technical statements that are factually wrong. As to whether he is or is not (or was or was not) a licensed PH; which countries he is (or was) licensed in; what outfitters he guides (or guided) for, etc. it seems that those should be pretty easy to state. For example, what I personally like a lot Kawshik Rahman, in your writing, is the profusion of pictures that make it clear that you are sharing your life's experience rather than writing a very well documented novel.

I have nothing for or against IvW, rest assured, but it somehow strikes me the wrong way when he challenges what other members state based on factually erroneous, although definitive judgments. In this latest case, Hoss is neither lying nor wrong, even though IvW may have never experienced what Hoss describes.

But my Father, were he still alive, would likely tell me right now: "Son, you are carrying water which is not yours to carry" (or words to that effect in French) and he would be right

One day
Thank you so much for your kind words and support . A French gentleman , you are ? You have a most beautiful country and food , Mon Ami . Also , among bolt operation rifles , the French Brevex is a personal favorite of mine ( which makes it particularly depressing that no one manufactures it anymore ) . Even though , we can respectfully have a difference of opinion about IvW ( which is natural , as no two people can ever think alike on all topics ) , l find everything else that you say most agreeable .
And yes , Hoss Delgado's rifle can certainly hold seven cartridges , although l cannot comment on the technical aspect of it . I have no doubt that you are telling the truth of your own experiences in the field.

 

[One Day...]

Yes indeed, French by birth and first 30 years of life, American by choice and second 30 years of life.
IvW is a good man. We all are wrong, or exaggerating a bit from time to time, aren't we...
Ah but the Brevex action! Yes indeed! Best of the best of the old ones?
There are two (and maybe a few more) for sale right now in the US. One with .375 bolt face and one with .416 Rigby bolt face. $2,795 and $2,895 for the action only... Ouch!

 

[IvW]

I honestly do not understand what appears to be a personal attack on my comments regarding this issue.

I have not called anybody a liar and I am trying to figure out how safely loading seven rounds into a standard 375H&H on a ZKK 602 action is done. I own 2 of these rifles and I cannot do this without possible damage to the rifle. As the picture of Hoss Delgado's rifle clearly indicates that it apears to be 100% original.

Ohhhh.
The scientific answer for the 7 shot mystery is this : It's meant to hold 6 without needing to slip the extractor over the rim of the last Cartridge. Some genius at the BRNO factory probably figured out that by inletting the Magazine floor plate a little deeper in the stock , you could fit in one more round.

The point IvW misses in his remark:

...is that the floor plates that are inletted into the stock a little less (NOT a little further as IvW seems to think) provide just a little more depth to the magazine. Those who own ZKK 602 or CZ 550 are sure to have noted that very often the floor plate (and cross bolts, if present) on these, are inletted below the surface of the wood. Occasionally some are inletted less deep or flush with the surface of the wood, and in consequence their magazine is just a little deeper.

I never missed that point, I replied to the comment made by Hoss Delgado which is quoted above"Some genius at the BRNO factory probably figured out that by inletting the Magazine floor plate a little deeper in the stock , you could fit in one more round."

Genius indeed.

Loading 6 in the mag and then push feeding the 7th one and having the extractor snap over the rim as the round chambers, does not exactly constitute the right way of doing it and the rifle was never designed to be operated like that.

@ Hoss Delgado can you please explain to us or make a short video as requested so we can see how you go about operating this 7 shot ZKK...

Then you proceed with sarcastic and derogatory remarks for some reason which is not really called for.

and our good friend IvW found an issue with that...

Don't know how many ZK 602 / CZ 550 you have actually handled in your life IvW, but this IS a standard factory issued CZ 550, my dear friend. Short of being in a room and handling 50 of them, I actually encourage you to visit any internet auction site and verify for yourself by looking at their pictures. The vast majority of these ZKK 602 / CZ 550 rifles are inletted exactly as the picture I posted above shows. Do yourself the favor and check it for yourself before your next bout of patronizing/lecturing other members

Correct it is a CZ550 but it I said it is not a standard ZKK602 which is not the same thing.

I have handled more than my fair share and own 4 ZZK rifles, 3 of which are ZKK 602's. 1 is a stock standard ZKK602 in 375 H&H with straight stock, the second is a custom one also in 375 H&H. The action was bought separately and came from a doner 458WM. It has a 24" barrel fitted. The stock came from a old original ZKK 602 rifle and the action and barrel was fitted to this stock. The mag follower was replaced with a 375 H&H one. The third one is a custom 500 Jeff. Magazine, box, follower and rails where changed to ensure reliable feeding. I do not go on auction sites to see what they look like when I have the real thing I can look at or strip and check things.

bouts of patronizing/lecturing other members...WOW

You have posted enough authoritative (and generally demeaning to other members - that is the part that ticks me off) "technical" statements that proved utterly wrong, for the year or so I have read you, so that I could not really care less... As to your PH lifelong experience, a number of us are still waiting to see any picture of you with a DG trophy and/or a client, or to know which outfitter(s) you guide or guided for, or which country you are or were licensed in, etc. etc.

Clearly you take differences of opinion way to seriously and the way you put it sounds like I am just here to piss of members rather than share my experience which also appears to hold no ground with you.

I have mentioned it before and will again, I did not join this forum to post pictures of how many of this or that I have hunted and honestly are not here to prove anything to anybody.

I will also add, which is generally not known, that I provided IvW with a substantial amount of private technical guidance last year to set up his long-range baboon-control rifle...

For which I was grateful and thanked you.

and who doubts too easily of 'internet experts', but to me, too much of IvW challenging the sincerity of other members rests on technical statements that are factually wrong. As to whether he is or is not (or was or was not) a licensed PH; which countries he is (or was) licensed in; what outfitters he guides (or guided) for; which DG species he actually hunted; etc.

I have nothing for or against IvW, rest assured, but it somehow strikes me the wrong way when he challenges what other members state based on factually erroneous, although very definitive, judgments. In this latest case, Hoss, Milan or myself are neither lying nor wrong, even though IvW may have never experienced what we describe.

I ques if it is that bad I shall refrain from commenting on subjects I do not agree with or have a difference of opinion with.

 

[TOBY458]

And to think......all of this started based on all of us having a mutual admiration for the good ole 375 H&H. Please remember fellas, we're all friends here. None of my 375 rifles hold over 4 in the magazine, so you ALL have me beat!

 

[Milan]

I think that no ZKK or CZ was "designed" to hold 6 rounds. But rather they were designed for multiple calibers and they designed them to hold 4 or 5 rounds of even the bigger cartridges. A good example of that would be ZKK 601 designed to hold 5 rounds of .308. The same model in .223 would hold 6 rounds. Why? Dimensionally same stock and bottom metal, thus same depth of magazine box but containing slimmer rounds. ZKK 602 designed for bigger than .375 H&H but with .375 H&H as the slimmest rounds can sometimes safely accommodate 6 of those. The differences between those that can or cannot take 6 rounds in this case would be due to some manufacturing tolerances and/or fitment of specific stock.

I also think .602 was made in .300 WM, anybody have one that fits 6 rounds?

As to snapping claw extractor over the rim...I started another thread on this as this interests me greatly...some do so easily, some are harder to do it with, some cannot do it at all. All depending on the amount of bevel surface of the claw. Should it snap over the rim? I like the feature and never had an issue, but I rarely do it. Is it good for the extractor? Probably not. Can you break it this way? Most likely. Does beveling it make it weaker? I would think so. Does it weaken it to a point of making it susceptible to stripping and not extracting a stuck case? Depends.

What I would like to see is some broken extractors and some stripped ones where the damage was due to these conditions...they must exist but I have not seen them. And those that happened, was it due to metal fatigue of 1 too many snaps over the rim? Or the bevel not being deep or angled enough in the first place and thus over stressing the extractor? Those that were beveled too much and stripped... was it just that (not enough material left on the edge) or will any beveled claw eventually fail to extract?

When I look at amount of metal grabbing the case vs extractor actually designed to snap over the rim (like the good old Sako one for example), is the beveled Mauser one really weaker?

Once again sorry for any hi-jack of original discussion. To get back on topic, I think the .375 is one of the greatest cartridges ever.

 

[TOBY458]

I think that no ZKK or CZ was "designed" to hold 6 rounds. But rather they were designed for multiple calibers and they designed them to hold 4 or 5 rounds of even the bigger cartridges. A good example of that would be ZKK 601 designed to hold 5 rounds of .308. The same model in .223 would hold 6 rounds. Why? Dimensionally same stock and bottom metal, thus same depth of magazine box but containing slimmer rounds. ZKK 602 designed for bigger than .375 H&H but with .375 H&H as the slimmest rounds can sometimes safely accommodate 6 of those. The differences between those that can or cannot take 6 rounds in this case would be due to some manufacturing tolerances and/or fitment of specific stock.

I also think .602 was made in .300 WM, anybody have one that fits 6 rounds?

As to snapping claw extractor over the rim...I started another thread on this as this interests me greatly...some do so easily, some are harder to do it with, some cannot do it at all. All depending on the amount of bevel surface of the claw. Should it snap over the rim? I like the feature and never had an issue, but I rarely do it. Is it good for the extractor? Probably not. Can you break it this way? Most likely. Does beveling it make it weaker? I would think so. Does it weaken it to a point of making it susceptible to stripping and not extracting a stuck case? Depends.

What I would like to see is some broken extractors and some stripped ones where the damage was due to these conditions...they must exist but I have not seen them. And those that happened, was it due to metal fatigue of 1 too many snaps over the rim? Or the bevel not being deep or angled enough in the first place and thus over stressing the extractor? Those that were beveled too much and stripped... was it just that (not enough material left on the edge) or will any beveled claw eventually fail to extract?

When I look at amount of metal grabbing the case vs extractor actually designed to snap over the rim (like the good old Sako one for example), is the beveled Mauser one really weaker?

Once again sorry for any hi-jack of original discussion. To get back on topic, I think the .375 is one of the greatest cartridges ever.

Also, some makers such as Winchester used to use a cast extractor. I believe I heard they had some problems with those breaking. That may be why they changed over to a spring steel extractor on the current rifles.

 

[Milan]

Also, some makers such as Winchester used to use a cast extractor. I believe I heard they had some problems with those breaking. That may be why they changed over to a spring steel extractor on the current rifles.

Cast metal extractor breaking I get but I wonder about those made just like original Mauser (and especially old original Mauser ones) and beveled "properly".

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Cast metal extractor breaking I get but I wonder about those made just like original Mauser (and especially old original Mauser ones) and beveled "properly".

Milan
I confess to know nothing about the zkk 602 rifle . However , l have seen one original mauser mechanism rifle sustain a broken ejector in the Shikar field in 1966 . It was a custom made .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle , built on a salvaged military surplus mauser mechanism . The name of the firm who made it was " Walter Abe " . To be fair , however , it was a salvaged military surplus mauser mechanism ( which may not be the most fair representative of it's class ) . Also , the client was a repeat client who had been using the rifle for three Shikar seasons already. He had a habit of always loading one extra cartridge into the rifle by getting the extractor to slip over the rim of the extra cartridge . He initially had no problems for the first two years . In 1966 , while on following the tracks of a large male Gaur , he went to do this practice again . However , this time , the ejector broke .

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

As Milan says, to get back on topic I show some pictures I have on hand about the use of my Win 70 .375 H&H. Ah, by the way, the original pre 64s in 300 and 375 H&H were designed with a 4 cartridge magazines "as the Mauser way ".

In the first three, many years ago, the rifle has a Schmidt & Bender 1,25-4x20 scope.
The load was a 270 Hornady.
In the picture with one of my son the scope is the Z. Victory 1,5-6x42 and the bullet a Nosler Partition 260 grs.
In the last two the scope is the Z Diatal ZA 4x32. The load, Nosler Accubond 260 grs. You can see it, just fouad under the opposite shoulder skin.

Best

 

[Forrest Halley]

Two of my .375's hold one in the chamber and have an endless external magazine! I declare myself winner of the magazine capacity challenge!

 

[One Day...]

Long live the belt fed .375

IvW, just to help, you tend to pronounce very uncompromising and final judgments that imply that other members are wrong. This is where the push back comes from , especially when you are incorrect. By all means keep posting, but allow for the fact that other members also know what they are talking about

The answer to the extractor question is as follows...

I have already posted a similar explanation somewhere on AH so those who have already seen it will forgive the repetition...

When the German military commissioned the development of what became the Mauser 98, some of the specifications that they had were:

• better extraction (a classic problem with earlier soft copper metallic cartridge casings and dirty black powder);
• no possibility of double feeding (a classic problem when not fully cycling the bolt);
• no possibility of accidentally loading the rifle (a classic issue when closing an action unknowingly on a loaded chamber).

These were rational requests, since #2 and #3 continue to happen with push feed rifles to this day...

The famed Mauser "claw" extractor accomplished all three:

• By riding outside of the bolt and capturing the cartridge out of the magazine under the extractor and literally carrying it into the chamber, the bolt cannot unknowingly leave a cartridge in the chamber if it is retracted before it is closed. A push feed will leave a cartridge in the chamber unless the bolt is actually closed on the cartridge and the extractor is snapped over the cartridge head to capture it. The external claw extractor captures the cartridge as it pops out of the magazine, before the bolt is closed. The claw extractor therefore makes it virtually impossible to double feed a second round on top of one already in the chamber because it cannot leave a round anywhere in the raceway or chamber after taking it out of the magazine.
• To strengthen the extraction AND to prevent closing the bolt unknowingly on a loaded chamber Mauser designed an extractor that COULD NOT SNAP over a cartridge head. Repeat COULD NOT. The design was a very wide extractor, outside the bolt head, that was tightly maintained against the bolt head and cartridge head by the internal wall of the front bridge of the action, without the mechanical possibility of snapping over the head either when extracting a stuck case, or closing the bolt on a round in the chamber.

Original Mauser military rifles have a non-beveled extractor that CANNOT by design snap over a cartridge head. They MUST be loaded from the chamber, hence the cartridges must be engaged under the extractor before they get to the chamber. NO possibility of double feed. NO possibility of failed extraction, unless about a third of the cartridge head is ripped out, which is about impossible.

The "problem" is that when Mauser actions reached the commercial market and became widely distributed to not-so-proficient and not-so-knowledgeable mass hunters, darn few sales people took the time to explain this to customers, or likely even knew it themselves, and darn few customers read the user's manual, or listen to 'manual of arm' explanations anyway. As a consequence, a number of folks started to complain that their bolt could not close...

Long story short, manufacturers started to "fix" the "problem" by beveling the extractor so that it could snap over a cartridge head and the bolt could always close. This creates stress on the extractor that was not designed to do this, and sooner or later, as Kawshik Rahman reports, the extractor will break. This also negates a wonderful safety feature of the original Mauser action (the impossibility to close the bolt on a loaded chamber and to unknowingly load the rifle). This also negates most of the fail-proof extraction capability of the action, although this is rarely a problem with modern ammo...

Since the extractors are bevelled by hand when installed, some are bevelled more, or less, than others, and as Milan observed, some with snap more or less easily over a cartridge head.

The reason why it is a bad idea to snap the extractor over a cartridge head, even those extractors machined from spring metal (as opposed to: cast from pot metal) is that the stress is applied to lift the extractor head away from the bolt head, which the entire design of the extractor was intended to prevent to begin with. Notice that the extractor's entire body is rounded to ride the round bolt. To snap over a cartridge head, the metal is asked to flex to the outside of the rounding radius. Never a good idea...

I hope this explanation helps

 

[Pondoro]

I am also a big fan of the .375H&H...some of my fondest hunting memories have been with such rifles..

What is incredibly sad is that Holland & Holland today do not know who constructed it...one of the greatest if not THE greatest hunting cartridge and we dont know who thought it out.. no records..