Slugs for Bear

[WAB]

I always read all SLUG Threads with great interest.
But what amazes me, is that in gun-liberal America there are huge hunting areas and even states where hunting with rifles is not allowed.Only shotguns with slugs and buckshot.
I can only speculate about the reasons.
But would you have an official explanation for a German hunter where this is totally unusual?
Greetings and thanks
Foxi

Typically urban areas with high population density. The concern is over the potential for rifle bullets to carry on into these areas and injure someone. Interestingly, many of these restricted areas allow muzzleloaders. With the advance of modern muzzleloaders, any logic to their restrictions on center fire rifles is completely lost.

 

[rookhawk]

I always read all SLUG Threads with great interest.
But what amazes me, is that in gun-liberal America there are huge hunting areas and even states where hunting with rifles is not allowed.Only shotguns with slugs and buckshot.
I can only speculate about the reasons.
But would you have an official explanation for a German hunter where this is totally unusual?
Greetings and thanks
Foxi

There is an ironclad constitutional right to own firearms in America. There is no such constitutional right to hunt. The liberals cannot defeat our 2nd amendment directly but they can make hunting expensive, difficult, and they can make ammunition expensive.

All back-door attacks on their true target, gun confiscation.

If you don’t like that answer, another answer is that slugs don’t travel as far and simple minded politicians in urban centers that have never visited 99% of their State assume you’ll kill dozens of people if your bullet travels 100 meters past your deer. Truly, that’s the naive official explanation for slug-only laws. Illinois for example, has 101 counties and 4 of them are urban/suburban (Chicago) whereas the remainder are rural agriculture.

To further undermine their excuses, most states that only allow slugs for hunting game also allow killing coyotes any day of the year with any weapon from .22lr through .50BMG. Go figure.

 

[Foxi]

There is an ironclad constitutional right to own firearms in America. There is no such constitutional right to hunt. The liberals cannot defeat our 2nd amendment directly but they can make hunting expensive, difficult, and they can make ammunition expensive.

All back-door attacks on their true target, gun confiscation.

If you don’t like that answer, another answer is that slugs don’t travel as far and simple minded politicians in urban centers that have never visited 99% of their State assume you’ll kill dozens of people if your bullet travels 100 meters past your deer. Truly, that’s the naive official explanation for slug-only laws. Illinois for example, has 101 counties and 4 of them are urban/suburban (Chicago) whereas the remainder are rural agriculture.

To further undermine their excuses, most states that only allow slugs for hunting game also allow killing coyotes any day of the year with any weapon from .22lr through .50BMG. Go figure.

Wow. I always thought we had the maximum of illogic.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Wow. I always thought we had the maximum of illogic.

The other matter you have to understand is that training for a hunting license in Germany is on a whole other level.
Hunter Training in the US is targeted to teaching children at an introductory level.
No insurance required, etc.

I think legislators use that concept as a justification to manage for the lowest common denominator.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I always read all SLUG Threads with great interest.
But what amazes me, is that in gun-liberal America there are huge hunting areas and even states where hunting with rifles is not allowed.Only shotguns with slugs and buckshot.
I can only speculate about the reasons.
But would you have an official explanation for a German hunter where this is totally unusual?
Greetings and thanks
Foxi

I grew up in an area where shotgun slugs were required, but now allows rifles. I also have a German Jagdschein, so I feel somewhat qualified to answer.

German hunters typically, but not always hunt from a Hochsitz, and the downward angle of the shot guarantees a Kugelfang. Stalking is not as typical. Additionally, the limited number of licenses for a Revier limits the number of hunters in the field.

In the US, stalking is more common, and the Hochsitz less so. Very few concern themselves with Kugelfangen. The areas where this is common tend to have very flat and somewhat open terrain. Also, the seasons are shorter, and there is a higher hunter density in given areas. A slug will do very well at close in distances, which means the hunters must be close to shoot, and there is little chance there will be an "unseen" hunter on the ground within the likely ranges.

As has been mentioned, hunter training does play a role. Also not usually considered is how few deer were around (due to previous over-hunting) when many of the laws were passed. Forcing a hunter to get closer created fewer opportunities for a shot.

It's merely a different approach to the same problem set. You can limit "out of control" shots with training and limiting the number of hunters in the area, or you can limit the maximum effective range of the weapon. Personally, I'd rather use a rifle, even though unless I'm in a seat, I still try to stalk to within what would be considered "shotgun range".

 

[willbaforce]

Take a look at Dixie Slugs for a 12ga.

 

[raamw]

The us Forest service use shotguns with slugs for years on Bear protection. The problem with universal slugs that are intended for use in any choke is the have to be soft so they can get through a tight choke without damaging the barrel but as a results they will flatten causing poor penetration but properly placed it carries a big whack. The rifled slug barrels utilize sabot slugs which fro the most part are held inside of a sabot. These can utilize much hard projectiles resulting in deeper penetration, you choice

 

[450 Fuller]

This is an older thread, but the inherent value is timeless. I think the 10 GA /3.5 in slugs might be the
best bet for shotguns.
In the meantime, will still rely on a fast-handling pre-war Winchester Model 71; chambered in 450 Alaskan with 400-500 gr FP bullets. Lever -action rifles are fast, and final.

 

[50Gunner]

I have an old 1950 year model FN Browning A-5 12 gauge, it has three barrels, one barrel is a smooth bore with rifle sights and is 24" long, i have found no better slug for smooth bores than the Brenekee KO slugs, they are soft shooting and very accurate out to 100 yards.

For rifled slugs i have an 870 Remington 20 gauge with fully rifled barrel, i buy the 20 gauge dangerous game slugs from ballisticproducts.com, also purchased some 2-3/4" primed Fiocchi hulls, with a max dose of 800X powder and a nice fold crimp they shoot into 3 inches [variable winds 5-10mph] at 100 yards at 1550 fps, the little shotgun wears a near bullet proof old steel tube 3X Weaver, it's wrapped in flat black paper tape to cut down on glare, have never shot a bear with it, but would use that mini 577 Nitro on any game animal in U.S./Alaska or Canada this side of 100 yards, a truly hard hitting 6 round combo that wrecks the hell out of homemade test media, to include hard packed glossy Wife magazines with random cattle bones all packed snug in waxed cardboard moving boxes, a very tough, low recoiling customer it is.

 

[SAFARIKIDD]

Huge Black Bears...[emoji33][emoji199]
3" Brenneke Magnum Crush or Black Magic for Me !
Below...
Benelli 18" Rifled Barrel
with Sights and Red Dot
6.4 pds 38"long and 8 Fast shots in a all weather package! Also have a 21" Vent barrel for Buckshot[emoji95]

 

[Alaska338]

For Alaska
Breneke Original Magnum Slug
Is the preferred slug for Bear Protection
Cylinder Bore

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Brenneke Black Magic will do the job.

 

[Hagler.450Ex]

Brenneke Black Magic will do the job.

I second this. It's all one needs. Mimics the old 7-dram ball load workhorse of Vicky-Africa, but has the added benefit of not penetrating a dozen houses that may be over the hill. Also for anyone relying on off-the-shelf, be it game rangers, etc.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Skyline,
Check out the French company Sauvestre, I think I spelled that right. They make a finned sabot slug that looks like a badminton birdie. It hits like a ton of bricks and is very accurate at longer ranges. It might be easier for you to get a hold of a French made round like this. I have shot them out of my rifled Mossberg 695 bolt gun with good results. Here in Germany they are actually harder to get than American slugs, go figure.

@Macs B
I have a Mossberg maverick bolt gun. Smoothbore with a modified choke and 22" barrel.
I mounted a Bushnell red dot on it and it cuts clover leaves at fifty and a 3" group at 100 .
Sighted 2" high at 50 it's 4" low at 100.
It's favourite slug load is the S&B 3" Magnum.
Man you know you have touched it off in that light gun.
Bob

 

[5shot]

16 years and still going! It’s old enough to drive.

 

[450 Fuller]

Alaskan guides still prefer heavy lever actions in 45-70 by Winchester, Marlin or Henry.
A 350-400 gr FP .458 bullet at 1200-1800 fps packs more authority than most 12 GA slugs.

Then also, the lever-action rifle may have 4 or 5 more shots in the magazine...ready for instant use or backup. Rifle Accuracy is superior to most shotguns. The 45-70 FP bullet packs a real lethal punch.

 

[1dirthawker]

Alaskan guides still prefer heavy lever actions in 45-70 by Winchester, Marlin or Henry.
A 350-400 gr FP .458 bullet at 1200-1800 fps packs more authority than most 12 GA slugs.

100% when i am guiding, i am best served by a rifle. i have several that i have used as a backup, 45-70, 375 ruger, 450-400 and 458 win. much better for hunting.

i also have a side gig as a "bear guard" and we are required to use shotguns. i consider the brenneke slugs as the best, 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 oz slugs at 15-1600 fps (550-650 gr slugs) is a pretty potent combo at under 25 yards. one cannot engage a bear with a slug ("go lethal") unless under 25 yards and coming forward.

my 45-70 with heavy bullets would certainly be as good and likely better for the guarding work, but they wont allow the bear guards to carry anything but a shotgun. oh well.

 

[HankBuck]

The topic recently posted about using a slug gun in Africa prompted this post......not wanting to hyjack that thread.

Some recent regulation changes in an area I guide for black bear in Canada have limited guides to carrying a shotgun for backup. Please do don't ask why......suffice it to say that dealing with government idiots is trying at times, especially when they don't hunt or have any field experience of any kind and are making rules up about things they know nothing about.

I do not know anyone in Canada that I believe really knows what they are talking about with slugs as the use is relatively uncommon. So what slug would you boys recommend for black bear at close range in heavy, heavy bush? These bears are big and we regularly take bears 400 to 600 pounds.

Also, we cannot get slugs like those from Tar Hunt due to cross border hastles and regulations by the BATF that prevent many companies from shipping ammunition/bullets etc. north of the 49th. The slug would need to be something from one of the big name ammo companies like Remington, Federal, etc. that would routinely be imported by big hunting/shooting stores in Canada.

Thanks in advance.

@Skyline: Any 12 ga Slug you can get - 2 3/4” - 3” - 3 1/2” with a slug 1oz+…they all work and penetrate well especially under 25 yrds where you might be dispatching a wounded bear. Because NJ required only Buckshot for deer for many years before they allowed Slugs - I got to use both a lot. Buckshot is devastating UNDER 25 yrds (especially under 15 yrds) - either 00 or 000 but slugs penetrate deeper at any distance and especially over 25 yds. I’d guess the Copper solid slugs would outperform Lead regarding penetration but Lead “mushrooms” into 1”+ from a 12 ga slug and that might provide more “stopping” impact. I’ve killed many deer and 3 bear with slugs but None were “charging” me - so Who Cares? on any broadside shot on either “exits” were the Norm.
My preference on a “Charge” would always be Buckshot but that’s just my Opinion based on NOTHING because I’ve Never faced a charge. I do handle a shotgun well on flying targets and feel I could Hit a charging Bear more consistently with a load of Buckshot vs a Slug….but a charging Bear is NOT an incoming duck or clay target so all theory is just that “theory”. Ballistics mean Nothing if you can’t hit your target.
Lastly, I had two Guides on Maine Bearf Hunts tell me they “Prefer” a 12 ga Slug for Bear - whether over bait on when treed by Hounds. They said most Hunters refuse because they prefer to use their rifles but these Guides said Slugs knock bears down faster, leave Big Holes and good blood trails.

 

[HankBuck]

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?fid=011B&cid=012&tid=2121

10 bore with 2 oz slug if recoil is not a problem.

@Odinsraven - well a 10ga w/2oz Slug would certainly have plenty of Recoil…but the bruises and broken bones from ‘sighting in” should be well healed by the time you face a Bear charge !

 

[HankBuck]

Slugs—federal 3” 1 1/4 oz at advertised 1500 FPS are nasty stuff. Have to use them in my hunting area. Killed many, many deer and two bears with them. The bears weighed less then 250 # ea, but got a thru and thru on both and neither went more then 10 yds. Have seen some spectacular kills on deer. Only slug better was a slug by Remington called the Buckhammer.
They were 1 3/8 oz at 1600 FPS and were harder the the the Feds.
I shoot a 18 “ barrel 870 with sights and at 75 yds it will group 3-4 “.
Slugs are deadly and impressive!!!!!!

@Luvthunt - I am also a Big fan of the BUCKHAMMER Slugs that were discontinued many years ago by Remington ….about as aerodynamic as a Beer Can but accurate out to 100 yrds and left and impressive HOLE in whatever they hit, usually exited or lay just under the opposite hide. I found some to buy on line 10 years ago and bought 20 Boxes — I’m good for another 40 years now !