Slug hunting Plains Game and Dangerous Game?

[BeeMaa]

Your concerns will disappear when the higly praised double rifle is empty and the leopard is 5 feet away....



HWL

At 5 feet there wouldn't be anything left in my rifle...or my bowels.

 

[Eric Anderson]

A proper rifled slug barrel is damn accurate. Copper slugs solve the lack of penetration.
It is still a general weapon that can do everything withen 250 yards ( sabot slugs) but does not excell at anything beyond hitting birds on the wing.
Now, you could custom make a weapon chambered in 12 gauge that could compete with a dangerous game rifles at short range. You would have to use custom made solid brass hulls and handload them.
At this point, you are better off buying a rifle that has decent range.

 

[Paparock94]

I would rather have a .375 H&H or a .375 Ruger but in a pinch I would pick a Brenneke Orange Crush 3" (1-1/2 oz rifled lead slug with a velocity of 1600 fps and 3804 ft lbs of muzzle energy) or a Dixie Slugs 3" IXL-DGS (Dangerous Game Slug) 870 grs. and 1200fps out of a 20" barrel (1300FPS out of my 24"barrel). The 12 gauge slugs are not going to win any trajectory awards but in a self defense life or death situation which pretty much means well under 25 yards they sure out class any magnum handgun! Another 12 gauge slug round to consider is the Lightfield IDS Commander Plus 3" firing a 1 3/8 oz (600 grain) controlled expansion slug at 1700FPS and producing 3850 ft/lbs at the muzzle.

I no longer live in grizzly country (where I carried a custom .375H&H). My fully rifled bull barrel Ithaca DeerSlayer III could make a definite impression on a very large black bear. I have always liked heavy for caliber bullets especially on any animal who is as hard to track as a bear trying to make two big holes to hopefully leave some blood to trail. As for shot shells on any animal the only one I would personally use is the Dixie Slugs Tri-ball II 3" loaded with three .60 caliber hard alloy cast round balls/buckshot. The three balls/buckshot weigh 315 grains each and will pattern 3 1/2" (center to center) at 25 yards. I have killed deer with 00 buckshot but the Tri-ball is a whole different game.

 

[Von S.]

Long time ago , before I ever shot a Leopard, I was "talked into" having a shotgun as a back up to use as a CQW and that I should have Magnum buckshot loads at the ready.

I got my hands on a beautiful o/u 10 ga. That someone had with the end of the barrels smashed in and it was just too bad to push out. He about gave it to me and after I cut it off to 20 inches it was right as rain.

I never did use it for a cat back up as I dropped dead what i hit. A hyper expanding , fast moving , 350 grain out of a 458 WM takes all 9 lives from a kitty away very quickly.

I would not even consider a shotgun against any other dangerous game unless I had the muzzle on their head.

 

[IvW]

Wonder what either PHASA or SAPA have to say regarding the latest fiasco on one of the SAPA accredited breeding facilities where lion cubs etc. had to be removed and some euthanized...I guess neither organizations or nature conservation really care..as nobody ever did any inspections and the owner did just what he wanted...and that boils back down to giving hunters the bad name...if not controlled and monitored you can be a member of whatever you like and it makes no difference if you have no standards or don't follow the rules...

 

[rookhawk]

A PH "Leopard Man" expert I spoke with told me of another PH that used an SKS. I thought it was brilliant. No recoil, semi-automatic, and the spike bayonet extended for last line of defense if the leopard lunges at you.

Pretty slick follow-up PH gun for a leopard.

 

[IvW]

Wonder what either PHASA or SAPA have to say regarding the latest fiasco on one of the SAPA accredited breeding facilities where lion cubs etc. had to be removed and some euthanized...I guess neither organizations or nature conservation really care..as nobody ever did any inspections and the owner did just what he wanted...and that boils back down to giving hunters the bad name...if not controlled and monitored you can be a member of whatever you like and it makes no difference if you have no standards or don't follow the rules...

Not Sure how this ended up here....

 

[Scrumbag]

Slugs are an interesting idea as they let you make your shotgun into a "sort of" rifle.

Legally they have some advantages
- In the US there are shotgun only zones so seems logical to use a slug
- Canada they have advantages as those guys can have really short shotguns but hand guns are an issue

Then there's cost:
- A pump action is a cheap gun you aren't going to worry about scuffing up on the back of backpack or in and out of a boat
- They cost less than a rifle in lots of places
- In France, shotguns with slugs are popular as a semi-auto 12g with slugs is cheaper than say a 9.3x62 BAR or Benelli Argo (Even a nice semi-auto shotgun is). Also, not all rifles are "Battue" style so the shotguns tend to deal with running game better.

There is no doubt that slugs will put down moose, red deer and wild boar at close range but given there are some wide open spaces in Africa and a rifle can shoot near and far.

Now, if you have decided to try and have a go at some wing shooting down there, I would be tempted to have a couple of slugs in my pocket in case a warthog or impala came near your hide and you wanted something for camp...

Scrummy

 

[Scrumbag]

Also, forgot to add. If you read Dennis Blackbeard's book, he's not a fan of shotguns and following up big cats, and he spent quite a lot of time hunting the big Kalahari lions. I'd be tempted to listen.

 

[IvW]

Also, forgot to add. If you read Dennis Blackbeard's book, he's not a fan of shotguns and following up big cats, and he spent quite a lot of time hunting the big Kalahari lions. I'd be tempted to listen.

Correct slugs are not a good idea for Lions but if you only have a shotgun are the best thing for leopard...

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Not hunted in Africa , but l have used a lot of slugs on American Game. I have fired slugs from a 10 gauge Browning Gold Semi Auto and my Granddad's 12 gauge J Stevens Side by Side ( Federal Cape Shock Hollow points and foster slugs , respectively). At close range , they are very good for Deer sized game. I have hunted in a few " shotgun only areas " in the US and Slugs fired from a 10 gauge or a 12 gauge shotgun will completely pole axe a deer. For close range shots on plains game , l would deem it very possible.
Now , Dangerous game is a different story.
Leopards weigh 200-250 pounds ( Indian Leopards do , anyway ) and are very , very mean. But given that they are the same size as mountain lion ( which l HAVE killed using 12 gauge foster Slugs from my Granddad's J Stevens ) , l would guess that it is very possible.
African Lion is a complete No No. I mean , did you see the size of those things.
And l don't think we even need to THINK if slugs would work on Buffalo or Elephant... Unless we want to meet our maker.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

In terms of historical precedent , it has also been a very ill advised tactic. From my reading , the following people had THIS to say about shotgun slugs :
1) John Pondoro Taylor mentions that in Ceylon , the men who made the largest bags of Elephant ( 1200 and 1500 , respectively ) used nothing but ordinary Smoothbore BREECH-LOADING shotguns of 12 and 16 gauge with the barrels cut down to 24 inches for general handiness. They used ordinary spherical lead balls . However , he also goes on to note that Ceylon Elephants were far easier to kill than African Elephant and that these weapons would never work in Africa.
2) Kenneth Anderson , in his book " Nine Man eaters and One rogue " makes mention of 6 different men who tried to use 12 gauge side by side shotguns loaded with slugs on Royal Bengal Tigers . Out of those six, some of them were killed. Some were horribly mauled. But NOT one actually succeeded in Bagging the tigers with the 12 gauge slugs. The slugs which they were using was called " Kynoch" lethal Ball.
Now , last year l DO recall reading an issue of " Field and stream " , where a gentleman used a 12 gauge Over Under Shotgun loading with 3 inch Magnum slug shells to kill an African Cape buffalo. He needed 3 shots to do it and found that the first two were broken inside the buffalo without penetrating the heart. I don't remember where the third shot hit the buffalo. It was either a neck shot or a third heart shot , which also had the slug break. But this time, the slug did have a fragment of it reach the Buffalo's heart. I will try to find the article and post it here

 

[Red Leg]

A PH "Leopard Man" expert I spoke with told me of another PH that used an SKS. I thought it was brilliant. No recoil, semi-automatic, and the spike bayonet extended for last line of defense if the leopard lunges at you.

Pretty slick follow-up PH gun for a leopard.

I don't know - the SKS is pretty lousy at putting a man down quickly - can't imagine using it or any similar caliber semi-auto as a follow up rifle. No matter how fast you could toggle it, you would be lucky to get one shot in - I would want something, almost anything, bigger.

 

[Red Leg]

In terms of historical precedent , it has also been a very ill advised tactic. From my reading , the following people had THIS to say about shotgun slugs :
1) John Pondoro Taylor mentions that in Ceylon , the men who made the largest bags of Elephant ( 1200 and 1500 , respectively ) used nothing but ordinary Smoothbore BREECH-LOADING shotguns of 12 and 16 gauge with the barrels cut down to 24 inches for general handiness. They used ordinary spherical lead balls . However , he also goes on to note that Ceylon Elephants were far easier to kill than African Elephant and that these weapons would never work in Africa.
2) Kenneth Anderson , in his book " Nine Man eaters and One rogue " makes mention of 6 different men who tried to use 12 gauge side by side shotguns loaded with slugs on Royal Bengal Tigers . Out of those six, some of them were killed. Some were horribly mauled. But NOT one actually succeeded in Bagging the tigers with the 12 gauge slugs. The slugs which they were using was called " Kynoch" lethal Ball.
Now , last year l DO recall reading an issue of " Field and stream " , where a gentleman used a 12 gauge Over Under Shotgun loading with 3 inch Magnum slug shells to kill an African Cape buffalo. He needed 3 shots to do it and found that the first two were broken inside the buffalo without penetrating the heart. I don't remember where the third shot hit the buffalo. It was either a neck shot or a third heart shot , which also had the slug break. But this time, the slug did have a fragment of it reach the Buffalo's heart. I will try to find the article and post it here

I would suspect lots of lions and tigers and things oh my were put down by British officers and colonials using paradox 12 bores at the start of the last century. My friend Tony Makris has killed buffalo with his Westley Richards 20 bore Fauneta (as well as his 12 bore paradox). Ross Sefried worked up the load and turned the bullets. Worked like a charm. But no, it would not be my first choice.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I would suspect lots of lions and tigers and things oh my were put down by British officers and colonials using paradox 12 bores at the start of the last century.

Of course , they did ! Paradox guns have far better penetration than a Smoothbore of the same caliber , Red Leg . The rifling made that possible. With a smooth bore , the slug begins to lose energy very quickly after it leaves the muzzle . Paradox guns have unrivalled penetration because of the rifling in the last two inches of the barrels which help stabilize the bullet.
A normal cylinder bored shotgun doesn't have that kind of rifling in it

 

[Red Leg]

Of course , they did ! Paradox guns have far better penetration than a Smoothbore of the same caliber , Red Leg . The rifling made that possible. With a smooth bore , the slug begins to lose energy very quickly after it leaves the muzzle

Six inches of very faint rifling does nothing for energy or penetration from a bore caliber gun - accuracy yes - energy not so much. However, like many modern slugs, the paradox fires a conical which would penetrate far better than a round ball in the same caliber. It would also have significantly more mass and momentum than a round ball - both of which aid penetration. But none of that has anything to do with smoothbore or rifling, though everything to do with design and weight of the projectile. Hence modern slugs, of the same weight as a paradox bullet, fired from a smoothbore at the same velocity would have similar penetration - not accuracy - but similar penetration.

The paradox is so effective because it puts those big 740 gr bullets, at shotgun velocity, in exactly the spot the shooter aims.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Found it ! It was Mr. Bob who took a Cape Buffalo with a 12 gauge Over Under loaded with slugs

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Six inches of very faint rifling does nothing for energy or penetration from a bore caliber gun - accuracy yes - energy not so much. However, like many modern slugs, the paradox fires a conical which would penetrate far better than a round ball in the same caliber. It would also have significantly more mass and momentum than a round ball - both of which aid penetration. But none of that has anything to do with smoothbore or rifling, though everything to do with design and weight of the projectile. Hence modern slugs, of the same weight as a paradox bullet, fired from a smoothbore at the same velocity would have similar penetration - not accuracy - but similar penetration.

The paradox is so effective because it puts those big 740 gr bullets, at shotgun velocity, in exactly the spot the shooter aims.

Thanks for teaching me that, Red Leg I really appreciate learning something new every day. I guess l made the wrong speculation after reading a Holland and Holland Catalog which said that their 12 bore paradox guns had far greater penetration than a 12 bore cylinder gun loaded with " Ball ".

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks for teaching me that, Red Leg I really appreciate learning something new every day. I guess l made the wrong speculation after reading a Holland and Holland Catalog which said that their 12 bore paradox guns had far greater penetration than a 12 bore cylinder gun loaded with " Ball ".

Probably true - the paradox bullet is typically 25 -30% heavier than the typical non-magnum slug fired from a shotgun. That is significantly more momentum on target.

 

[larry4831]

I don’t see why a slug wouldn’t work on a lion. They stop thousand pound grizzly bears up here in Alaska.