Sticky situation with outfitter - advice appreciated

[Scott CWO]

I really hope you can get it sorted with him and make the trip. Having been to Africa several times and being in the hunting industry myself, although in the USA, I have a few suggestions.

First off, you both seem to be honest gentlemen and I don’t suspect any ethical issues are at play and that’s important to keep in mind. Sometimes things happen that nobody can control. Seems your smaller operator simply doesn’t control his own destiny when it comes to prices the neighboring landowners charge. That’s not his fault. Hopefully, you can work something out with you both eating part of the increase. That would seem to be fair because I am guessing that if you cancel this close to the trip, you will not receive a full refund. If you can get a full refund, great, but I am guessing not. Even if you get a full refund, perhaps you have already booked airfare? Nonrefundable airfare? That’s another reason to work it out.

Secondly, perhaps some rethinking on your part should be done about booking with only small operators? While a “mom & pop” small operation can be a good way to go, there can be downsides to any size of operation. Seems your outfitter doesn’t control, lease or own enough property to accomplish the goals of your hunt on his own. Smaller is not always better. In the future, I might suggest finding an operator with a large property that he owns or leases. A small operator also may not have the capital available to adjust to a problem or sudden financial issue. Sometimes, bigger can be better, or at least medium can be better? For example, here in Colorado in 2020, our operation ran up against the largest wildfire in state history. The fire was in the core of one of our three elk areas. The government shut down all access. Even though our contracts give us an “out” for acts of God or governmental action, we took a huge financial hit and just refunded or rolled everyone to the next year and everyone booked for 2021 had to roll to 2022 and so on. Anyway you slice it, this cost us one full year of profit from that part of our operation. Unforeseen things like this would probably sink a small operator. Luckily, we have a diversified operation and although we didn’t make a profit in 2020 or much of a profit in 2021, we survived due to having other hunts to offer in other areas. The trick is to find a medium-sized or larger operation that offers attention to detail. Good luck to you. I hope you can work it out and enjoy the hunt without ill feelings.

 

[revturbo9967]

One thing to remember is inflation is crushing Africa just as much as here in the US. Small outfits will feel this the most and almost guaranteed to raises prices to combat their costs, where a larger outfit may be able to absorb some of it in the short term. Good luck with your situation.

 

[Ryan]

On the recovery after a 2 mile hike, don't forget that he'll have at least one tracker and that springbok are not that large of a animal. Some quick work with a knife and it will just be a piece of luggage

Actually the animal is a sable, a wee bit larger. And the walk is two hours, not miles, each way. My (and I suspect @WABs) point is if it's the outfitters own land and he can recover it, he can drive closer than a two hour walk to the area. It's suspicious, that's all.

 

[YancyW]

You are going to have to find a solution with the outfitter, you have no legal recourse here. The cost to even begin that process will be FAR more than the amount of money you are talking about. Plus, I can't imagine any scenario where the contract doesn't allow price increases, I've never seen one that did not.

 

[Charles de Ribeau]

Have you already paid him so or all of the contract price? If not, then you are in control. If you have, then things are much "stickier".

Does your contract have a provision for you to be able to cancel?

 

[spike.t]

I am intrigued to know the price of the sable in the beginning.....

 

[Ridge Runner]

What is your original primary animal? PG or DG?

Your original primary animal sounds expensive therefore as I previously suggested. You obviously have one expensive big animal, you have stated you are on a limited budget, I'm right there with you, to really enjoy your time in Africa drop the sable hunt and go for 2 or more of less expensive animals like warthog, blesbok, Impala, springbok, black back jackal, baboon, monkey, zebra, blue or black wildebeest, bushbuck, red hartebeest, with more animals to hunt the better your experience as a first timer.

You next trip plan the sable as your expensive animal you may even be able to combine a sable with an eland, gemsbok, leechwe, waterbuck, red hartebeest, then add a couple of the less expensive animals.

By doing this you will be able to afford more trips to Africa and rack up a good collection of various African animal trophies.

You can use this method the same way for DG. save for a buff then add a less expensive animal or 2 or 3.

With the right outfitter and good communications your PH should allow you to change out animals for when that ultimate trophy animal on a future list comes out of nowhere and you already have money paid into this hunt.

That's why good communications and having a good outfitter are important. We have animals of opportunity lists for such surprises as in Africa you may be hunting one animal when surprise an animal presents itself and suddenly becomes the primary query. This happens quite often; as in my 2021 hunt we were looking for warthog and 2 yellowtail mongoose we're by the bakki, and looking for gemsbok and I shot a very nice leechwe. I still ended up with a nice gemsbok later as this was a 14 day trip with 4 primary animals on my main list and 7 animals on my animals of opportunity list.

The animals I didn't get on my animals of opportunity list I can now upgrade to add ons for future trips.

The fore mentioned is why we call it the African Addiction.

If you paid for your hunt in 2021 then you should be locked in with 2021 prices. On the other hand planning a hunt 8 years in advance as the hunt gets within a year or two you should be locked in at that current rate which would be relatively higher than 8 years ago, or lower which seldom but can happen due to increase in herd size and subsequent reason for cull hunts. The 75% increase for hunting on this particular farm I would have to question the PH on finding a good sable on another farm. If we are talking about hunting with a tape measure for a specific size record book animal that's a different set of circumstances.

 

[buck wild]

I'm with WAB on this one. A landowner in RSA has to walk two hours to get to his sable. Sounds really off.
I'm going with Buffalo as your main quarry at $9,500 and the sable originally quoted at $4 has now gone to $7 (75% upcharge=$3k) this removing your buffer to kill a $1,200 bushbuck.

But that's just my imagination, but since a lot of folks only read a few of the actual facts, I'm sure my scenario will show up again later in the thread as the facts

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Reading through this thread it sounds like your PH/Outfitter has been extremely upfront with you regarding pricing and your hunt was planned on already thin budget constraints (going early) as well as thin margins for the Outfitter. I've only been on 2 safaris and am going on 3 & 4 this summer. All of them had clauses about price increases. I like you am not wealthy. Hunting is more important than replacing my 03 Pick-up or a bigger house (though wall space is getting to be a concern). When I start planning a hunt I try to budget an extra 20-25%. You never know what unexpected cost will come up, extra opportunity on an animal, piece of equipment/rifle, etc.

It also sounds like you booked your hunt in the beginning of 2021 when most RSA Outfitters were still unsure about hunting and if they were going to have a shortened or non-existent season. Their market and livelihood had been decimated. I heard stories of PH's having vehicles repossessed, not making payments, selling off personal belongings, etc. Lots of outfitters were offering killer deals at or below their total cost just to get people into the country hunting and during this time Sable prices were at rock bottom. Many PH's were offering crazy deals on them and donating them at Auctions to make-up for dollars lost. It also sounds like your larger than average deposit might've also been a way for him to help float by as many PH's didn't get a lot of traffic in 2021.

I like @WAB question the 2 hour walk. On my buffalo hunt we walked well over that each morning and afternoon on tracks but it wasn't to get to the area. I very much enjoyed our walks, even the blind ones to try and cross tracks. I did notice the sable on that property congregated in several areas, but all could've been reached by vehicle.

Moral being; talk to the Outfitter. He sounds like he's been very upfront with you. Maybe y'all can reach an agreement on the Bushbuck of opportunity? Maybe you can leave him some of your hunting clothing and equipment/ammo as a partial trade. It doesn't sound like he's trying to screw you over, sounds like he's in a hard sport with the landowner. Has he tried reaching out to other Outfitters and Landowners about trying to find another place? Have y'all considered looking for more of a management Sable? Will he allow you a credit difference towards a future hunt with him? Can he get you a better deal on your dip/pack or taxidermy? You mentioned saving and getting to your goal early; would he be willing to work out a payment plan to be paid before the taxidermist ships the animal? Can he add on a couple days without daily rates to account for the walking?

Talk to the Outfitter and be willing to get creative with some fuzzy math that works out to be mutually beneficial both your ends.

 

[daawg1963]

Hi all!

I´ve ended up in a sticky situation and would gladly receive some advice. I´ll keep all identifiable info out not to discredit this outfitter prematurely.

I do believe some background is necessary. I have a lower income level than many on this forum and in 2014 I decided that I wanted to hunt a certain prime animal in Africa. I´ve made many tough sacrifices along the way and saved hard. My initial plan was to go in 2024, but I have been saving enough to go already in 2022.

Having worked for this for years I had a good idea of what I wanted and I found an offer from a smaller outfitter where the owner, let´s call him Bob, is also the PH. One client at a time in camp, just what I want. I checked him up online, contacted everyone I could find on any forum that had hunted with him and not a single negative word from anyone, rather the opposite, only words of praise and recommendations to go with this guy. So, in Jan 2020 I signed the deal. In the deal for this prime animal, there was also a possibility to add on a specific animal at a special price, let´s call it a springbuck (which it of course isn´t). I confirmed that I´d like to take up the offer on the "springbuck" long before this season kicked in. Hunt is taking place in a few months in South Africa (not mentioning the province). The price for the springbuck deal is in the contract, and the "springbuck" is a number 2 on my bucket list and hence an important part of why I signed the deal originally.

It´s now getting closer to the hunt date and I got an email that the prices of "springbucks" have gone up, and unfortunately the price would now be 75% higher than the price in the contract. I questioned this and got a response that it can still be taken for the original price, but that requires a 2hr hike each direction to a distant area where he owns his own "springbucks". This would mean that a significant part of the hunt would be spent in transportation, albeit on foot (also one of the reasons for choosing this outfit was that all concessions were reachable within max 30 min driving, with the main intended one in 15 min). Another consequence is that unless I pay the higher trophy fee, I´ll NOT be able to take a "springbuck" if we stumble upon one while hunting the prime animal. Considering my budget I don´t have a lot o spare days so this could significantly reduce my odds on the "springbuck".

From a true legal aspect I do believe that I have a strong position, but that´s not all in this case. Me and Bob are supposed to hunt together and spend a lot of time in the bush. If I come there and we have differences already from the start, I´m quite convinced that this experience that I´ve dreamt of and worked hard for, for 8 years won´t be what I expected. On the other hand, the beans are already spilled and the trust Bob has gained from me (which was quite substantially) has already taken a significant dent.

Any advice on how to act are highly appreciated.

LOOK ELSE WERE , BUT GET YOUR DEPOSIT BACK

 

[mark-hunter]

My secondary thoughts.
I am following this forum for number of years (if that considers as experience), including occasional complaining hunt report, with special interest.
I am following various offers and deals, on this forum and other sources for the same number of years
I have been on succesful Safari three times.

So, after all this, I cannot say that I have ever seen a price increase 75% for trophy fee!
In order to establish regular prices, just check deals and offers on this forum. Get the idea on average price for your animal.

All in all, I would go for agreed price, with two hours hike, as been given as option.

Now, Lets talk about prime game, in plains game department:

Prime game in most commonly visited safari countries, Namibia and south Africa, but also in other countries, are sable and roan.
In some cases the trophy fee for them can be in the level of entire PG safari for usuall other 4-6 PG species.
I am also on limited budget, and would like to hunt roan and sable.
But I am not giving that much money for them.

For this reason, (and I hope I will make more safaris in the future), I look for a sable or roan with broken horn, or non trophy, and then when opportunity arises, I will ask for discount.

So, you may postpone this part of hunt for better time and opportunity, and there are available many other iconic species to hunt, for less money. Zebra, blue wildeebeest, girraffe, etc

 

[Inline6]

@Fredrik

I did not read much other than your first post. My thoughts are prices do go up as much as it sucks. That said you busted your ass for 8 years to make this happen, no way in hell I would let 4 hours of walking keep me from completing my dream. If he has the spot and he is willing to hold his price and put the work in to make it happen. Make sure you have a good pair of boots and that will be one awesome story to remember every time you look at the pictures or the mount.

Life gave you lemons time to make lemonade.

 

[Fredrik]

Hi all and thanks for all your support.

I´ve now been in contact with the outfitter and this item is now fully resolved. The main reasons for our misunderstanding were some (incorrect) assumptions from my end and some incomplete information from the outfitter.

In order to explain the situation, the outfitter has showed gret transparency and honesty, which is inline with how he acted before. In our contract we had the amount X for prime animal + Y hunting days. He has been very transparent and even showed me the prices he pays to the land owners, and he will have to pay more than my total cost (prime animal + day fees) only to cover the TF of the prime animal to the land owner, on top of that he has the cost of my day fees to cover (including transfer from/to the airport). Hence he´ll take a significant loss here but he has not transferred this additional cost to me at all. On top of this the land owner as raised the fee for sable significantly from a previously low level to a more average-plus level. Hence the outfitter would take another (significant) loss on my behlaf in letting me take the sable there. In order to still honor our deal he offered me to take the sable at his land instead, for the agreed price, which I now realize was a very nice gesture of him trying to solve the current situation. Being from Europe, I made (incorrect) assumptions that the hunting business worked similarly in Africa as over here, and that he had locked prices with the land owner when we signed our deal and hence he´d be at no loss. Apparently that´s not how it works in SA and a clearly incorrect input to te equation from my end.

Regarding the 2 hr trek, that was a worst case scenario if the sables were hanging out in the furthermost area from where the hunting starts (but of course they could be closer), but his message was basically that it could be a long and hard day which requires some physical abilities, which is OK with me, but if I feel lazy, the opportunity to take the sable in the originally intended area is still there, but then at a higher price tag.

So, I think I was a bit quick to judge him, and I have given him my hones apologies! I now understand he has actually made efforts to honor our initial deal - despite being a shitty one for him. I do feel that trust has been regained and that I have a good gut feeling and that I´m honestly looking forward with going hunting with him.

Thanks again for all support and relevant aspects of the situation brought up by all of you!

 

[geoff rath]

Hi all and thanks for all your support.

I´ve now been in contact with the outfitter and this item is now fully resolved. The main reasons for our misunderstanding were some (incorrect) assumptions from my end and some incomplete information from the outfitter.

In order to explain the situation, the outfitter has showed gret transparency and honesty, which is inline with how he acted before. In our contract we had the amount X for prime animal + Y hunting days. He has been very transparent and even showed me the prices he pays to the land owners, and he will have to pay more than my total cost (prime animal + day fees) only to cover the TF of the prime animal to the land owner, on top of that he has the cost of my day fees to cover (including transfer from/to the airport). Hence he´ll take a significant loss here but he has not transferred this additional cost to me at all. On top of this the land owner as raised the fee for sable significantly from a previously low level to a more average-plus level. Hence the outfitter would take another (significant) loss on my behlaf in letting me take the sable there. In order to still honor our deal he offered me to take the sable at his land instead, for the agreed price, which I now realize was a very nice gesture of him trying to solve the current situation. Being from Europe, I made (incorrect) assumptions that the hunting business worked similarly in Africa as over here, and that he had locked prices with the land owner when we signed our deal and hence he´d be at no loss. Apparently that´s not how it works in SA and a clearly incorrect input to te equation from my end.

Regarding the 2 hr trek, that was a worst case scenario if the sables were hanging out in the furthermost area from where the hunting starts (but of course they could be closer), but his message was basically that it could be a long and hard day which requires some physical abilities, which is OK with me, but if I feel lazy, the opportunity to take the sable in the originally intended area is still there, but then at a higher price tag.

So, I think I was a bit quick to judge him, and I have given him my hones apologies! I now understand he has actually made efforts to honor our initial deal - despite being a shitty one for him. I do feel that trust has been regained and that I have a good gut feeling and that I´m honestly looking forward with going hunting with him.

Thanks again for all support and relevant aspects of the situation brought up by all of you!

A great result! I suspect that a repeat visit/hunt in the future could be on the cards ....

 

[Scott CWO]

Hi all and thanks for all your support.

I´ve now been in contact with the outfitter and this item is now fully resolved. The main reasons for our misunderstanding were some (incorrect) assumptions from my end and some incomplete information from the outfitter.

In order to explain the situation, the outfitter has showed gret transparency and honesty, which is inline with how he acted before. In our contract we had the amount X for prime animal + Y hunting days. He has been very transparent and even showed me the prices he pays to the land owners, and he will have to pay more than my total cost (prime animal + day fees) only to cover the TF of the prime animal to the land owner, on top of that he has the cost of my day fees to cover (including transfer from/to the airport). Hence he´ll take a significant loss here but he has not transferred this additional cost to me at all. On top of this the land owner as raised the fee for sable significantly from a previously low level to a more average-plus level. Hence the outfitter would take another (significant) loss on my behlaf in letting me take the sable there. In order to still honor our deal he offered me to take the sable at his land instead, for the agreed price, which I now realize was a very nice gesture of him trying to solve the current situation. Being from Europe, I made (incorrect) assumptions that the hunting business worked similarly in Africa as over here, and that he had locked prices with the land owner when we signed our deal and hence he´d be at no loss. Apparently that´s not how it works in SA and a clearly incorrect input to te equation from my end.

Regarding the 2 hr trek, that was a worst case scenario if the sables were hanging out in the furthermost area from where the hunting starts (but of course they could be closer), but his message was basically that it could be a long and hard day which requires some physical abilities, which is OK with me, but if I feel lazy, the opportunity to take the sable in the originally intended area is still there, but then at a higher price tag.

So, I think I was a bit quick to judge him, and I have given him my hones apologies! I now understand he has actually made efforts to honor our initial deal - despite being a shitty one for him. I do feel that trust has been regained and that I have a good gut feeling and that I´m honestly looking forward with going hunting with him.

Thanks again for all support and relevant aspects of the situation brought up by all of you!

Glad it’s resolved but I don’t understand why your daily rates plus prime animal trophy fee will amount to less than what he has to pay the landowner? Seems he made you a deal before working out prices with the landowner? You might consider paying him a bit more so he’s not losing money or tip him quite well. A lot of European hunters don’t tip. Don’t be one of those guys. I hope you have a great safari.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Congrats on getting things satisfactorily worked out and all is well. Hope you have a great hunt and overall great time in Africa. I'm looking forward to reading your hunt report.

 

[WAB]

Glad it’s resolved but I don’t understand why your daily rates plus prime animal trophy fee will amount to less than what he has to pay the landowner? Seems he made you a deal before working out prices with the landowner? You might consider paying him a bit more so he’s not losing money or tip him quite well. A lot of European hunters don’t tip. Don’t be one of those guys. I hope you have a great safari.

Agreed Scott. I have a belief that no one should lose money doing business with me as long as they are honest, capable and hard working. Reduce the scope of the contract or increase payment, but don’t leave an honest man short.

 

[Scott CWO]

Agreed Scott. I have a belief that no one should lose money doing business with me as long as they are honest, capable and hard working. Reduce the scope of the contract or increase payment, but don’t leave an honest man short.

That’s a great belief and motto! My father taught me that a business deal has to be good for both sides or it won’t last.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think Mark A Ouellette nailed it pretty well. I´ll keep you posted on the progress. I´m not looking for a blame and I am willing to work for a solution.

@Fredrik
I'm with others here if you can't work out your 2nd dream animal maybe hunt cheaper ones. Yes a Sable is a magnificent animal BUT a good gemsbok/oryx is also spectacular and about a third the price. Why not get more animals for the same price as well as your prime first choice. You will not be disappointed as and it will be a win win for everyone. Adapt to a change of animals and you will have an even better hunt.
As others have said when you get there there will be animals you wish you had budgets for. I know I did. I dropped one animal for another and was glad I did.
The key to a GREAT HUNT is be FLEXIBLE.
Bob

 

[spike.t]

I would still love to know what the original sable price was....as to me that would show whether it was originally realistic or not....