Shooting vs Hunting / A Growing Ethical Issue

[Wyfox]

Most long range hunters practice alot, hundreds of rounds a year. I personally shoot thousands of rounds a year. Everyones idea of what is too far is different. For a hunter in the midwest 400yds is ridiculous, for a hunter here in Wyoming thats a cake shot. Ethics is staying within your known comfort zone, this will be different for everyone. Lets be honest long range hunters shooting beyond 1000yds are a very very small percentage of the demographic.

I have a much bigger problem with the troves of hunters who boresight their rifles and call it good. Some may take 1-2 shots at the range before season and thats it. Sight in their rifle 10 years ago and never checked it since. Sight in their rifle with one ammo and hunt with another. This all boils down to ethics and knowledge and is much worse in my opinion than long range hunters but is never talked about.

The guy in the mentioned article was using a 50bmg on a Pronghorn at 2000yds and that happened in the county I live in. I do not agree with his decision but no laws were broken and he made a clean kill. I do like Idahos law limiting rifles to less than 16lbs. A 50bmg shouldn't be used for hunting game animals in my opinion but I'm not going to judge people if its legal.

As stated before hunters are our own worst enemies. We need to stick together as long as it's LEGAL.

 

[Flbt]

But that is not the point I was making. You are either don't get it or are intentionally misrepresenting me.

What I am saying is that your selfish, egocentric nihilistic philosophy of "ethics cannot be adopted by a group" means there can never be a hunting community of interest that can protect and pursue good policy for hunters overall. Your approach virtually assures government regulation because in your "I a the center of the universe and won't compromise" world there is never any informal enforcement mechanisms.

A community requires some compromise to find and promote common interests rather than your approach of "I don't agree so we can't adopt that."

It's not about my particular ethics or your particular ethics, it is about a common set of ethics that promotes and protects hunting for the good of the whole community in the face of very real perils. You might gain something, I might lose something but a common set of basic ethics works if it is good for the community as a whole. It's part of being mature and realizing the whole world doesn't rotate around oneself.

More laws to solve a problem should be a last resort. Informal community ethics and enforcement is the place to start with these types of problems.

But that’s it. A lot of hunters don’t compermise.
You have hunters that are anti hunters if you don’t hunt there way.
I have seen it with bear and dog hunting a lot.
I have seen one of our big wma get split into because of dog hunting vs stand hunting
The stand hunters did not like the dog hunting
They got it split in two. In the stand hunting part they even stopped stalk hunting. During season you were only allowed to go to a stand ,recover the animal and leave.
The dog side you could still stand or stalk hunt.
Well the permit quit selling as well so the state cut there payment to the timber company that sold use to the state.

Guess what they lease the whole thing to a dog hunting club. It’s right at 5k per member.
Worrying how some one else hunted took a bath wma off the books for all public.
It has happened more than once. I just know that one because my dad hunted there with his friends in the early 80
If I want my kid to hit where his grandpa did it will cast 10k.

There are states that don’t dog hunt there are states that don’t do drives
There are states that do.
Both sides say there point of view is ethical

No it’s not it can’t be. If ethnics have a meaning.
If the states with different laws are both ethical with completely different laws then ethics can not actually have a meaning.

Seriously if dog hunting is ethical in ga but you can’t in say New Mexico
It’s ethical in one place
But not in the other?
It’s the same thing. It either is ethical or not
The location should not change what is and what is not ethical.

 

[Flbt]

But that is not the point I was making. You are either don't get it or are intentionally misrepresenting me.

What I am saying is that your selfish, egocentric nihilistic philosophy of "ethics cannot be adopted by a group" means there can never be a hunting community of interest that can protect and pursue good policy for hunters overall. Your approach virtually assures government regulation because in your "I a the center of the universe and won't compromise" world there is never any informal enforcement mechanisms.

A community requires some compromise to find and promote common interests rather than your approach of "I don't agree so we can't adopt that."

It's not about my particular ethics or your particular ethics, it is about a common set of ethics that promotes and protects hunting for the good of the whole community in the face of very real perils. You might gain something, I might lose something but a common set of basic ethics works if it is good for the community as a whole. It's part of being mature and realizing the whole world doesn't rotate around oneself.

More laws to solve a problem should be a last resort. Informal community ethics and enforcement is the place to start with these types of problems.

I am being selfish? Because I want you to be able to hunt like you want to with in your area laws that are all ready on the books?

But your not. While wanting to forcing your beliefs ( that’s what ethnic are when it’s boils down)
On the whole hunting community?
Yea ok

 

[Flbt]

Islands, in some cases, can be considered a natural terrain feature that might restrict an animal's ability to escape. However, if the island itself does not create an unfair advantage (e.g., if the animal has a reasonable chance to swim away or is not trapped in a fence), then hunting on an island would likely be considered Fair Chase.

I can see that. We have big bags islands one I know of is it’s own wma.
But we also have small ones in rivers.
Some of them are small very small.
But yes the animals do have the option to swim.

 

[Flbt]

I think by that phrase he basically means a standard that hunters follow as a whole, de facto not de jure. And the “enforcement” being peer pressure. I could be wrong

Well if it’s peer pressure and telling someone you don’t like how there doing it.
I have no problem with that at all.

 

[Flbt]

What he means is that other hunters and shooters will enforce ethics on you whether you like it or not. If you are a game hog, unsafe with firearms, or just a horses rear end, you will be chastised, ostracized, and eventually uninvited from your local hunting club or shooting range.

Ok I can see that.
Do you like deer hunting with dogs is it unethical?
Say you and your hunting Comuity dose not.
Would you do all of the (enforced ethics) on hunters that do dog hunt?
There is a large community of dog hunters.
Why or would you think it’s your place to chastise and ect. To that group of hunters
When it’s been a tradition and comen practice for hundreds of years?

And if you did chastise and ect. What do you think there respond would be?

 

[R eight]

Would hunting island be the same as fenced?
That actually might need it’s on topic?
Idk

Are you talking Greenland size ? Maybe something a bit smaller? I guess the real question is how big is the island.

 

[Flbt]

Are you talking Greenland size ? Maybe something a bit smaller? I guess the real question is how big is the island.

If I remember right st. Vicente wma is 2 islands and about 12 thousand acers

Some of the small ones in the rivers might not make 2 acers and some I don’t know if they would be counted as islands I have had to help move river swamp cows and less than 5 min a horse would be across it.

 

[Scott CWO]

From your perspective has long range hunting stabilized or is there more interest and more push to shoot further from hunters each year?

I think long range hunting is growing but not the epidemic some have indicated. I still have lots of clients that bring a traditional Model 70 or Model 700 or Ruger M77 but definitely have some clients bringing “turret rifles” as I call them. I have mixed feelings about the subject. I prefer shots around 200 yards or less for non-dangerous game with clients and usually like to stay below 400 yards.

I have three guides that are former Green Beret SFOs and one ran the sniper school for the 7th SF Group. With his tutelage, I acquired and learned to shoot a 6.5 GAP SAUM on a Tuebor titanium action. It is a laser. I have shot it out to 1400 yards at targets. When hunting, I have only taken two longish shots with it and both were successful. I took a coyote at 550 yards with one shot. I also shot my Marco Polo ram with it at 550 yards because there was no way to get closer and it was the last afternoon of the last day.

There are some hunts and shots on which I can understand the careful use of such rifles but only by trained or coached people. Our outfit has taken three big bull elk by clients at 600 yards across a certain canyon that was otherwise impossible to hunt outside of the rut. With coaching and using our rifles, the clients didn’t lose any of those elk. In 2020, that canyon burned and is much easier to stalk in now so we haven’t had to shoot across it. The fire opened up the thick noisy brush and timber. We can sneak through it quietly now and prefer to get closer.

Once in a while, a client will suggest a long shot even when I see a way to get closer. I politely say we can get closer and don’t really leave it up for much discussion.

 

[trperk1]

I think long range hunting is growing but not the epidemic some have indicated. I still have lots of clients that bring a traditional Model 70 or Model 700 or Ruger M77 but definitely have some clients bringing “turret rifles” as I call them. I have mixed feelings about the subject. I prefer shots around 200 yards or less for non-dangerous game with clients and usually like to stay below 400 yards.

I have three guides that are former Green Beret SFOs and one ran the sniper school for the 7th SF Group. With his tutelage, I acquired and learned to shoot a 6.5 GAP SAUM on a Tuebor titanium action. It is a laser. I have shot it out to 1400 yards at targets. When hunting, I have only taken two longish shots with it and both were successful. I took a coyote at 550 yards with one shot. I also shot my Marco Polo ram with it at 550 yards because there was no way to get closer and it was the last afternoon of the last day.

There are some hunts and shots on which I can understand the careful use of such rifles but only by trained or coached people. Our outfit has taken three big bull elk by clients at 600 yards across a certain canyon that was otherwise impossible to hunt outside of the rut. With coaching and using our rifles, the clients didn’t lose any of those elk. In 2020, that canyon burned and is much easier to stalk in now so we haven’t had to shoot across it. The fire opened up the thick noisy brush and timber. We can sneak through it quietly now and prefer to get closer.

Once in a while, a client will suggest a long shot even when I see a way to get closer. I politely say we can get closer and don’t really leave it up for much discussion.

Best post on this thread. This is reasonable and in line with modern firearms capabilities of game and on paper.