The end of canned lion hunting looks imminent

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

A motion has been passed that disassociates PHASA with the captive-bred lion industry until such a time that the industry can convince PHASA and the IUCN that the practice is beneficial to lion conservation.

I think before we arrive at conclusions and start making predictions we should stop and consider these words from the PHASA statement and look at the history of this issue. I say this as one who supports RSA lion hunting of raised lions even though I've never been on one and may never even if I can. The simple reason for that is that it does keep lion breeders in business and the conservation of the African lion may someday depend on these operations.

A bit of reflection on the history.....

1. There are members of our international hunting community that are opposed and some quite strongly so to raised lion hunting in RSA. I've read many of those arguments against over and over again and while I disagree with many, some seem valid to me. Regardless of what I think of their arguments, until they have been made to change their minds, it's a most difficult situation to fight for saving RSA lion hunting. I'm also certain that hurling insults and making unsubstantiated claims against our fellow hunters is not a strategy for success.

2. One of if not the leading cause of trouble for RSA lion hunting is how the term "canned" it seems is how this hunting is almost always referred to. At it's worst "canned" brings up images of a lion within a small enclosure with a shooter putting a bullet through or over the fence. It also includes whether we like it or not, the very real videos of "hunters" going after cats that have been recently released in proximity to the "hunt" still feeling the effects of sedation and completely unfamiliar with its surroundings. It wouldn't totally surprise me if there were AH'ers who unwittingly/unknowingly have been on such hunts. Do these unethical operators represent a majority, a significant minority or very insignificant minority of the RSA lion hunt operators? I don't know, but I really don't think it matters. The perception is unfortunately reality for many that it is the majority or at least a way too significant minority.

3. "Cecil" - DSC/SCI and whoever else were caught not being prepared for such a situation. I hope that those organizations have learned from it, but the fact is you can't undo what was done and we lost ground there in the court of world opinion.

4. Blood Lions - I haven't seen it, not even any clips so I can't speak to it, but I get the overall gist. Lion's being bred in less than ideal conditions, is it any different than the puppy mills here in the U.S.? I haven't had a hunting dog in years, but I assure you if I ever do again it won't come from such an operation.

So all that said, let's look at the opening that PHASA left if their statement. I remarked to Jacques shortly after the Cecil situation came out that PHASA needed to step in and find a way to promote the good of RSA lion hunting and rid itself of the bad. It seems from there statement that there is an opening at PHASA, but changes will be required. Can this in the end be a good thing? I think it's time to name and shame the unethical operators. It may also be time for better cooperation between the various African nations and team effort in lion conservation. If this action by PHASA is the catalyst to bring such positive changes about, then I say good for them.

In the end this event could be a sign of the end of lion hunting, but I hope not. I think the one thing to keep in mind, is the U.S. nor any other country not in Africa can tell you if you can hunt or not. Only the African nations can do that. Elephant hunting has not been banned in Zimbabwe or Tanzania, you just can't bring any parts back to the U.S. Now I have the luxury of having some taxidermy from Africa with more in the making. But if I had the time and money to go to Zim for an ele hunt, I'd go and screw the U.S. gov't. You're not going to stop me from going hunting, I'll have replicas made if that's what it comes down to or just be satisfied with pictures. Taxidermy just serves as a reminder of the hunts I've been on and I'm glad to have it, but at this point if all I could bring back were digital images then so be it. Would I go lion hunting under the same circumstances? Yes I would. Would I be disappointed if I couldn't have the pleasure of a lion mount in my home, yes I would but it's not going to stop me from enjoying the experience.

So I say lets stay positive that this is a turning point which will make things better and not worse and don't let the gov't stop you from being the hunter/conservationist over taxidermy.

Yes! Absolutely Phil. Wise words spoken there.

 

[Ridge Top Ranch]

I think canned lion hunting will end. Wild lions will continue to be hunted at even greater expense than today. It will price most people out of the market just like Rhino. SCI may need to revise Big 5 to Big 3 till we lose elephant then to Big 2, Then once leopard are restricted or closed we will be down to the Big 1, Buffalo.

I believe they anti's will go after color variants next since they are not defensible from a conservation standpoint. And finally small hunting properties less than a couple thousand acres will be closed.

Hunting in Africa will continue as more pressure is put on land for people, cattle and crops. Larger cooperatives where multiple landowners join together will be the future for my grandchildren. Preserving/conserving wildlife with natural breeding populations while providing a sporting hunt to remove excess animals will be a model that antis will have a hard time fighting since the alternative is overcrowded parks with overcrowded animals doomed to breed and eat themselves into extinction.

Saw all this evolve during my 40 plus years in the retail pet trade. Fewer choices, higher prices.

 

[billc]

I know this is a slippery slope but does all hunting need to be or is only a value if it is about conservation. I know when I started it was not to save anything. It was to get out with friends and family to enjoy a sport not many others did. As time went on I learned more of why some people hunt. Today I realize as a hunter conservation is one of the things we do as hunters. But I do not only hunt because of that.

So am I not a hunter because of this. Yes I believe in conservation and dam well know we hunters are needed now more then ever based on that. Do I wish everything was the same as when I grew up for my son now hell yes. I wish he had the pheasant hunting I did growing up but he does not. Now we go down to a place pay 200 bucks get 10 birds and go hunt. What is the difference from when I grew up with doing this hunt. The main thing is I pay 200 to go hunt some birds. We know there is 10 birds to hunt and we walk or use dogs just the same. Birds go up we shoot hope we hit and make a good clean kill. What is the value to hunting from this hunt the answer is one thing and it is what must guys are missing. The value is it keeps a new hunter wanting to hunt which is not happening enough in this day and age. The only other value has nothing really to do with hunting but it is the value I put on it to spend time with my son.

So what value do raised lions have on hunting? First one it does take poaching pressure off wild lions by supplying the bone demand for china. Yes they could raise them on there own and yes then the rancher who raises lions would lose that money coming for hunting. So some guy is getting the must he can from a animal he raised with his money by selling it to be hunted instead of just killing for the bones. Kind of the same deal as the guy who raised the pheasants I buy to hunt. Only difference to must who have a problem with raised lions is they have a higher respect for a lion over a pheasant. I see them one and the same a wild animal that I enjoy hunting
The second value is the raised lions gets people to go to africa to spend money. If hunter dollars help wildlife well that is money being spent. Even raised lions comes with cost that goes to wildlife departments. Must hunters also hunt other animals during the trip which is money going to help the cause. The local people get jobs and that has a value also.

Did the people raising the lion and those who sold hunt hurt themselves when it all started. Well yes they did and must who caused some of the problems are gone now. Is it a perfect system hell no can it be made better yes it can. Are the good outfitters trying to make it better. I think so and I know guys like pieter,jaques,marius and other Ph's on here do the hunts the right way.

I think it is time us hunters start picking the battles we want to fight and go after the other side. Time to stop fighting with each other because it maybe something that is not for us a person.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Did the people raising the lion and those who sold hunt hurt themselves when it all started. Well yes they did and must who caused some of the problems are gone now.

Can't disagree with anything in your last post, but I do wonder how we know that most of those bringing problems are now gone? I don't recall seeing anything as I say naming and shaming those individuals and getting them out of the business, but perhaps I missed it?

More importantly even if most of the bad has been removed, there is always someone willing to move in who may see what they think is an easy buck (or Rand) to be made? So what procedure/policy/law is in place to see that they're removed? How do we as guests to RSA know or at least be confident that there is regulation in place and being enforced to ensure we're not as hunters a part of the problem?

 

[Bruce]

Do you honestly think that Zambia and Tanzania can supply the demand so that all hunters can be real lionhunters? If I am not mistaking Zambia also banned Lion hunting recently and after realizing their mistake it was quickly reopened again.

OBVIOUSLY not and the FEW permits issued annually in ALL countries together don't even get close to the demand...I hunted a BLONDE maned lion in the Selous years ago and always wanted the MGM black maned brother, BUT it was virtually impossible with MOST lion permits being sold at the USA shows years in advance..as a local South African it was virtually impossible to get "in "on a lion hunt... I was fortunate in 2005 in that a friend PH of mine had a cancellation hunt, and this entailed a lion permit... I then IMMEDIATELY booked a 21 x day hunt and got that lion permit.
To get that MGM guy years later meant that I had to swallow my pride and do a BEST POSSIBLE FENCED HUNT.. I have that MGM full mount at home... yet when I look at my trophies in general and see BOTH full mount lions, my heart is not really into that MGM guy... the post hunt feeling is just not the same... BUT, I DID IT!!

NOW, I see on this forum that guys are saying that 85% of these captive raised lions will be euthanized anyway?? So where is the logic now... surely get these LAST ALLOWED lions to be hunted and at least generate some revenue!!

 

[Foxi]

@ lbg,

in Zambia there was so often an irreal logic for hunting or closing the cats.
When I was there ,the new big lady of the environment and agriculture ministry closed lionhunting with the argument "Corruption" by the award of the hunting propertys.The reality was "she got no money".
The lady has been kicked out and cats was open.
A Lionhunt costs there 65.000 USD
Leopard not quite the half.
You can wait to the next minister, who is getting no money from the operators and cats are closed.
This is Africa and his tragedy.
The Canned Lion Question in RSA has nothing to do with the temporarily cats ban in Zambia.
Sure,the generally pressure is always getting harder to kick out the hunter.

Gentlemen,be sure, that we are the last generation, who can hunt Dangerous Game in african wilderness.
Carpe diem
Foxi

 

[Mike70560]

Brick are you saying that "Ranched lion" hunts are not helping to relieve pressure on "wild lion" hunts?

I will answer that. In a word no.

Legal quotas are set in Tanzania, Zimbabwe, etc. Those quotas cannot be exceeded. The quotas are not set by demand. They are set by conservation practices.

Shooting pen raised lions in South Africa has nothing to do with lion conservation in other countries.

Make no mistake the HSUS/PETA crowd wants to end all hunting. They are not my major concern, we will not change their minds, no more than they will change my view on hunting.

My concern is the vast majority of the population who are basically neutral on hunting. When they turn against us we are doomed. Shooting a lion in an enclosure that was released the day before is hard to defend in the eyes of the general public.

Either we evolve or die.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I will answer that. In a word no.

Legal quotas are set in Tanzania, Zimbabwe, etc. Those quotas cannot be exceeded. The quotas are not set by demand. They are set by conservation practices.

Shooting pen raised lions in South Africa has nothing to do with lion conservation in other countries.

Make no mistake the HSUS/PETA crowd wants to end all hunting. They are not my major concern, we will not change their minds, no more than they will change my view on hunting.

My concern is the vast majority of the population who are basically neutral on hunting. When they turn against us we are doomed. Shooting a lion in an enclosure that was released the day before is hard to defend in the eyes of the general public.

Either we evolve or die.

Mike have to agree as I said it is impossible to defend it with moral conviction.
Spot on sir.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Brick are you saying that "Ranched lion" hunts are not helping to relieve pressure on "wild lion" hunts?

I think that is a theoretical idea.
If someone can show me the research that shows hunters with the means would prefer to hunt Ranched Lions I'll believe it.

It is easy to relieve pressure on Wild Lions. Price them so high that very few people can afford it.

I think they are two different products with two different markets of consumers.
That's all.

Both are cars:
eg. Toyota Corolla $15,000 vs Ferrari $400,000.


I just went to Mozambique and hunted a Sable. I did not hunt an Elephant.
$5000 vs $100,000 trophy fee.
That Elephant is safe from me any time soon.

 

[Red Leg]

I will answer that. In a word no.

Legal quotas are set in Tanzania, Zimbabwe, etc. Those quotas cannot be exceeded. The quotas are not set by demand. They are set by conservation practices.

Shooting pen raised lions in South Africa has nothing to do with lion conservation in other countries.

Make no mistake the HSUS/PETA crowd wants to end all hunting. They are not my major concern, we will not change their minds, no more than they will change my view on hunting.

My concern is the vast majority of the population who are basically neutral on hunting. When they turn against us we are doomed. Shooting a lion in an enclosure that was released the day before is hard to defend in the eyes of the general public.

Either we evolve or die.

Exactly. Particularly a practice which a meaningful part of the hunting population also finds a least questionable if not reprehensible.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..................... I wish he had the pheasant hunting I did growing up but he does not. Now we go down to a place pay 200 bucks get 10 birds and go hunt. What is the difference from when I grew up with doing this hunt. The main thing is I pay 200 to go hunt some birds. We know there is 10 birds to hunt and we walk or use dogs just the same. Birds go up we shoot hope we hit and make a good clean kill. ..........................

This is fairly close to home for me as I do hunt Pheasants (wild and released) and it brought to mind a question or two for me.

Perhaps, if there was more habitat conservation you/we would still be able to hunt wild Pheasants with your/our son like the good old days.

Releasing Pheasants and releasing Lions. Is there a difference?
Both Pen or Ranch raised for a purpose.
Both purchased by a consumer.

Do you release the birds and shoot them out of the box?
I doubt you do. It is not particularly sporting, but you did buy them.

Do you have someone else release them and show up a half hour later and "hope" you find them?
Probably, that would make it more of a hunt.

We all try to make good clean kills, no matter the quarry or its geographic location.

A difference I can immediately see between the two raised species:
Lions can kill someone, so there is no way they can be allowed to escape an enclosure.
(note where the hunting locations are mandated by law in RSA. Far far away from most people.)
Pheasants will not kill anyone and they can fly over any preserve fence and end up in the wild.

For me I think the Pheasant at least has a chance to live out his life in some ditch of his choosing if he out smarts me or leaves the reserve.

Fenced hunting in general disturbed me when I first encountered the concept in Africa (it is totally illegal in my home jurisdiction). I had a lot of thinking and learning to do to understand the concept of a "self sustaining" environment and then how to minimize the effect of fences on my hunts in Africa. I decided that extremely large properties was the only way I could accept a fence.


Note: I am not attacking anyone, just sharing my musings on the topic and where I seem to get tripped up.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Does anyone know if any raised lions have ever been released into the wild in an effort to repopulate areas now void of lions? This most certainly a complicated situation.

But my understanding is that the lions released on properties for hunting will grow hungry in a short period of time and begin to hunt their own food. Some may not believe the lions are out there that long to do this, but not all operations are the same and in fact this occurs. From what I understand these same lions will at least at first avoid the humans that are hunting them. Once pushed enough they'll stand their ground and fight, but initially choose to flee. And since they're inclined to procreate in captivity I would presume they have no problem with wild sex either.

I would guess that there would be some problems with restoring lions populations with these raised lions, but if its never been tried.......

 

[Mike70560]

Phil,

I know of one instance that South African lions were brought in to Mozambique in 2009 to help rebuild the lion population. I am sure others have been sold to zoos and circuses.

The industry has never been touted as a conservation tool to rebuild wild lion populations in other countries.

 

[Ryno Botma]

Yes but does releasing them in these areas justify hunting them when is the area big enough to say wild lion and not canned ?

These are lions and act instinctively a captive bread lion can hunt and survive that is what animals do but in the eyes of the antis your still hunting a canned lion even though it was introduced to a big are

This debate can go on and on like brickburn said what is the difference in hunting captive bread pheasants and lions ?

If you don't feel comfortable with these hunts don't

We just need to phase out the rotten operations that are doing these hunts the wrong way and giving all hunters a bad name

Kind regards

 

[Mike70560]

Mike have to agree as I said it is impossible to defend it with moral conviction.
Spot on sir.

Jaco,

The apocalypse is upon us. Two posts by me in a row on which we agree.

Hope to see you in Dallas or Vegas.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I have seen a picture of a Male Lion in a Boma in Mozambique that was scheduled to be released to reintroduce Lions to the area. I thought I shared here on AH.

Here is an offer about this Lion population:
"Escape to the wild Mozambique bush where you will learn bush survival skills, track the recently released lion population, join in with our biodiversity research, help with reserve management, go on anti-poaching walks and enjoy the amazing variety of wildlife Mozambique has to offer. Njiri Eco Camp is their new safari camp in the Manica province of Mozambique."


The most recent reintroduction in Rwanda.

"Phinda has helped establish other lion populations in private game reserves in the Eastern Cape, Zululand, Mpumalanga, North West and the Limpopo Province, as well as neighbouring Mozambique."

 

[billc]

Brickburn I totally get that and respect the fact you dont judge those that hunt outside of the ways you do.

I feel it is the right thing to do and not attack other hunters just like you said. Fenced hunting is not for everyone and everyone has there ideas of what works for them. If I was in the shoes of some living in the country some guys do my mind would more then likely look at in different to. Sad to say I dont have the wild kind of hunting anymore in my area and buying pheasant or paying to hunt is the way it goes. It sucks but making a living has stopped me from moving were I may have some more freedom hunt wise.
My point of all my ramblings as hunters we should be supporting hunters or at least not judging others by there choices. Kind of makes me sick to my stomach thinking some hunters think the antis winning this battle is a good thing.

I can only base my comments on the place we hunted dakotas lioness. I am basing my comment on what happened on actully doing a raised lion hunt. I am not guessing or talking about what I heard or what someone told me.Giving facts on the hunt we did. The lion was not drugged laying under some tree and was out for over 2 weeks hunting on her own.Also at the same time jacques of hartzview was hunting a male lion who was out for weeks also and that lion was giving them all they could handle during there hunt. There was known to be 5 lions out and tracks showing there was more out then what was being hunted at the time. One lioness that we were hoping to get was out for over 6 month. She had been seen but never shot at during those month. Can see get out and be free well no but she was hunted often with no luck. Because as you said a lion can kill and a pheasant can not there is rules and laws that make sure that lioness lives in that 10,000 plus acres.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil,

I know of one instance that South African lions were brought in to Mozambique in 2009 to help rebuild the lion population. I am sure others have been sold to zoos and circuses.

The industry has never been touted as a conservation tool to rebuild wild lion populations in other countries.

Yes but does releasing them in these areas justify hunting them when is the area big enough to say wild lion and not canned ?

These are lions and act instinctively a captive bread lion can hunt and survive that is what animals do but in the eyes of the antis your still hunting a canned lion even though it was introduced to a big are

This debate can go on and on like brickburn said what is the difference in hunting captive bread pheasants and lions ?

If you don't feel comfortable with these hunts don't

We just need to phase out the rotten operations that are doing these hunts the wrong way and giving all hunters a bad name

Kind regards

I have seen a picture of a Male Lion in a Boma in Mozambique that was scheduled to be released to reintroduce Lions to the area. I thought I shared here on AH.

Here is an offer about this Lion population:
"Escape to the wild Mozambique bush where you will learn bush survival skills, track the recently released lion population, join in with our biodiversity research, help with reserve management, go on anti-poaching walks and enjoy the amazing variety of wildlife Mozambique has to offer. Njiri Eco Camp is their new safari camp in the Manica province of Mozambique."


The most recent reintroduction in Rwanda.

"Phinda has helped establish other lion populations in private game reserves in the Eastern Cape, Zululand, Mpumalanga, North West and the Limpopo Province, as well as neighbouring Mozambique."

View attachment 51908

There seems to be two separate issues in regards to RSA lion hunting. There's the actual hunt and how it is conducted and done so poorly, it is as some would say a shoot.

The second issue is the raising of lions and being done so only for hunting purposes. Well if there's another purpose for the lions coming out the breeding operations (and not just for zoos and circuses) meaning directly contributing to restoration in depleted areas, then I'd say that is a contribution to conservation.

But as I think most are prone to say, if it pays it stays. As such then the lion breeders will likely need alternative markets to make the business successful. If lion hunting in RSA is one of these alternative markets, then I think its a reasonable argument to make that RSA lion hunting creates a demand for lion breeders who in turn supply lions for conservation.

Flawed thinking?

 

[Odinsraven]

I'd call a government, and especially an African government, doing something in two years "quickly."

I would call it a f**king miracle .....

 

[wesheltonj]

Interesting. I really don't have a problem with Ranch lions as long as they have not just been released. I don't see a problem hunting behind a fence either. Without fences in Texas, no one would be hunting Scimitar-Horned Oryx. From what I understand a lot of the Game in South Africa is put and take on large tracks or even small tracks of land. Without hunting that $1200 Kuku would have a worth of about next to nothing for meat. Don't fall into HSUS trap of using loaded words like "canned", "trophy hunting" and divide and conquer.