So you think you need to own a Stopping Rifle...

[Frederik]

All this talk about big bores scares me I don't have enough loaded ammo to finish up the year.

12 Oct 18 shots BASA
2 November BASA Corporate shoot 14-16 shots
9-16 Nov a hunt with a friend and playing a bit with rifles 15-20 shots
End of November BASA shoot another 18 rounds

Then in February we start all over with our first of 6 yearly shoots BASA, Mayge another dangeorus game shoot hosted by someone else corporate shoot and maybe one or two more.

Basically I get to shoot 200 rounds of my 458 lott roughly over year and that is just on shoots not at the range to check zero or hunting.

So I get enough practise and I'm sure if your physically capable and in shape you could do it with larger bores as well but it takes time don't think you are going to pick up a 458 or larger and just hit the targets.

It takes getting used too.

Big Question is the DG PH's and outfitters do they get in enough practise?
Not want to stir the pot but we have seen PH's come once to our shoots and never again since he didn't fare that well instead of coming back practising and learning more.
Some stick aporund and become great shots I was there long ago came and thought as a PH no this is easy and I was tottaly wrong.

@DWB is soon going to get his new 500 Jeff in his hands and that will be a new learning cycle I can't wait for him to show off the rifle think the engraving on it is basically done.

What is in my future of bigger bores if the stars align and I can find a proper magnum action that will be a 550 Magnum. I intend to download it and be able to shoot a full day with it without breaking the bank or myself by shooting 650gr bullet at 2150-2200fps that is a dream but we will see.

 

[RR 314]

All this talk about big bores scares me I don't have enough loaded ammo to finish up the year.

12 Oct 18 shots BASA
2 November BASA Corporate shoot 14-16 shots
9-16 Nov a hunt with a friend and playing a bit with rifles 15-20 shots
End of November BASA shoot another 18 rounds

Then in February we start all over with our first of 6 yearly shoots BASA, Mayge another dangeorus game shoot hosted by someone else corporate shoot and maybe one or two more.

Basically I get to shoot 200 rounds of my 458 lott roughly over year and that is just on shoots not at the range to check zero or hunting.

So I get enough practise and I'm sure if your physically capable and in shape you could do it with larger bores as well but it takes time don't think you are going to pick up a 458 or larger and just hit the targets.

It takes getting used too.

Big Question is the DG PH's and outfitters do they get in enough practise?
Not want to stir the pot but we have seen PH's come once to our shoots and never again since he didn't fare that well instead of coming back practising and learning more.
Some stick aporund and become great shots I was there long ago came and thought as a PH no this is easy and I was tottaly wrong.

@DWB is soon going to get his new 500 Jeff in his hands and that will be a new learning cycle I can't wait for him to show off the rifle think the engraving on it is basically done.

What is in my future of bigger bores if the stars align and I can find a proper magnum action that will be a 550 Magnum. I intend to download it and be able to shoot a full day with it without breaking the bank or myself by shooting 650gr bullet at 2150-2200fps that is a dream but we will see.

I have only shot my .550 Magnum a handful of times, Velocity right around the 2170 ft./s (from rusty memory) and it is fun. I will try some of the other loads from Neal Shirley one of these days. Even in the 2150 through 2200 per second I still think it would stop a bushbuck charge quickly and decisively. Good luck getting one built.

 

[colorado]

I've shot a 450 Rigby, less recoil with standard loads but from what I've read, the big 50s hit significantly harder, not due to energy but the diameter of the bullet. Of the three big 50s, I think loading the 500 Jeffery with a fast powder (like H4895) is the most power for the least recoil. I think I'm going to switch from 570g TSX's to 570g A-Frames and load them down to 2150 fps (500 NE velocity) and see how they shoot.

 

[Brian]

Very true. I do 100 pushups in a single set three times per week. I do pelvic and abby exercises every day my physical therapist taught me and that handles my core. I then power walk from 20-30 miles per week with three months before a safari I take my 15 pound cardio steel bar on all my power walks simulating my rifle. Forget hunting it helps me enjoy life with my grand children.

You are a Rare Breed!
100 pushups in single setting!!. I haven't done 100 pushup, total, in the last 10 years. I am impressed! Brian

 

[Northern Shooter]

I've shot a 450 Rigby, less recoil with standard loads but from what I've read, the big 50s hit significantly harder, not due to energy but the diameter of the bullet. Of the three big 50s, I think loading the 500 Jeffery with a fast powder (like H4895) is the most power for the least recoil. I think I'm going to switch from 570g TSX's to 570g A-Frames and load them down to 2150 fps (500 NE velocity) and see how they shoot.

Can you think of any other cartridges that fall between the 458 Lott and 500 Jeffery or have we touched upon them all?

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Something like this.

HH

 

[colorado]

470 NE, 470 Capstick to name a few

 

[Daniel Cary]

And so did I, until recently.

I've made several posts here regarding the various big bores on my journey up the dangerous game/big bore cartridge-ladder and where that dividing line falls between a "hunter" and "stopper" cartridge. I started off with the 375HH and have since added a 416 Rigby, 458 WinMag and most recently a 470 NE.

What I have discovered is that I kind of like the magical line of roughly 5,100 ft-lbs of muzzle energy and 70-75 ft-lbs recoil energy that is exhibited in those last 3 examples. Going above that isn't as much fun.

I've always been curious about the >0.50 cal offerings like the classic 500NE, 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs and have always viewed them as exotics along the lines of a Ferrari.

This past weekend I had the opportunity to shoot both a 470NE and 500NE back to back in the same rifle model (Merkel 140) and while some here have said the difference in recoil between the two is negligible , I was able to feel the difference.

I was very comfortable shooting the 470, Afterall it produces roughly the same ballistics as my 458 WM, yet the rifle weighed a full 2 lbs heavier, making the experience enjoyable. The same 11lbs rifle in 500NE was still a push, just a BIG push which raised the muzzle higher, took me longer to reset and let my shoulder know I was shooting a 500.

Knowing that the 500 produces roughly 700 ft-lbs of additional oomph over the 470, and that it's really the entry level of the heavy-hitters has me asking why the need for more? I'm a fairly big guy (6'6'', 260lbs) and have never been recoil shy but I think I may have reached my upper threshold.

A comparable bolt-action like the 458 Lott produces the same energy as a 500 in a much lighter rifle will which be producing in the range of 80-ft-lbs of recoil, The 450 Rigby about 95 ft-lbs and the 500J and 500G over 100-ft-lbs..

While I fully support anyone that chooses to add one of the above cartridges to their stable, I feel like these fall more into the realm of PH stopper cartridges vs what the average North American hunter that may hunt dangerous game a couple times in their life truly requires. Again, if your someone who frequently hunts Elephants then I can see the case for it.

While the 458 WM and 470NE also likely fall into the category of a stopper cartridge I am viewing them more along the lines of "Stopper-Light", closer in performance to the 375s, 404s and 416s than the 458 Lott, 450 Rigby, 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs and so on.

When it comes to ammo costs and availability the same divide appears to belong that 470 / 500 line. Here in Canada I have no problem sourcing ammo for my 375/416/458/470 but once you start looking into the 500s, availability plumets and cost per round doubles.

In short, as someone who has recently caught the all things African-hunting bug but has only hunted in North American and will likely only have 1 or 2 opportunities to hunt in Africa, I think I have reached my practical limit in the cartridge world with the 470NE.

As much as I love the mystique, romance and exoticness of the 50cals, I think I will leave that to the PH.

Where do you draw the line?

@Northern Shooter

This is interesting history. 375, 416, + seem to be suffice. sounds like the 50's were obsolete for 35yrs until CZ: (In the magazine's)

 

[Rare Breed]

I've shot a 450 Rigby, less recoil with standard loads but from what I've read, the big 50s hit significantly harder, not due to energy but the diameter of the bullet. Of the three big 50s, I think loading the 500 Jeffery with a fast powder (like H4895) is the most power for the least recoil. I think I'm going to switch from 570g TSX's to 570g A-Frames and load them down to 2150 fps (500 NE velocity) and see how they shoot.

You will find much lower felt recoil using IMR3031achieving your same FPS versus your H4895. Sorry I only had loads for my 500 NE not the Jeffery or I would supply them

 

[CZDiesel]

470 NE, 470 Capstick to name a few

470 Capstick yes, 470 NE no. The 458 Lott is more powerful than the 470 NE…

 

[Huvius]

So, are we operating under the assumption that stopping rifles start at .600?
I sort of thought that a true “stopping rifle” is more like the 577 or 500.

One thing I’ve learned is that even a 500 or 577 in the brisket is not stopping anything.
A steady hand and a good bullet of almost any caliber in the central nervous system of any game animal is more of a stopper than a poorly placed big bore of 5000ft/lbs energy.

 

[Brian]

I've shot a 450 Rigby, less recoil with standard loads but from what I've read, the big 50s hit significantly harder, not due to energy but the diameter of the bullet. Of the three big 50s, I think loading the 500 Jeffery with a fast powder (like H4895) is the most power for the least recoil. I think I'm going to switch from 570g TSX's to 570g A-Frames and load them down to 2150 fps (500 NE velocity) and see how they shoot.

Agreed, it's the diameter of the bullet, given that the construction and design of the bullets are similar.
I have found that, within reason, diameter and design of the bullet is more significant than the velocity.
As mentioned, I have killed several cape buffalo with 410 grain CEB Safari Raptors in a .50-110 Win. at 1,950 fps, muzzle velocity. All one shot, double lungs. DTR.

Brian

 

[Northern Shooter]

So, are we operating under the assumption that stopping rifles start at .600?
I sort of thought that a true “stopping rifle” is more like the 577 or 500.

One thing I’ve learned is that even a 500 or 577 in the brisket is not stopping anything.
A steady hand and a good bullet of almost any caliber in the central nervous system of any game animal is more of a stopper than a poorly placed big bore of 5000ft/lbs energy.

I think 0.458 cal producing a minimum of 5,000ft-lbs seems like a reasonable lower threshold for a stopper cartridge.

Of course the 0.505, 0.510, 0.577 etc will provide more of the same.

 

[BJH65]

Can you think of any other cartridges that fall between the 458 Lott and 500 Jeffery or have we touched upon them all?

450 Ackley Magnum. Several nice custom rifles chambered in this cartridge currently listed on guns international. I believe the 458 Win Mag and 458 Lott can also be used in these rifles too. Also the 450 Watts Magnum, a rifle that one of my PH’s on our 1997 Mozambique safari carried, a BRNO ZKK converted to 450 Watts. Don’t see too many of these anymore.

 

[colorado]

You will find much lower felt recoil using IMR3031achieving your same FPS versus your H4895. Sorry I only had loads for my 500 NE not the Jeffery or I would supply them

Thanks I'm assuming you use fillers in your 500 NE? The load I have for my 500 Jeffery with H4895 is straight out of the book "Any Shot You Want" Seems to work fine. I'm going to try 101g H4895 with the 570g A-Frames and see how they shoot and what my new Garmin Chronograph tells me. If they're over 2150 fps that might be my new load Thanks for all of your help.

 

[John Telford]

I have had my fair share of flack for shooting only big bores. Always amazes me how scared some people are of recoil that it bothers them if I shoot it

First time I shot my 404 I thought what the hell did I just do, now I shoot my 450 Rigby without hassle and will learn to use my 500 Jeffery in the same way soon enough.

Can’t wait For Gerrie to get that one out the vice!

 

[John Telford]

I started out with a.375 as it was the “most all round African rifle” and min cal for big game etc…
It really kicked me hard vs my then biggest cal - a .338 win mag.
But since then I slowly climbed the big bore ladder reaching level .505. I’m sure may of you will have a similar journey and may agree that one becomes acclimatised to recoil. I know find myself climbing down a few rungs to the level of .416 Taylor , a true lost classic.

 

[Sideshow]

Some interesting reading! Thanks guys. What’s DTR?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Some interesting reading! Thanks guys. What’s DTR?

I'm guessing "dead to rights." Acronyms are a lazy man's way of communicating.

 

[Monski]

Unless he meant to type DRT, dead right there.