The end of canned lion hunting looks imminent

[Mekaniks]

Very good news Jerome.
A canned lion has nothing to do with hunting.
Nothing!
All of you knows that.
Its only a shameful shooting of a throphy for a lot of money.
Hunt lions in Zambia,hunt them in Tansania and you see what a real lionhunter is.
Foxi
View attachment 51841

Respectfully I think you have it upside down Foxi. If they quit raising lions to hunt and the only lions left hunt are "wild populations", then they have essentially begun the extinction of the species. The remaining lions that hunters do not take will be killed by poachers and ranchers. It's a steep down slope for lion populations from here.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Not being spun at all.

• 19 NOVEMBER 2015

News24Wire (Cape Town)
South Africa: SA's Trophy Hunting Industry Disowns Half-Tame Lion Hunting

 

[Red Leg]

Respectfully I think you have it upside down Foxi. If they quit raising lions to hunt and the only lions left hunt are "wild populations", then they have essentially begun the extinction of the species. The remaining lions that hunters do not take will be killed by poachers and ranchers. It's a steep down slope for lion populations from here.

Respectfully, this is the argument the antis make. Trophy hunters are killing them all (insert species). The truth is that hunting is a conservation effort which gives value to animals that would otherwise be destroyed by local inhabitants (for protein or out of fear) or by poaching. The only reason these dangerous carnivores exist in much of their range is because their trophy value exceeds the value of their depravations. End trophy hunting, and we will have signed the death warrant to all wild lion populations. The few remaining will all be Cecils performing for tourists in national parks. Fenced lion hunting does nothing to support that conservation effort. It simply provides a legal means for someone to kill a lion - I deliberately did not use the term "hunt".

 

[LivingTheDream]

Regardless of where you stand on the issue, if your opinion is being cheered on by anti hunting groups, then it is not good for hunting overall. Just my 2 cents.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

A motion has been passed that disassociates PHASA with the captive-bred lion industry until such a time that the industry can convince PHASA and the IUCN that the practice is beneficial to lion conservation.

I think before we arrive at conclusions and start making predictions we should stop and consider these words from the PHASA statement and look at the history of this issue. I say this as one who supports RSA lion hunting of raised lions even though I've never been on one and may never even if I can. The simple reason for that is that it does keep lion breeders in business and the conservation of the African lion may someday depend on these operations.

A bit of reflection on the history.....

1. There are members of our international hunting community that are opposed and some quite strongly so to raised lion hunting in RSA. I've read many of those arguments against over and over again and while I disagree with many, some seem valid to me. Regardless of what I think of their arguments, until they have been made to change their minds, it's a most difficult situation to fight for saving RSA lion hunting. I'm also certain that hurling insults and making unsubstantiated claims against our fellow hunters is not a strategy for success.

2. One of if not the leading cause of trouble for RSA lion hunting is how the term "canned" it seems is how this hunting is almost always referred to. At it's worst "canned" brings up images of a lion within a small enclosure with a shooter putting a bullet through or over the fence. It also includes whether we like it or not, the very real videos of "hunters" going after cats that have been recently released in proximity to the "hunt" still feeling the effects of sedation and completely unfamiliar with its surroundings. It wouldn't totally surprise me if there were AH'ers who unwittingly/unknowingly have been on such hunts. Do these unethical operators represent a majority, a significant minority or very insignificant minority of the RSA lion hunt operators? I don't know, but I really don't think it matters. The perception is unfortunately reality for many that it is the majority or at least a way too significant minority.

3. "Cecil" - DSC/SCI and whoever else were caught not being prepared for such a situation. I hope that those organizations have learned from it, but the fact is you can't undo what was done and we lost ground there in the court of world opinion.

4. Blood Lions - I haven't seen it, not even any clips so I can't speak to it, but I get the overall gist. Lion's being bred in less than ideal conditions, is it any different than the puppy mills here in the U.S.? I haven't had a hunting dog in years, but I assure you if I ever do again it won't come from such an operation.

So all that said, let's look at the opening that PHASA left if their statement. I remarked to Jacques shortly after the Cecil situation came out that PHASA needed to step in and find a way to promote the good of RSA lion hunting and rid itself of the bad. It seems from there statement that there is an opening at PHASA, but changes will be required. Can this in the end be a good thing? I think it's time to name and shame the unethical operators. It may also be time for better cooperation between the various African nations and team effort in lion conservation. If this action by PHASA is the catalyst to bring such positive changes about, then I say good for them.

In the end this event could be a sign of the end of lion hunting, but I hope not. I think the one thing to keep in mind, is the U.S. nor any other country not in Africa can tell you if you can hunt or not. Only the African nations can do that. Elephant hunting has not been banned in Zimbabwe or Tanzania, you just can't bring any parts back to the U.S. Now I have the luxury of having some taxidermy from Africa with more in the making. But if I had the time and money to go to Zim for an ele hunt, I'd go and screw the U.S. gov't. You're not going to stop me from going hunting, I'll have replicas made if that's what it comes down to or just be satisfied with pictures. Taxidermy just serves as a reminder of the hunts I've been on and I'm glad to have it, but at this point if all I could bring back were digital images then so be it. Would I go lion hunting under the same circumstances? Yes I would. Would I be disappointed if I couldn't have the pleasure of a lion mount in my home, yes I would but it's not going to stop me from enjoying the experience.

So I say lets stay positive that this is a turning point which will make things better and not worse and don't let the gov't stop you from being the hunter/conservationist over taxidermy.

 

[billc]

For all you raised lions is not hunt folks make your comments to your friends and stop telling us all what hunting is. Pretty sure the lioness my son took was not coming to cuddle him after the shot but more like kill him if she would have made it that far.

For some reason of which I cant figure out all the big bad hunters who like to put down the ones who may hunt different then themselves are all full of themselves. They give the same speech it does nothing to help this or that it is just for the trophy and the greed of those who do that kind of hunt.
Well I have news for you. I did not have my son hunt his lioness out of greed or for him to brag or think he is better then anyone else. I did it so he could have the chance to hunt a lion notice I sent hunt. It was in the price range I could afford to give him that chance. Not everyone can go to tanz or zim but what the chance to hunt certain things.

The worst thing we can do as hunters is start treating certain animals different then others because in our mind they mean more to us. The antis look at all animals the same and pick the fights based on which ones we fight about. They dont like the killing of anything other then other humans who hunt they are all for that.

So just keep living the dream that if we give in on this they will go away and leave hunting alone. They antis dont care to hear with out hunting the lions will suffer and be poached. They dont care if hunting helps they hate hunting period.

For all the bs about we need to make the public understand. Well I have told maybe 2o people my son hunted a raised lion. All non hunters but not antis and not one had a problem. The 40 or 50 kids my son shared the story with at school had no problem either. But tell some of the hunters and they have a problem with it and that just seems a bit odd to me.

Just a new flash for some of you. The antis are the problem and for the must part the everyday person has no idea about hunting and could care less. The sad part is it takes about 100 anti hunter to do the damage that 1000's of hunters cant fix because were to busy telling other hunters how they should hunt and what hunting should be to them.

It is rather simple hunters fighting other hunters equals bad for us all. Hunter telling other hunters what a trophy is or what hunting is does no good either. Each hunter decide what hunting means to them and what they hope to get out of it.

 

[Royal27]

Not really "quickly". It took two years. Hopefully, they have a better "plan" in place now regarding sustainable use.

I'd call a government, and especially an African government, doing something in two years "quickly."

 

[Brent in Az]

For all you raised lions is not hunt folks make your comments to your friends and stop telling us all what hunting is. Pretty sure the lioness my son took was not coming to cuddle him after the shot but more like kill him if she would have made it that far.

For some reason of which I cant figure out all the big bad hunters who like to put down the ones who may hunt different then themselves are all full of themselves. They give the same speech it does nothing to help this or that it is just for the trophy and the greed of those who do that kind of hunt.
Well I have news for you. I did not have my son hunt his lioness out of greed or for him to brag or think he is better then anyone else. I did it so he could have the chance to hunt a lion notice I sent hunt. It was in the price range I could afford to give him that chance. Not everyone can go to tanz or zim but what the chance to hunt certain things.

The worst thing we can do as hunters is start treating certain animals different then others because in our mind they mean more to us. The antis look at all animals the same and pick the fights based on which ones we fight about. They dont like the killing of anything other then other humans who hunt they are all for that.

So just keep living the dream that if we give in on this they will go away and leave hunting alone. They antis dont care to hear with out hunting the lions will suffer and be poached. They dont care if hunting helps they hate hunting period.

For all the bs about we need to make the public understand. Well I have told maybe 2o people my son hunted a raised lion. All non hunters but not antis and not one had a problem. The 40 or 50 kids my son shared the story with at school had no problem either. But tell some of the hunters and they have a problem with it and that just seems a bit odd to me.

Just a new flash for some of you. The antis are the problem and for the must part the everyday person has no idea about hunting and could care less. The sad part is it takes about 100 anti hunter to do the damage that 1000's of hunters cant fix because were to busy telling other hunters how they should hunt and what hunting should be to them.

It is rather simple hunters fighting other hunters equals bad for us all. Hunter telling other hunters what a trophy is or what hunting is does no good either. Each hunter decide what hunting means to them and what they hope to get out of it.

Hunting Lion behind fences is not for everyone. To each his own. As a fellow hunter, I am not going to bash other hunters who choose to do so. I remember reading about your son's hunt, and the exciting experience he had facing a charging Lioness. I can say that most of us were happy for him, and what he accomplished during his adventure.
Regardless of our personal feelings on the different types of hunts, we as hunters are all on the same team facing an opponent who would love nothing more than to shut down our sport.

 

[BRICKBURN]

A motion has been passed that disassociates PHASA with the captive-bred lion industry until such a time that the industry can convince PHASA and the IUCN that the practice is beneficial to lion conservation.
..............

For the sake of argument.

Ultimately, this organization can have another meeting called under it's Constitution, call another vote and change it's position on any matter, including this one.

Also, the industry, as suggested in the statement, can go about spending some of those industry profits to benefit wild lion conservation directly and they thus provide proof that the industry benefits Wild Lion conservation.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I'd call a government, and especially an African government, doing something in two years "quickly."

It is on Africa time I guess.

 

[Royal27]

It is on Africa time I guess.

And remember for our wonderful US Healthcare system almost that long to get a website up and running. LOL

 

[Brent in Az]

And remember for our wonderful US Healthcare system almost that long to get a website up and running. LOL

And that website still sucks

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Therefore, the end of the African Lion is imminent:

LESSON:

Fact, we've been telling them that for years, they won't listen Wayne.

 

[Mekaniks]

Respectfully, this is the argument the antis make. Trophy hunters are killing them all (insert species). The truth is that hunting is a conservation effort which gives value to animals that would otherwise be destroyed by local inhabitants (for protein or out of fear) or by poaching. The only reason these dangerous carnivores exist in much of their range is because their trophy value exceeds the value of their depravations. End trophy hunting, and we will have signed the death warrant to all wild lion populations. The few remaining will all be Cecils performing for tourists in national parks. Fenced lion hunting does nothing to support that conservation effort. It simply provides a legal means for someone to kill a lion - I deliberately did not use the term "hunt".

Thanks Red Leg, but I think you might misunderstand my comments??? So I will try again... If the lion debacle continues in this direction, and it becomes illegal to raise lions for the purpose of "hunting, shooting, killing," whatever , then IN MY OPINION, which comes from just an average everyday hunter, gatherer, middle class worker trying to raise a family, and not a wildlife biologist/expert by any means, the African Lion species will go the way of the Bengal Tiger. We will look at them in zoos and magazine articles, never to be seen in the wild again.
Maybe I am missing something? If so, I really would appreciate constructive input so that I have a better understanding of the issues. It wouldn't be the first time I have been mistaken or even inadvertatly taken a wrong position....

 

[enysse]

I will say this about fenced lion hunting. I wish from the beginning other Ph's and outfitters had policed themselves better....maybe we would not be where we are now. Everyone could have made money and all the ethical BS we are dealing with now would be an after thought. I think there is so much misinformation out there, that the truth may never shine through. I have to agree with Bill their is certain elitist attitude out there about wild lion hunting vs fenced lion hunting. A lion ban is not a positive for wildlife conservation. I more than predict numbers will plummet further.

 

[BRICKBURN]

.............
Maybe I am missing something? If so, I really would appreciate constructive input so that I have a better understanding of the issues. .....

For constructive input from where I sit, I think are some assumptions being made regarding the association between "Wild" and "Ranch" Lions that do not exist.
They have one part of the name in common; Lion. Other than that, they are totally different products.
Demand is not linked between these two products. The customers/market are totally different folks within a larger subset; Hunters.

........... It was in the price range I could afford to give him that chance. Not everyone can go to tanz or zim .............

Obviously supply in places like Tanzania, Zambia, Zim, Moz, and West Africa etc. have pricing that addresses the demand side and keeps it well within conservation goals. (CITES Quota)
When you hit the 6 figure mark that tends to exclude the vast majority of the folks who are taking "Ranch Lions".

With the lower prices charged for Ranch Lions the product becomes accessible to more consumers.

The derogatory term "canned" focuses on the behaviour of the supplier providing a product that is absolutely 100% assured, not free roaming, not self sustaining and basically like shooting fish in a barrel. An shooting, not hunting.

The similar debate where "trophy" animals (Plains Game, Buffalo) are purchased at auction and then released in very small fenced "Camps" or even shot in the "Boma". There are consumers that remain woefully ill informed or willfully ignorant of these circumstances. In either case, those consumers will not be complaining about ethical issues.

If these Ranch Lions were actually in self sustaining environments who would complain?
Anti hunters would. I think "other" hunters would not.
However, Self sustaining Ranch Lions would be prohibitively expensive. (Apparently, Lions consume a lot of meat.) Review the entire court proceedings with the Predator breeders and the RSA government. Initially, proposed standards would impose increased costs on the industry. The industry sued. A negotiated set of standards was agreed to.

The ethical debate has been long and strong on the subject. Every consumer has a line they choose not to cross.
There are many hunters who refuse to hunt behind any type of fence. That is their line. Everyone had best resolve that issue for themselves before heading to Africa. "How big a property is big enough?"

PHASA is demanding, through this policy decision, that Ranch Lion Suppliers demonstrate that their business benefits Conservation or Lion conservation specifically.
That is PHASA's line.

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks Red Leg, but I think you might misunderstand my comments??? So I will try again... If the lion debacle continues in this direction, and it becomes illegal to raise lions for the purpose of "hunting, shooting, killing," whatever , then IN MY OPINION, which comes from just an average everyday hunter, gatherer, middle class worker trying to raise a family, and not a wildlife biologist/expert by any means, the African Lion species will go the way of the Bengal Tiger. We will look at them in zoos and magazine articles, never to be seen in the wild again.
Maybe I am missing something? If so, I really would appreciate constructive input so that I have a better understanding of the issues. It wouldn't be the first time I have been mistaken or even inadvertatly taken a wrong position....

I wasn't trying to be snarky - so let me give it another shot. And perhaps we are talking past each other. I am convinced that the only way any meaningful populations of wild lions will exist outside of parks is if they continue to have value as a trophy hunting species. If they don't, they will soon be eliminated by Africa's burgeoning rural population wherever they are found. And I am certain, shooting one behind a fence does nothing to alter that outcome in a positive way. It is not like there are fewer permits for wild lions because captive lion hunting is lessening demand. And if the public reaction to the practice actually makes it more likely that all lion hunting will be banned (which I believe it does), then shooting them behind a fence is actually counter-productive.

And I fully agree this is a very slippery ethical slope (as we have discussed ad nauseum on several other threads). I admit my own behavior illustrates this. For instance I enjoy tower shoots for pheasant. It is great sport - but it is not "hunting" pheasants. Some would argue it is an unethical use of a pen raised game bird. I resolve this in my own mind by putting pheasant in the same category as chickens. A flying chance beats industrial level food processing any day. Shooting a lion in a zoo - even a five thousand acre zoo - can be dangerous, probably exciting, but it isn't "hunting". It is killing a lion. And a captive lion isn't a chicken. He is a predatory animal that was raised by humans to be killed for sport. None are raised and released on properties to create breeding populations. No outfitter could afford the losses to his plains game species. I just do not see that as a defensible practice. It is particularly hard to defend if we use conservation as the foundation upon which we build our argument for sport hunting. As I read the PHASA position, that seems to be the justification they are looking for from the captive lion breeders. Hard one to come up with.

 

[Mekaniks]

I wasn't trying to be snarky - so let me give it another shot. And perhaps we are talking past each other. I am convinced that the only way any meaningful populations of wild lions will exist outside of parks is if they continue to have value as a trophy hunting species. If they don't, they will soon be eliminated by Africa's burgeoning rural population wherever they are found. And I am certain, shooting one behind a fence does nothing to alter that outcome in a positive way. It is not like there are fewer permits for wild lions because captive lion hunting is lessening demand. And if the public reaction to the practice actually makes it more likely that all lion hunting will be banned (which I believe it does), then shooting them behind a fence is actually counter-productive.

And I fully agree this is a very slippery ethical slope (as we have discussed ad nauseum on several other threads). I admit my own behavior illustrates this. For instance I enjoy tower shoots for pheasant. It is great sport - but it is not "hunting" pheasants. Some would argue it is an unethical use of a pen raised game bird. I resolve this in my own mind by putting pheasant in the same category as chickens. A flying chance beats industrial level food processing any day. Shooting a lion in a zoo - even a five thousand acre zoo - can be dangerous, probably exciting, but it isn't "hunting". It is killing a lion. And a captive lion isn't a chicken. He is a predatory animal that was raised by humans to be killed for sport. None are raised and released on properties to create breeding populations. No outfitter could afford the losses to his plains game species. I just do not see that as a defensible practice. It is particularly hard to defend if we use conservation as the foundation upon which we build our argument for sport hunting. As I read the PHASA position, that seems to be the justification they are looking for from the captive lion breeders. Hard one to come up with.

I understand. Thank You. I don't necessarily agree with you 100% but that's ok. If we all agreed 100% all the time we would be in deep s**t. Diffrent ideas and opinions is what keeps us moving forward.

 

[Mekaniks]

For constructive input from where I sit, I think are some assumptions being made regarding the association between "Wild" and "Ranch" Lions that do not exist.
They have one part of the name in common; Lion. Other than that, they are totally different products.
Demand is not linked between these two products. The customers/market are totally different folks within a larger subset; Hunters.

Brick are you saying that "Ranched lion" hunts are not helping to relieve pressure on "wild lion" hunts?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

A motion has been passed that disassociates PHASA with the captive-bred lion industry until such a time that the industry can convince PHASA and the IUCN that the practice is beneficial to lion conservation.

I think before we arrive at conclusions and start making predictions we should stop and consider these words from the PHASA statement and look at the history of this issue. I say this as one who supports RSA lion hunting of raised lions even though I've never been on one and may never even if I can. The simple reason for that is that it does keep lion breeders in business and the conservation of the African lion may someday depend on these operations.

A bit of reflection on the history.....

1. There are members of our international hunting community that are opposed and some quite strongly so to raised lion hunting in RSA. I've read many of those arguments against over and over again and while I disagree with many, some seem valid to me. Regardless of what I think of their arguments, until they have been made to change their minds, it's a most difficult situation to fight for saving RSA lion hunting. I'm also certain that hurling insults and making unsubstantiated claims against our fellow hunters is not a strategy for success.

2. One of if not the leading cause of trouble for RSA lion hunting is how the term "canned" it seems is how this hunting is almost always referred to. At it's worst "canned" brings up images of a lion within a small enclosure with a shooter putting a bullet through or over the fence. It also includes whether we like it or not, the very real videos of "hunters" going after cats that have been recently released in proximity to the "hunt" still feeling the effects of sedation and completely unfamiliar with its surroundings. It wouldn't totally surprise me if there were AH'ers who unwittingly/unknowingly have been on such hunts. Do these unethical operators represent a majority, a significant minority or very insignificant minority of the RSA lion hunt operators? I don't know, but I really don't think it matters. The perception is unfortunately reality for many that it is the majority or at least a way too significant minority.

3. "Cecil" - DSC/SCI and whoever else were caught not being prepared for such a situation. I hope that those organizations have learned from it, but the fact is you can't undo what was done and we lost ground there in the court of world opinion.

4. Blood Lions - I haven't seen it, not even any clips so I can't speak to it, but I get the overall gist. Lion's being bred in less than ideal conditions, is it any different than the puppy mills here in the U.S.? I haven't had a hunting dog in years, but I assure you if I ever do again it won't come from such an operation.

So all that said, let's look at the opening that PHASA left if their statement. I remarked to Jacques shortly after the Cecil situation came out that PHASA needed to step in and find a way to promote the good of RSA lion hunting and rid itself of the bad. It seems from there statement that there is an opening at PHASA, but changes will be required. Can this in the end be a good thing? I think it's time to name and shame the unethical operators. It may also be time for better cooperation between the various African nations and team effort in lion conservation. If this action by PHASA is the catalyst to bring such positive changes about, then I say good for them.

In the end this event could be a sign of the end of lion hunting, but I hope not. I think the one thing to keep in mind, is the U.S. nor any other country not in Africa can tell you if you can hunt or not. Only the African nations can do that. Elephant hunting has not been banned in Zimbabwe or Tanzania, you just can't bring any parts back to the U.S. Now I have the luxury of having some taxidermy from Africa with more in the making. But if I had the time and money to go to Zim for an ele hunt, I'd go and screw the U.S. gov't. You're not going to stop me from going hunting, I'll have replicas made if that's what it comes down to or just be satisfied with pictures. Taxidermy just serves as a reminder of the hunts I've been on and I'm glad to have it, but at this point if all I could bring back were digital images then so be it. Would I go lion hunting under the same circumstances? Yes I would. Would I be disappointed if I couldn't have the pleasure of a lion mount in my home, yes I would but it's not going to stop me from enjoying the experience.

So I say lets stay positive that this is a turning point which will make things better and not worse and don't let the gov't stop you from being the hunter/conservationist over taxidermy.

Well said. + 1000 Dr. Phil.