thats why I dont like doubles (have one)

[Wahoo]

As a coincidence my wife was practicing this morning.

I give her something out the front window to aim at. She has to quickly find it, aim. Dry fire and cycle the bolt using dummy loads.

Since it’s so fast to set up and do your more likely to do it more often


View attachment 590627

Way better theft deterrent than those “adt” alarm co signs stuck in the front yard too

 

[Ontario Hunter]

As a coincidence my wife was practicing this morning.

I give her something out the front window to aim at. She has to quickly find it, aim. Dry fire and cycle the bolt using dummy loads.

Since it’s so fast to set up and do your more likely to do it more often


View attachment 590627

Load up four cartridges without primer or powder

 

[VertigoBE]

For every live shot I take at the range there are about 10 to 20 dry fire shots taken in my living room. See the target, mount the rifle, find it in the scope, disengage the safety, settle your breathing/heart rate, slowly squeeze the trigger and follow through. Reload for a follow up shot and do it again. I tend to shoot in pairs planning for a follow-up shot.

Do this enough times and your brain will start to figure out the little things to make it feel nearly automatic. Then your weekend live range session becomes more of a verification of the practice you've put in during the week. Talk about saving money on ammo.

Those are rookie numbers !!!!

I think I "shoot" about 100 dry fire shots with snap caps at home for every .22 LR shot I take. And more than 100 .22 LR shots for every big bore shot.

And for the moment I'm around 4 big bore shot's at the range for each big bore round "shot in anger".

 

[Altitude sickness]

Ontario, Yes we have dummy rounds she uses.

Wahoo, I do also have security signs, cameras on every outbuilding, the driveway, 360 on the house, and alarms. And yes the occasional barrel pointing out the window

I live 5 miles from a village with no traffic light. So protection is on me. Not the police.

 

[HankBuck]

I'm sure it's an SCI thing. They have a slew of different "achievement" awards for various categories of trophy collecting.

Ontario: I’m familiar with SCI and think they are a good organization but believe their awards - you have to “buy them yourself”. So I’m not sure that qualifies someone as an “Award winning Hunter”? If it does, I’m also “Award winning” but I never wanted to ”pay” for my own awards and therefore have No SCI Gold, Silver, or Bronze metals next to any of my trophies. Now, If I ever shoot an animal that qualifies for B&C - you can be sure I’ll be accepting anything they give me and letting EVERYONE know about it !!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario: I’m familiar with SCI and think they are a good organization but believe their awards - you have to “buy them yourself”. So I’m not sure that qualifies someone as an “Award winning Hunter”? If it does, I’m also “Award winning” but I never wanted to ”pay” for my own awards and therefore have No SCI Gold, Silver, or Bronze metals next to any of my trophies. Now, If I ever shoot an animal that qualifies for B&C - you can be sure I’ll be accepting anything they give me and letting EVERYONE know about it !!

My first elk missed B&C by 4 points (356+). By comparison, it is way over the bar for gold medal SCI. I am an official SCI measurerer for the taxidermy business. I'm entitled to three free entries and need to send off paperwork for black wildebeest (gold), blesbuck (silver), and Cape buffalo (bronze) so I have samples of awards to show clients. The plaques and medals are kinda cheesey. I might pull the medals off and make my own plaques. Just finished up euro moose last week that was easy gold medal. It was the 15 year-old kid's first trophy. I should have measured it for him. Dad had the $$$ to pay for an entry. Daughter quoted him $1K to do the work and he never batted an eye. We don't want to do euro for moose and try to price them so high clients will take cap mounts instead. Moose euros are a huge pain in the arse. Curious thing is the fella is Native and driving a fancy big new truck. Given their residence, I presume he's working at the mine. Big money but dangerous work. Nice folks.

 

[Franco]

Since recovering from shoulder surgery has left me few options, I figure I would pose a question regarding what I think is missing from this discussion. I could be wrong - and readily accept that possibility.

The discussion is about doubles, and there seems to be a strong argument for the use of bolt guns because they offer more ammo. For the record - I'm a double rifle guy.

In the scenario, we have a wounded cape buffalo charging from a relatively short distance.

Would it be realistic to assume the buffalo was at 30 mph, or 25 mph to be conservative?

30 mph is around 40 feet per second, 35 is 50', and 25 is about 35'.

How far away was the buffalo when the PH picked up on the charge?

If it was 30 yds, 25 mph would give less than 3 seconds before being run over, to acquire the target, find your point of aim, and shoot.

Admittedly, I do not have the experience of most of you, but I don't see how a bolt gun would get off any more shots than a double - especially trying to acquire the target through a scope.

Granted, in the video scenario - the PH would have been able to continue shooting once the buffalo passed without reloading had he been equipped with a bolt gun - assuming the magazine was full.

What I perceive as missing in the discussion is consistency. The scenario has been dissected with the segments treated as isolated incidents, and in some cases - a bias applied, and certain variables not taken into account.

I chose not to involve the first shot because bolt or double had nothing to do with it.

Using the charge as an example, a kill shot would have rendered the ensuing discussion moot.

When buffalo failed to die, and the PH has to reload - the argument is pro bolt gun.

When the client's bolt gun jambs - it's back to pro double.

It reminds me of an Italian saying which roughly translates: "If my grandmother had two wheels she would have been a bicycle".

I can only speak from my limited experience: We had an elephant emerge from the trees at about 30', drop his head and charge - I got 1 shot off from my open sight double, hit him with a frontal brain shot, and he dropped - 21' away. I do not honestly think I could have done that with my scoped 375. In either case - there would not have been time for more than 2 shots.

In fairness, my last encounter with elephants was a "shit-show" in comparison. In the previous event, the elephant was in the open, head down, basically lined up straight at my rifle. I waited until all I saw was grey (and I didn't have to wait long), and pulled the trigger.

The second example was very different - trees and brush partially obscured his head and he was thrashing his head from side to side as he advanced. My first shot hit just off center of a frontal brain - it slowed him down but didn't stop him. Now it's all about what to do with a pissed off elephant. I got another round in him, the PH started shooting, I managed a reload, and we stopped him.

The point to my second example is; would a bolt gun have made a difference? Maybe.

I don't think I could have acquired the target any better with my scoped 375 than with the double, but - my 458 with a red dot might have been a better choice.

I'm going back to something I said earlier - if the first shot would have stopped him, the rest of the discussion would be moot.

On a recent hunt, a dinner discussion turned to bolt vs double, and there were clients and PHs on either side. One PH made a point of being able to get off 4 shots with his bolt rifle. I posed the same question then I am raising now: How far out are you shooting to get 4 shots at an animal advancing at 30' feet per second?

If what I'm about to say alienates or offends anyone - well, I already said I could be wrong, and I'm merely making an observation based on that evening's discussion.

The bolt rifle PH seemed to make his case for more ammo is better - no argument.

The double rifle PH's argument was the standard, 2 shots faster than with a bolt.

My take was one guy is equipping himself in the event of a miss or non-lethal shot while the other is counting on 2 to do the job.

Here's where the discussion got interesting; The PH in favor of the bolt rifle added, "And, I can't afford one of those high priced doubles".

So I asked, if I were to give him my Heym double would he use it in favor of his 416 bolt rifle. There was no hesitation in his response.

Which leads me to ask, how many bolt gun advocates just don't want to spend the money for a double? Or, simply believe any benefits aren't worth the price?

Any pure survey or discussion would have to include those questions.

I can't see myself firing 3 shots from a bolt rifle in a scenario where I'd maybe have time for 2 from a double.

Personally, I think the, "I've missed - now what" scenario is what we train for and each of us has our own level of comfort and with that a level of acceptance of the possibility. If we didn't - we shouldn't be hunting Dangerous Game.

Well, hopefully I haven't pissed too many of you off, or bored you to death with the length of this post - but the Dr said typing would be good therapy to keep my hands moving during shoulder recovery. I can only imagine what some of you might suggest I do with my hands - I await your responses.

 

[VertigoBE]

Since recovering from shoulder surgery has left me few options, I figure I would pose a question regarding what I think is missing from this discussion. I could be wrong - and readily accept that possibility.

The discussion is about doubles, and there seems to be a strong argument for the use of bolt guns because they offer more ammo. For the record - I'm a double rifle guy.

In the scenario, we have a wounded cape buffalo charging from a relatively short distance.

Would it be realistic to assume the buffalo was at 30 mph, or 25 mph to be conservative?

30 mph is around 40 feet per second, 35 is 50', and 25 is about 35'.

How far away was the buffalo when the PH picked up on the charge?

If it was 30 yds, 25 mph would give less than 3 seconds before being run over, to acquire the target, find your point of aim, and shoot.

Admittedly, I do not have the experience of most of you, but I don't see how a bolt gun would get off any more shots than a double - especially trying to acquire the target through a scope.

Granted, in the video scenario - the PH would have been able to continue shooting once the buffalo passed without reloading had he been equipped with a bolt gun - assuming the magazine was full.

What I perceive as missing in the discussion is consistency. The scenario has been dissected with the segments treated as isolated incidents, and in some cases - a bias applied, and certain variables not taken into account.

I chose not to involve the first shot because bolt or double had nothing to do with it.

Using the charge as an example, a kill shot would have rendered the ensuing discussion moot.

When buffalo failed to die, and the PH has to reload - the argument is pro bolt gun.

When the client's bolt gun jambs - it's back to pro double.

It reminds me of an Italian saying which roughly translates: "If my grandmother had two wheels she would have been a bicycle".

I can only speak from my limited experience: We had an elephant emerge from the trees at about 30', drop his head and charge - I got 1 shot off from my open sight double, hit him with a frontal brain shot, and he dropped - 21' away. I do not honestly think I could have done that with my scoped 375. In either case - there would not have been time for more than 2 shots.

In fairness, my last encounter with elephants was a "shit-show" in comparison. In the previous event, the elephant was in the open, head down, basically lined up straight at my rifle. I waited until all I saw was grey (and I didn't have to wait long), and pulled the trigger.

The second example was very different - trees and brush partially obscured his head and he was thrashing his head from side to side as he advanced. My first shot hit just off center of a frontal brain - it slowed him down but didn't stop him. Now it's all about what to do with a pissed off elephant. I got another round in him, the PH started shooting, I managed a reload, and we stopped him.

The point to my second example is; would a bolt gun have made a difference? Maybe.

I don't think I could have acquired the target any better with my scoped 375 than with the double, but - my 458 with a red dot might have been a better choice.

I'm going back to something I said earlier - if the first shot would have stopped him, the rest of the discussion would be moot.

On a recent hunt, a dinner discussion turned to bolt vs double, and there were clients and PHs on either side. One PH made a point of being able to get off 4 shots with his bolt rifle. I posed the same question then I am raising now: How far out are you shooting to get 4 shots at an animal advancing at 30' feet per second?

If what I'm about to say alienates or offends anyone - well, I already said I could be wrong, and I'm merely making an observation based on that evening's discussion.

The bolt rifle PH seemed to make his case for more ammo is better - no argument.

The double rifle PH's argument was the standard, 2 shots faster than with a bolt.

My take was one guy is equipping himself in the event of a miss or non-lethal shot while the other is counting on 2 to do the job.

Here's where the discussion got interesting; The PH in favor of the bolt rifle added, "And, I can't afford one of those high priced doubles".

So I asked, if I were to give him my Heym double would he use it in favor of his 416 bolt rifle. There was no hesitation in his response.

Which leads me to ask, how many bolt gun advocates just don't want to spend the money for a double? Or, simply believe any benefits aren't worth the price?

Any pure survey or discussion would have to include those questions.

I can't see myself firing 3 shots from a bolt rifle in a scenario where I'd maybe have time for 2 from a double.

Personally, I think the, "I've missed - now what" scenario is what we train for and each of us has our own level of comfort and with that a level of acceptance of the possibility. If we didn't - we shouldn't be hunting Dangerous Game.

Well, hopefully I haven't pissed too many of you off, or bored you to death with the length of this post - but the Dr said typing would be good therapy to keep my hands moving during shoulder recovery. I can only imagine what some of you might suggest I do with my hands - I await your responses.

excellent. Thanks for writing this out and good luck with the recovery of your shoulder!

 

[Franco]

excellent. Thanks for writing this out and good luck with the recovery of your shoulder!

Thank you

 

[IvW]

Not sure where you were hunting elephant. Where both these elephant the target ones you where hunting or just elephant that decided to charge?

 

[hoytcanon]

Since recovering from shoulder surgery has left me few options, I figure I would pose a question regarding what I think is missing from this discussion. I could be wrong - and readily accept that possibility.

The discussion is about doubles, and there seems to be a strong argument for the use of bolt guns because they offer more ammo. For the record - I'm a double rifle guy.

In the scenario, we have a wounded cape buffalo charging from a relatively short distance.

Would it be realistic to assume the buffalo was at 30 mph, or 25 mph to be conservative?

30 mph is around 40 feet per second, 35 is 50', and 25 is about 35'.

How far away was the buffalo when the PH picked up on the charge?

If it was 30 yds, 25 mph would give less than 3 seconds before being run over, to acquire the target, find your point of aim, and shoot.

Admittedly, I do not have the experience of most of you, but I don't see how a bolt gun would get off any more shots than a double - especially trying to acquire the target through a scope.

Granted, in the video scenario - the PH would have been able to continue shooting once the buffalo passed without reloading had he been equipped with a bolt gun - assuming the magazine was full.

What I perceive as missing in the discussion is consistency. The scenario has been dissected with the segments treated as isolated incidents, and in some cases - a bias applied, and certain variables not taken into account.

I chose not to involve the first shot because bolt or double had nothing to do with it.

Using the charge as an example, a kill shot would have rendered the ensuing discussion moot.

When buffalo failed to die, and the PH has to reload - the argument is pro bolt gun.

When the client's bolt gun jambs - it's back to pro double.

It reminds me of an Italian saying which roughly translates: "If my grandmother had two wheels she would have been a bicycle".

I can only speak from my limited experience: We had an elephant emerge from the trees at about 30', drop his head and charge - I got 1 shot off from my open sight double, hit him with a frontal brain shot, and he dropped - 21' away. I do not honestly think I could have done that with my scoped 375. In either case - there would not have been time for more than 2 shots.

In fairness, my last encounter with elephants was a "shit-show" in comparison. In the previous event, the elephant was in the open, head down, basically lined up straight at my rifle. I waited until all I saw was grey (and I didn't have to wait long), and pulled the trigger.

The second example was very different - trees and brush partially obscured his head and he was thrashing his head from side to side as he advanced. My first shot hit just off center of a frontal brain - it slowed him down but didn't stop him. Now it's all about what to do with a pissed off elephant. I got another round in him, the PH started shooting, I managed a reload, and we stopped him.

The point to my second example is; would a bolt gun have made a difference? Maybe.

I don't think I could have acquired the target any better with my scoped 375 than with the double, but - my 458 with a red dot might have been a better choice.

I'm going back to something I said earlier - if the first shot would have stopped him, the rest of the discussion would be moot.

On a recent hunt, a dinner discussion turned to bolt vs double, and there were clients and PHs on either side. One PH made a point of being able to get off 4 shots with his bolt rifle. I posed the same question then I am raising now: How far out are you shooting to get 4 shots at an animal advancing at 30' feet per second?

If what I'm about to say alienates or offends anyone - well, I already said I could be wrong, and I'm merely making an observation based on that evening's discussion.

The bolt rifle PH seemed to make his case for more ammo is better - no argument.

The double rifle PH's argument was the standard, 2 shots faster than with a bolt.

My take was one guy is equipping himself in the event of a miss or non-lethal shot while the other is counting on 2 to do the job.

Here's where the discussion got interesting; The PH in favor of the bolt rifle added, "And, I can't afford one of those high priced doubles".

So I asked, if I were to give him my Heym double would he use it in favor of his 416 bolt rifle. There was no hesitation in his response.

Which leads me to ask, how many bolt gun advocates just don't want to spend the money for a double? Or, simply believe any benefits aren't worth the price?

Any pure survey or discussion would have to include those questions.

I can't see myself firing 3 shots from a bolt rifle in a scenario where I'd maybe have time for 2 from a double.

Personally, I think the, "I've missed - now what" scenario is what we train for and each of us has our own level of comfort and with that a level of acceptance of the possibility. If we didn't - we shouldn't be hunting Dangerous Game.

Well, hopefully I haven't pissed too many of you off, or bored you to death with the length of this post - but the Dr said typing would be good therapy to keep my hands moving during shoulder recovery. I can only imagine what some of you might suggest I do with my hands - I await your responses.

I don't disagree with much of anything in your post, nor in the questions you posed... I highly doubt, however, that you will get many of the "Bolt Camp" to concede that they are either too cheap, or simply not in a financial position to purchase a quality double rifle... just like you can't get the "Light Cartridge" crowd to admit they are "recoil-shy." To my mind and in my own circumstance the cost definitely does enter the equation... but familiarity also, and the actual percentage of the time I spend hunting dangerous game versus standard game species. If my life depended on it, and it has in a couple of occasions, I would bet on two fast shots from a double over the bolt action.... however one thing you posted repeatedly above regarding using a bolt action was finding the target "in the scope," you know you can remove the scope from a bolt rifle too, right? QD scope mounts on a bolt gun are a good option if you choose that route... good iron sights have to be properly installed and designed, particularly if you are shooting with a higher comb on the stock. Ruger stock design on their M77 rifles lend themselves well to a crossover set-up utilizing low mounted scopes AND iron sights... one of the reason thatbI love my Rugers.

 

[Franco]

Not sure where you were hunting elephant. Where both these elephant the target ones you where hunting or just elephant that decided to charge?

The first was one of two bulls feeding in heavy vegetation on an "island" in the Caprivi. This was a Community animal and we had been made aware of their presence by the locals. They took us to the island in a couple makoros (native term for piece of wood that barely floats) and led us right up to them - unfortunately, all we could see was two big elephant butts. The vegetation was really thick and there was a line of trees between them and us with not much room to the water's edge.

We were downwind and they were making a tremendous amount of noise feeding. The PH suggested we move around to the side to get a better look and possibly an opportunity for a side brain shot.

As we passed abeam them, concealed by the trees and vegetation, for whatever reason - the one closest to us swung 90 degrees and passed deep enough into the trees to either smell, hear, or see us - and next I knew, this big elephant head appeared to float out of the trees with his trunk up sniffing and his ears out. The grass was about 6' high so all I could see was head.

As if in slow motion, I could see the tip of his trunk turn towards me, his right eye focus on me, and I knew what he was thinking - I could see his eyelashes.

What happened next was one motion. I brought my rifle up, the elephant's ears snapped back - so hard I could hear the slap, his head lowered, and he lunged forward. I heard the PH say, "Take him" as I squeezed the trigger. As I watched him drop I saw the other bull emerge from the trees - the PH was on him so I stayed with the first one. I put a second shot into the heart.

The second one was in Zim. The trackers had been on a group of 5 bulls for several hours, and when the bulls stopped to feed, they came and got us. The wind had been rather unsteady for a few days - we got close to several bulls in the days prior, but they winded us and fled.

Because of that, we took our time and passed well around them to close in from in front of them - mostly. They were in a heavy stand of trees and thick brush - feeding in different directions.

We could tell there was one bull taller than the rest but couldn't see any of their tusks. The trackers knew there was one really old bull - but again, it was difficult to pick him out.

The thick brush made it as tough to move as it was to see, and the wind swirling around didn't help.

The PH and I were separated by about 20 yds, he had advanced off to my right to get a better look.

When he determined the tall one was the old bull we were after, he motioned me to find a clear shot and take it.

They were all heads down feeding with the big guy behind a stand of trees - in front of me.

The wind was steady and I eased cautiously through the brush to get to a position where I could get a shot.

It had to be the wind, next thing I know - his head came up, he smashed the tree, and started forward. I took my first shot which hit just off-center. He rocked his head back, turned slightly to his right and I hit him in the shoulder.

The PH fired on my second shot and again as the elephant spun around and continued forward - stunned.

The other elephants were advancing as well and fortunately went around us.

I have tracked elephants through brush so thick I had to crawl and yet, they leave absolutely no trace of having passed. Well that day was not the case. The wounded elephant was smashing everything in his way and the others were wasting no time clearing a path. Trees, brush, and elephants everywhere.

The PH shot again and the elephant stumbled to the ground, I got off another shot as it fell and followed up with a shot to the heart.

We had 8 charges on that hunt. Mostly from elephants on the road, but several just appearing seemingly out of nowhere in the brush. One - female, came at us from over 100 yds away. We got the vehicle turned around and the Game Scout fired over her head - she was maybe 20' as we pulled away.

 

[Franco]

I don't disagree with much of anything in your post, nor in the questions you posed... I highly doubt, however, that you will get many of the "Bolt Camp" to concede that they are either too cheap, or simply not in a financial position to purchase a quality double rifle... just like you can't get the "Light Cartridge" crowd to admit they are "recoil-shy." To my mind and in my own circumstance the cost definitely does enter the equation... but familiarity also, and the actual percentage of the time I spend hunting dangerous game versus standard game species. If my life depended on it, and it has in a couple of occasions, I would bet on two fast shots from a double over the bolt action.... however one thing you posted repeatedly above regarding using a bolt action was finding the target "in the scope," you know you can remove the scope from a bolt rifle too, right? QD scope mounts on a bolt gun are a good option if you choose that route... good iron sights have to be properly installed and designed, particularly if you are shooting with a higher comb on the stock. Ruger stock design on their M77 rifles lend themselves well to a crossover set-up utilizing low mounted scopes AND iron sights... one of the reason thatbI love my Rugers.

Thanks, and thanks for the info regarding a scope.

Yes, I have learned you can remove a scope - but that assumes you have time. Are you saying, "Today, I'd like to use my rifle open sights as opposed to the scope" - so you remove it in camp, or are you suggesting you wound a cape buffalo and as it charges - you take the scope off?

I typically bring 3 rifles on safari - a double, my 375 - scoped, and my 458 - red dot. If I'm hunting elephants, cape buffalo, etc, and/or I'm in heavy brush - I carry an open sight double.
If it's a longer shot - or brain - hippo, croc, I use the 375.

I always carry one of those 3 - the trackers carry the other 2.

 

[hoytcanon]

Thanks, and thanks for the info regarding a scope.

Yes, I have learned you can remove a scope - but that assumes you have time. Are you saying, "Today, I'd like to use my rifle open sights as opposed to the scope" - so you remove it in camp, or are you suggesting you wound a cape buffalo and as it charges - you take the scope off?

I typically bring 3 rifles on safari - a double, my 375 - scoped, and my 458 - red dot. If I'm hunting elephants, cape buffalo, etc, and/or I'm in heavy brush - I carry an open sight double.
If it's a longer shot - or brain - hippo, croc, I use the 375.

I always carry one of those 3 - the trackers carry the other 2.

Just saying, if you can choose to hunt with an open sighted double, you can also choose to hunt with an open sighted bolt action rifle. There are also QD mounts for either style that allow you to "hunt" scoped and then quickly remove the scope when following up on a wounded animal. So the scope, should not really enter the equation when deciding between double or bolt.

P.S - nice to have all three options along.

 

[Franco]

Just saying, if you can choose to hunt with an open sighted double, you can also choose to hunt with an open sighted bolt action rifle. There are also QD mounts for either style that allow you to "hunt" scoped and then quickly remove the scope when following up on a wounded animal. So the scope, should not really enter the equation when deciding between double or bolt.

P.S - nice to have all three options along.

I understand - thanks.

Please do take not offense, I appreciate your taking the time to educate me.

However, when it comes to firearms, tools, cigars, booze, and cars - I have made it a practice to find very little in the way of crossover functionality, much in the manner my wife ascribes to her shoes, purses, and other accessories.

We have both learned the answer to "Why do you need another (fill in the blank)? Is simply - "Because - they are not the same"

Through mutual agreement - the conversation ends there.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Since recovering from shoulder surgery has left me few options, I figure I would pose a question regarding what I think is missing from this discussion. I could be wrong - and readily accept that possibility.

The discussion is about doubles, and there seems to be a strong argument for the use of bolt guns because they offer more ammo. For the record - I'm a double rifle guy.

In the scenario, we have a wounded cape buffalo charging from a relatively short distance.

Would it be realistic to assume the buffalo was at 30 mph, or 25 mph to be conservative?

30 mph is around 40 feet per second, 35 is 50', and 25 is about 35'.

How far away was the buffalo when the PH picked up on the charge?

If it was 30 yds, 25 mph would give less than 3 seconds before being run over, to acquire the target, find your point of aim, and shoot.

Admittedly, I do not have the experience of most of you, but I don't see how a bolt gun would get off any more shots than a double - especially trying to acquire the target through a scope.

Granted, in the video scenario - the PH would have been able to continue shooting once the buffalo passed without reloading had he been equipped with a bolt gun - assuming the magazine was full.

What I perceive as missing in the discussion is consistency. The scenario has been dissected with the segments treated as isolated incidents, and in some cases - a bias applied, and certain variables not taken into account.

I chose not to involve the first shot because bolt or double had nothing to do with it.

Using the charge as an example, a kill shot would have rendered the ensuing discussion moot.

When buffalo failed to die, and the PH has to reload - the argument is pro bolt gun.

When the client's bolt gun jambs - it's back to pro double.

It reminds me of an Italian saying which roughly translates: "If my grandmother had two wheels she would have been a bicycle".

I can only speak from my limited experience: We had an elephant emerge from the trees at about 30', drop his head and charge - I got 1 shot off from my open sight double, hit him with a frontal brain shot, and he dropped - 21' away. I do not honestly think I could have done that with my scoped 375. In either case - there would not have been time for more than 2 shots.

In fairness, my last encounter with elephants was a "shit-show" in comparison. In the previous event, the elephant was in the open, head down, basically lined up straight at my rifle. I waited until all I saw was grey (and I didn't have to wait long), and pulled the trigger.

The second example was very different - trees and brush partially obscured his head and he was thrashing his head from side to side as he advanced. My first shot hit just off center of a frontal brain - it slowed him down but didn't stop him. Now it's all about what to do with a pissed off elephant. I got another round in him, the PH started shooting, I managed a reload, and we stopped him.

The point to my second example is; would a bolt gun have made a difference? Maybe.

I don't think I could have acquired the target any better with my scoped 375 than with the double, but - my 458 with a red dot might have been a better choice.

I'm going back to something I said earlier - if the first shot would have stopped him, the rest of the discussion would be moot.

On a recent hunt, a dinner discussion turned to bolt vs double, and there were clients and PHs on either side. One PH made a point of being able to get off 4 shots with his bolt rifle. I posed the same question then I am raising now: How far out are you shooting to get 4 shots at an animal advancing at 30' feet per second?

If what I'm about to say alienates or offends anyone - well, I already said I could be wrong, and I'm merely making an observation based on that evening's discussion.

The bolt rifle PH seemed to make his case for more ammo is better - no argument.

The double rifle PH's argument was the standard, 2 shots faster than with a bolt.

My take was one guy is equipping himself in the event of a miss or non-lethal shot while the other is counting on 2 to do the job.

Here's where the discussion got interesting; The PH in favor of the bolt rifle added, "And, I can't afford one of those high priced doubles".

So I asked, if I were to give him my Heym double would he use it in favor of his 416 bolt rifle. There was no hesitation in his response.

Which leads me to ask, how many bolt gun advocates just don't want to spend the money for a double? Or, simply believe any benefits aren't worth the price?

Any pure survey or discussion would have to include those questions.

I can't see myself firing 3 shots from a bolt rifle in a scenario where I'd maybe have time for 2 from a double.

Personally, I think the, "I've missed - now what" scenario is what we train for and each of us has our own level of comfort and with that a level of acceptance of the possibility. If we didn't - we shouldn't be hunting Dangerous Game.

Well, hopefully I haven't pissed too many of you off, or bored you to death with the length of this post - but the Dr said typing would be good therapy to keep my hands moving during shoulder recovery. I can only imagine what some of you might suggest I do with my hands - I await your responses.

It didn't seem to me that buffalo was running at full tilt. He seemed half in the bag by the time he came out of the brush. Also, rather undecided about who to attack which would seem to indicate operating in a fog from blood loss. Fortunately, for all I think.

Back in 2019 I put two shots into a "charging" gemsbuck very quickly with my Springfield 03A3. Not sure if it intended harm or we were just in its way. Very close action. Both shots were twenty yards and less and both through the heart. And that animal was definitely running full tilt. I realize that an incoming gemsbuck is a bit different than a charging elephant. And I'm probably a bit different than the average hunter. Maybe more than a bit. So the best purpose firearm varies with the individual and the circumstances. However, I do believe it's possible to overthink variability. There is some validity to the old adage "beware the man who shoots one gun ... he usually shoots it very well." I rented a rifle to take my first two Cape buffalo. If my outfitter had offered me a double rifle, I would have refused it. Admittedly, I had never shot a CZ 375 before but one round at the range and I knew it was close enough to the Springfield rifle I'd been hunting with for more than a half century. No worries.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I understand - thanks.

Please do take not offense, I appreciate your taking the time to educate me.

However, when it comes to firearms, tools, cigars, booze, and cars - I have made it a practice to find very little in the way of crossover functionality, much in the manner my wife ascribes to her shoes, purses, and other accessories.

We have both learned the answer to "Why do you need another (fill in the blank)? Is simply - "Because - they are not the same"

Through mutual agreement - the conversation ends there.

I like the way this discussion has taken a turn to functionality. I own both doubles and bolts and see the benefits of both based on circumstances.

I agree that a double give you quicker shots over a bolt and in the scenario you gave would be the better choice. The only caveat to this is I believe that I could get 3 shots off with my Blaser R8 in the time described and the elephant closing in.

No way to know for sure and I wouldn’t want to try it!

I have faced down Cape Buffalo that were charging on 2 occasions (with a double) and a lion charge with a bolt.
The first cape took 11 shots total between me and my PH with 7 shots in the vitals and 2 near misses in the head area with the rest in various other body parts. Complete shit-show…as the buffalo would not die.
The second cape was brain shot on the charge and done.

The lion took 2 shots both in the chest and an additional finishing shot and done.

Charges are never fun but if you hunt long enough you’ll be involved in one. My hope is that whatever you’re using it does the job.

Happy Hunting

HH

 

[BeeMaa]

Those are rookie numbers !!!!

I think I "shoot" about 100 dry fire shots with snap caps at home for every .22 LR shot I take. And more than 100 .22 LR shots for every big bore shot.

And for the moment I'm around 4 big bore shot's at the range for each big bore round "shot in anger".

Reps are the key and it looks like you are getting them in. I'll do my best to up my game to your level.

For now I'm off to the clays range for more "bird training" with another AH member. Cheers.

 

[HankBuck]

I like the way this discussion has taken a turn to functionality. I own both doubles and bolts and see the benefits of both based on circumstances.

I agree that a double give you quicker shots over a bolt and in the scenario you gave would be the better choice. The only caveat to this is I believe that I could get 3 shots off with my Blaser R8 in the time described and the elephant closing in.

No way to know for sure and I wouldn’t want to try it!

I have faced down Cape Buffalo that were charging on 2 occasions (with a double) and a lion charge with a bolt.
The first cape took 11 shots total between me and my PH with 7 shots in the vitals and 2 near misses in the head area with the rest in various other body parts. Complete shit-show…as the buffalo would not die.
The second cape was brain shot on the charge and done.

The lion took 2 shots both in the chest and an additional finishing shot and done.

Charges are never fun but if you hunt long enough you’ll be involved in one. My hope is that whatever you’re using it does the job.

Happy Hunting

HH

I have only experienced one “Charge” and it was last weekend. Hunting with 3 friends and armed with only shotguns a rabbit (cottontail) was kicked up and ran directly at me, I was unable to shoot because another hunter was in the line-of-fire, had to let the rabbit pass within 5 feet (talk about fear?) I was so “rattled” that I missed the easy close/crossing shot, but hit it on my 2nd and the 16ga load of 7 1/2s killed it cleanly. It was HUGE - by cottontail standards and we estimated it’s weight at 2 pounds….None of the other hunters had ever seen an encounter like that. It proved (to Me) that I can handle myself in Life & death CHARGE situations and I feel ready for Elephant NOW

 

[BeeMaa]

I have only experienced one “Charge” and it was last weekend. Hunting with 3 friends and armed with only shotguns a rabbit (cottontail) was kicked up and ran directly at me, I was unable to shoot because another hunter was in the line-of-fire, had to let the rabbit pass within 5 feet (talk about fear?) I was so “rattled” that I missed the easy close/crossing shot, but hit it on my 2nd and the 16ga load of 7 1/2s killed it cleanly. It was HUGE - by cottontail standards and we estimated it’s weight at 2 pounds….None of the other hunters had ever seen an encounter like that. It proved (to Me) that I can handle myself in Life & death CHARGE situations and I feel ready for Elephant NOW

Good thing it didn't have fangs...