SHOTGUN: o/u or pump?

[Ray B]

For years I considered the O/U, in particular the Browning Superposed to be the ideal shotgun. I considered the SxS to be too old fashioned. Then I had the opportunity to shoot a Winchester M21 and a Parker DHE. I have changed my opinion, and now consider the SxS equal to the O/U. the primary drawback to these guns is that the thin barrels are not made for steel shot. If you are required to use steel shot then I'd go with the pump, but if you can use either lead or the softer No-Tox shot then I'd go with a break action.

 

[mark-hunter]

The thread start is quite old, but the topic is still alive!
Let me add some European perspective.

Side by side, will be more appreciated in some group hunts as a gentlemans choice.

Field of view with parallel side by side barrels will be less, then when compared to over/under shotgun.

Next, the recoil on side by side will be equal and in opposite direction then when compared to over / under type, making more challange to shooter for second shot.

Being a gentlemans choice in sport wing shooting, it is informally more appreciated with smaller gauges then bigger ones. Like 16, 20, 28.
This will bring more edge, to the skill of sporting shooter.

Side by side, with small gauge sends a message of skilled gentleman of taste and ethics in the field.

Gauge 12, O/U, of course is more effective, and easier to handle, like b 25, browning, designed as working mans gun, but used today by hunters from all social backgrounds.

Likewise, over unders, have better field of view, aiming over rib on top barrel. Easier.
They have better control on following shot as the first shot is usually made by lower barrel, which has lower center of gravity, closer to stock.

So firing first lower barrel, will make easier aiming for next shot, for smaller recoil, and better field of view - so faster will be the target acquisition, and when compared to side by side, this gives advantage to shooter.

For steel or lead shot, there are modern made shotguns proofed and certified for steel shot O/U ans S/S.

When comparing O/U with pump action, I would say it will depend on use.
In open fields, where distance is variable - two different chokes (and patterns) of OU will be more versatile, for closer birds lower barrel, and for more distant away flying birds upper barrel will be used.

Lower barrel is usually less choked, and upper barrel more choked.

This option can not be achieved in pump action, even if it is fitted with interchangeable chokes. How ever if it is estimated that closest game will be shot first, and more distant will be shot later, then it can be corrected by careful choice of cartridges (and sequence of loading), under the condition that second and following shot will be on game running (or flying) away which is not always the case.

However, pump actions may have some advantage with more fire power, in dense bush when searching for a game such as hogs, boars using slugs, buckshot, where the distance of shooting is reduced, and where longer shots are not expected. Another advantage, on extreme long range shots with maximum choke, for flying geese. In that case, close range shot is not ideal.

 

[D.M.V]

Remington 870. Working man's shotgun. Wanna spend a few more bucks and go fancy get the wingmaster model. Parts will never be a problem. Reliable. Nice looking. Many aftermarket upgrades. Right price

 

[Newboomer]

You guys make interesting and valid points on all sides. You have given me a lot more insight into the two shotguns I am stuck on.

Here's my take:

The o/u is a classy, fashionable, and reliable weapon in terms of accuracy, safety, and 'feel', and also it has the capcity to send a follow up shot just like a heavy double rifle would on a charging cat
-quicker than a pump or bolt- but after the second barrel is empty I better have my wits about me if my quarry is not permanently down because i've seen clips and heard stories where even the most professional and harderned hunters become frozen under that kind of duress and fumble around with the thumb-sized cartridges while smelling the breath of a pissed off cat!

The o/u is safer in that you can assess whether there is a round in the chamber quite quickly, and you can walk around with it neck-broken to avoid accidents (and it just looks good). Its a classic and i'm a hopeless romantic when it comes to stuff like that (If I had it my may I would go hunting in white and creme -coloured tennis attire with the tennis shoes and sporting top-hat with an Obendorff .416Rigby by my side just like in Harry Selby's time!!!) So the o/u is as practical as what it is 'romantic' and 'acceptable' by certain communities. But i'm not looking to join the elite and specialised wingshooting community just yet. I would love that and I know what saprof is talking about, but my intentions with my shotgun go further than being accepted in a wingshooting community. One day if I can afford a good o/u Beretta then I will buy it and take up wingshooting and clay-pigeon as a sport seperate from my 'PH/Agent' career (fingers crossed). I also already have applied for a .44spl with 4" barrel for self-defense so that's sorted. I cannot apply for anymore self-defense weapons.

I am doing a PH course this year as well as opening an agency (not a hunting outfit, an agency), so I intend to do rough work with my shotgun and not care too much about being an active wingshooting client. I intend to use the shotgun just as a backup on wounded cats etc, bushpig/bushbuck hunting (thick bush hunting), and the occasional wingshooting but nothing more than occasional wingshooting at places where its 'ok' to use a riot-gun.

Saprof, I agree with you on what you have said...things just are the way they are here in SA, when it comes to wingshooting it's very "British", but it's not like that all over, infact as far as I know those communities are more specialised than what they are all-over SA, its just like that in those clubs/outfits you are talking about. And I don't want to become a wingshooter only so an o/u for those reasons are great, but will it benefit me like the others have said...by having more in the tube when facing a wounded cat or bushpig? Your other points make a lot of sense too and i'm not sold on the pump action just yet, it's only that from the beginning I was leaning more towards the pump anyway. Your info is very enlightening. But, having said that, I couldn't care less if people laugh me out of the wingshooting club or if I don't get invited back, because it's not my intention to shoot birds in a specialised way. I may book clients there or refer people to those places/outfits, but for the purposes of my career my shotgun needs to surpass the specialist needs of the wingshooting clubs. And the pump is looking better for general use than an o/u, not to say that either is better overall. Regarding the SAPS; it's difficult to get any weapon, but saprof you are right, applying for a semi-auto is dicy if one does not have GOOD motivation plus the required dedicated shooters status (to own more ethan one etc) plus plus plus... but I think to apply for just one working pump action with good motivation will be as hard to get as any rifle, I undersatnd the dynamics and history of our country and when people here SEMI-AUTO they think very carfefully about whose going to be holding that semi-auto...and why they want a semi-auto and not a single barrel etc.

From Newboomer: Go with a good Remington 870 pump in 3" 12 guage. They have been around forever and have sold more than any other make or model. I have an old one that has seen thousands of everything through it and never a hiccup. They are utterly reliable and you can get several barrels and chokes. I've rigged mine for 3 gun with an extended mag tube which gives me 8 rds., a butt cuff that holds 6, and a sidesaddle for 6 more for a total of 20 rds on board.

It has been proven that a good pump gunner can shoot faster than a semi--I've done it with my old 870. Sounds like the best option for you as a PH in need of a reliable backup.

 

[Velo Dog]

If the originator of this thread is still looking for the best suited-to-his-life-style type of shotgun ........ after four years, it's not very likely I suppose - not sure he is even still a member here anymore.
But if I am wrong or perhaps, someone else might have a similar dilemma:
Since he said he wanted a shotgun primarily for as he put it "birding, bush pig, etc.", I definitely would suggest a drilling.
For what little taste I have, I would prefer a side by side 12 bore, over a 9.3x74R caliber, with one shot barrel true cylinder, with the other full choke.
(This is in spite of the O.P.'s wanting to avoid the side by side type shotgun design).

 

[Paparock94]

I have only used Pump, Single Shot and semi-Auto Shotguns. I personally have an affinity for the pump action shotguns. It may be just because I have spent the most time in the field with them but I love them. I have a custom shop 12 gauge Ithaca Deerslayer III from the Original New York factory sitting in a hard case behind my as I type this. It is the one with the grey laminated wood stock and pakariked fully rifled bull barrel. Pic of my Ithaca Deerslayer III attached below.

I spent many a day growing up with a Remington 410 pump with a full choke in the squirrel woods of Southern Arkansas. That little shotgun accounted for more squirrels than my fathers Browning 12ga. semi-auto because I sent more time in the woods with it. I was death and destruction with that little fast handling gun. I can only imagine what I could have done with a 20ga.. LOL

Someone who is really in tune with his pump in a hunting situation is right on the heals of the man with an auto yet he has the advantage of not having to worry about misfires as a pump is light years faster clearing them.

 

[rookhawk]

In answer to the question of the OP: neither. Ever.

Side by side thank you very much!

 

[Eric Anderson]

Hi hunters,

I need to make a decision as to which kind of shotgun I will be buying and ultimately using for the rest of my life.

In South Africa the gun laws are very tight and the gun application process is very stiff...so I need to make the right call this once.

I am in two minds about the type of shotgun I want to purchase. There is a pretty standard looking Beretta RS pump (5+1), good condition. And there are a couple of o/u in Midland etc with case ejectors, also good condition.

The purpose for the shotgun would be all-round use. Birding, bushpig etc...

What do you guys think or know about the performance of the pump and o/u? Which one will serve me better as an all-rounder? I would also love to think that it may come in handy in a sticky situation one day.

I just dont want a semi-auto because I've heard of (but never experienced) jamming problems at the wrong time, and the o/u is simply better than the s/s because of the design and accuracy. So I dont want a semi-auto or a s/s, but I will take any informed advice about the s/s and semi-auto too.

Pumps susceptible to short stroking at the worse possible time unless you practice a lot.

 

[jeanes]

Old thread but I'll throw my 2 cents worth in. I own and use both O/U and pump. The O/U, like saprof' s, is a Winchester 101 I bought in Wiesbaden in '72. The only gun that ever fit me perfectly off the rack. I love it. The pump is a Benelli Nova. Love it, too. For the original poster's stated uses, I'd go with the pump if I could have only one.

 

[fourfive8]

Having had and hunted with various shotguns since 9, about 60 years worth, I have made a full circle. I got caught up the O/U thing early one and had my first when I could afford it. I have owned, shot and sold many. Along the way have owned pumps, single break opens, semi autos and SxS of various types. Right now for wing shooting my first choice, hands down, would be a 20ga SxS. Second choice would be a high quality semi auto. And I'd be perfectly happy bird hunting from now on, just as I started out, with a 16ga hammered single break open.

 

[Ray B]

I recall the mid-60s when the gunwriters were pushing the single sight plane as their way of saying O/Us as well as pump/Autos were superior to SxSs and to an impressionable teen ager it seemed to make sense- after all, would a gunwriter Lie? Well, I'm no longer impressionable and yes, they do lie. Anymore, I find that the Browning Superposed holds its position in the safe and the 0 frame Parker gets the hunts.

 

[Dr Ray]

The problem with pump action is that they somewhat lack canning power with a stick case and with noise of cycling, I’m sure the animal would need to be deaf!

 

[rookhawk]

I see this thread at the top of the list every visit and I cringe, wrought with inner turmoil.

The argument might be which is better, a SxS or an O/U (answer: SxS) but the pump is not in the same circle for a dozen reasons.

Strong but true statement: You missed on the first shot, you missed on the second, so now you think your pump is going to seal the deal on the third? I think not. Its just about bubba-throwing more lead down field. Third shot success rates have to be around <1%.

The POINT of the double barrel was completely missed. A double barrel was made with TWO triggers and TWO chokes. It was so that you could instantaneously lift the gun up and take the appropriate shot, the open close choke, or the distant far choke. It was meant to take one bird in one shot better than other options. Alternatively, if a pair got up you'd kill the first one at 20 yards with the first trigger and then shoot the second now at 32 yards with the second trigger. It was gentlemanly refinement where form met function.

Since very few O/U come with double triggers, and fewer yet follow greener's rule of 96, the solution is nearly always a SxS for those that understand the purpose and intent of their components. By and large the O/U of today is like the ford focus with a rear spoiler...it has cosmetic features that seem appealing but their actual purpose has been lost by other design characteristics.

Let me see if I can throw a few more data points:

-I've never spent a day in the field with people owning autoloaders and pumps where someone didn't point a muzzle in my direction...you cannot break a gun open and carry it properly.

-You can't tell when a pump or auto is loaded as an observer

-You can't use two shell loads at the same time and make an instant decision which you'll use for the situation.

-You cannot reload a pump or auto as fast as a SxS

-SxS guns kick less. They usually shoot softer loads (short chambers) with demonstrably better patterns and less shot string.

-Most SxS guns go up in value.

-Most SxS guns are $20,000 guns when new in today's dollars, even if you buy a 75 year old one for $800. The pump of today is still worth $125 and the pawn shop and it only was a $300 piece of craftsmanship when new.

-Tang safeties are must faster and less likely to be bumped to unsafe accidentally.

-Gun fit on a SxS is usually superior because the stocks are not hollow with through bolts.

-SxS guns crack stocks less often because they are not hollow with through bolts.

-SxS and O/U guns can be fed any shell and they will load shorter shells with less recoil without jamming. pumps and autos jam on all kinds of ammo if not the right length or recoil intensity.

-SxS pack smaller so you can carry them easier.

-SxS and O/U are easier to clean.

-SxS and O/U have less moving parts to break.

In conclusion, no, not a pump. Not ever. Glad I got this thread off my chest.

 

[wesheltonj]

@rookhawk, I have two Winchester pumps (12 & 20) in my closet that belonged to my father-in-law that my wife wants sold and I am not a pump fan either and should sell them, but have a difficult time selling guns but they are not mine. Not so much buying them. However, I will keep my father Sears pump shotgun when he passes away.

Interestingly, my grandfathers, and now mine, old Parker Trojan 12g, is a double trigger with a pistol grip, one would expect a English stock with double triggers.. I am getting ready to purchase a Beretta Silver Hawk 20g with single trigger and English stock that's for sale here. It would appear that both my doubles will be backwards. Never the less my "dream gun" is a Browning B15 O/U in 20g. @mark-hunter And if a Browning B25 is a working mans gun, please tell me where I can get a job that pays that kind of salary.

That said, still prefer an Autoloader, it get the job done.

Video of B25:

 

[rookhawk]

@wesheltonj A silverhawk is a serviceable shotgun with a decent single trigger system, so you're not buying a lemon by going that route. Also, they usually have removable beretta chokes and are most often steel shot compatible. They also have the fastest barrel selector of any single trigger system with it featured on the tang safety. One could do worse.

I think your parker trojan is a better gun on every level though, and if you've not yet shot a silverhawk you'll immediately notice they are heavy and the fit is not lively due to the through-bolt design that necessitates a thick piece of timber attached to the receiver. Not ripping on the silverhawk, just suggesting that the things you love about your parker may not be present in the silverhawk depending on your requirements.

 

[wesheltonj]

@wesheltonj A silverhawk is a serviceable shotgun with a decent single trigger system, so you're not buying a lemon by going that route. Also, they usually have removable beretta chokes and are most often steel shot compatible. They also have the fastest barrel selector of any single trigger system with it featured on the tang safety. One could do worse.

I think your parker trojan is a better gun on every level though, and if you've not yet shot a silverhawk you'll immediately notice they are heavy and the fit is not lively due to the through-bolt design that necessitates a thick piece of timber attached to the receiver. Not ripping on the silverhawk, just suggesting that the things you love about your parker may not be present in the silverhawk depending on your requirements.

I can alway hold it unfired in the box and if still employed after November, buy another Parker and sell the Beretta.

 

[Ray B]

I'm not familiar with the Berettas or newer Brownings, but here are my old guns- as noted previously, the superposed spends most of it's time in the rack while the Parker gets to go hunting. As I recall there's less than a half pound difference in weight, but there's a world of difference in the shooting.

I might need to try the inserting of photo again.

 

[Ray B]

 

[4 Bore]

Get the Over Under. My shotgun is a 12 Bore Beretta (2.75 inch chamber ) with fixed chokes ( upper barrel modified choke , lower barrel Full choked ) . It was the very first gun l ever got ; gifted to me by my grandfather . It's bagged ALL manners of birds and Rabbits in the last 8 years .
In Africa , having a double barrel is actually a very wise thing , since you can choose between two chokes instantly.
I would also recommend you look into the Fabarms Eso Paradox Over Under shotguns which have 3 inch Chambers . The upper barrel is a multi choke. The lower barrel is partially rifled ( Paradox Style ) which can shoot shot of any size like an improved cylinder , but can also fire a slug with more accuracy and range than a shotgun . The upper barrel can also fire a slug with the accuracy of a standard shotgun.

 

[Piet-Skiet]

Stay away from the SAPS issue berreta rs200. It is a POS. Also stay away from the new Remington 870s. Mine has given me hell. Get a Mossberg 500 or even better a Winchrster sxp. I love semis and shoot a berreta a400. Love that gun. Was hell getting a licence.