Shooting vs Hunting / A Growing Ethical Issue

[Flbt]

Well hunting or shooting something within a game fenced area is same, same but different.

What is the definition of “game fenced “ ? Seems pretty straightforward…..

Below is a photo which was taken many years ago. I used to hunt/cull goats there. The area of the property was around 3000 acres and it was very steep. No roads, foot hunting only and it would have taken a good day and a half to walk the boundary. There wasn’t a strand of wire on the place. But it was fenced by a bloody great ocean.

When culling I could shoot in excess of a hundred a day. When I was hunting there I sometimes didn’t fire a shot.

So the questions are; was I hunting or shooting ? And was I being ethical?

Exactly I will take longer shots on crop damage permit than when I am hunting.
Not I don’t think everyone would say the shots on the permit is really long rang 500yds and that’s only with the 257w
300 yd is my limit for hinting and I use cartridge that to me really keep me in that
A 6.5 Grendel sited for 100 yd
A 6.5x55 sited for 200
358 win
None of them are long range.

I don’t call crop damage shooting hunting
But the state does.

 

[Flbt]

Well hunting or shooting something within a game fenced area is same, same but different.

What is the definition of “game fenced “ ? Seems pretty straightforward…..

Below is a photo which was taken many years ago. I used to hunt/cull goats there. The area of the property was around 3000 acres and it was very steep. No roads, foot hunting only and it would have taken a good day and a half to walk the boundary. There wasn’t a strand of wire on the place. But it was fenced by a bloody great ocean.

When culling I could shoot in excess of a hundred a day. When I was hunting there I sometimes didn’t fire a shot.

So the questions are; was I hunting or shooting ? And was I being ethical?

Would hunting island be the same as fenced?
That actually might need it’s on topic?
Idk

 

[Flbt]

This is actually a fair point. Us hunters tend to be our own worse enemy. Some will say hunting over bait is unethical and others will say hunting with hounds is unethical.

I think we all want to make an effective 1 shot kill, obviously being closer limits the variables that could go wrong. How that distance varies greatly on the person and conditions. It is a hard thing to regulate effectively.

I am all for no wounded game
But here the thing if someone takes a 2000 yds shot.
Does anyone think with less advanced equipment that that person will not still take a bad shot?

Poaching not ethical and not legal. Right?
How many poacher are got every year?
So now we can’t have a flashlight with us to get to the stand before dark?
Same exact thing when you talk of out law a scope because of turrets or power.


Look I like quail. I think our quail numbers are down
My ethics say don’t hunt quail.
And I don’t and don’t let them be hunted on my farm.
But that’s my ethics and my ethics all so tells me it’s not my business to tell you that you can’t hunt them on your palce.
My ethics also tells me I don’t need to run to a position to get all quail hunting stopped or make it where everyone has to hunt with a single shot

 

[375Fox]

Ok
But we have millions of acers of public land
Long shots at west not here in the east?
Ever sat on a 900 acer clear cut?
A 500 acer water melon feild?
Don’t think you can get much longer shooting than that with a hand carrying rifle?
Can you?
Even if you are in the middle of the field or clear cut
Straight line 250 acers is a long way off.
Limited tags are limited tags dosent matter if it’s for a game animal or a hunting zone the tags are limited
And we have 1 wma with limited tags on the animal and the hunt area it’s self Sambar deer.
When I could walk I put in the draw every year. Never got it.
Not once did I think there equipment needed to be limited or out of state people restricted
To where I had a better chance at the tag.
Happy for them that got it and hope I would get it the next time.

I don’t think you are going to get it. Nothing in Florida will compare to Wyoming. It’s a completely different environment you have no understanding of.

 

[Rafiki]

This thread has gone from an interesting to wildly ridiculous.

 

[Flbt]

Your comparisons to hunting deer and hogs in the SE US have no comparison to long range hunting in the western US. It’s displaying a very limited understanding of something beyond what you can see in your backyard. Hunting deer on small private plots of land in Florida doesn’t compare to elk or sheep on large tracts of public land in the west. It’s worth a discussion. The anyone can do anything they want attitude decimated wildlife populations in the US prior to laws being implemented. Regulations are put in place for a variety of reasons.

The decimation of our game. That could easily be a topic of its on.

My grandpa feed and let a doe stay on the farm for years before he would allow deer hunting because it had been so long with out seeing one after the depression accord to my dad.

I am glad we have general laws on that.
But was it sport hunting that killed off all the animals?
Or was it market hunting? A something I don’t think was hunting.

Like the buffalo hunters or buff killers.
That was more to control the Indians at the government’s behest
Along with helping the industrial revolution.
Leather belts made form the hide worked mechines of industry.
I would call killing not hunting.

Like what farmers and ranchers did to kill off all the big preadators that they could.

 

[Flbt]

I don’t think you are going to get it. Nothing in Florida will compare to Wyoming. It’s a completely different environment you have no understanding of.

I understand there there are different places with a completely different land type.
Long range is long range and limited tag draw is a limited tag draw.
But I do understand that gun laws and to a large extent hunting laws start in one place that might have need the but are quite often then spread around the whole country by the anti crowd or politicians.

I think you are telling me I don’t understand there and I really don’t I have only seen it on tv.
But if there limited tags and long range what we are talking about. Especially if it’s just wounded game we are concerned with. ( not being mad because I didn’t get the tag I wanted)
What difference does it make if the 2000 yds shot is on a deer at sea leave or a mule deer off the side of a mt.?
It’s still a game animal and a bad shot at 2000 yds is a wounded animal.

 

[Flbt]

I don’t think you are going to get it. Nothing in Florida will compare to Wyoming. It’s a completely different environment you have no understanding of.

Yep it’s a different environment but a 2000 yd bad shot is a 2000 yd bad shot
If we are talking the ethics of wounding game animals
If we are talking about tags yea I think there a big difference. If I don’t get a draw I don’t get mad about it.

 

[HankBuck]

Would hunting island be the same as fenced?
That actually might need it’s on topic?
Idk

@Flbt - interesting question “Island vs. Fence”? I would say “No” because a Fence is made and installed by Man vs. an Island which is occurring Naturally. Then there are other considerations: Was the game on the Island “native” to that Island or introduced? How big is the Island - Staten Island? Hawaii ? Or 100 acres???
I’ve Never hunted any fenced in area and have no interest but a large island with Native animals is fine by me. Other Hunters have different interests, ie: If I was Hunting in China, and got close to the “Great Wall” — is it still Free Range Hunting?

 

[Scott CWO]

@Scott CWO - NO, I am Not against Hunter Education but I credit that Hunter Orange has been the largest reason for the reduction in Hunters accidentally being mistaken for game animals. You mention some States require “only a Hat” - that’s All that’s needed, an Orange hat can be seen 1/2 a mile away, the Hat is also often the “first part of a person cresting a hill top - coming into view first”. Hunter Education is fine and especially for those coming from a family that does Not hunt or has no friends that hunt - it can be very helpful….but it doesn’t keep you from being mistaken for a Deer as well as wearing ORANGE. I’ve hunted NM, WY, MT, KS, OK, IL —- I believe All required Orange and some States require a ridiculous amount (hat, vest, underwear, condom etc..). I hate the look of all that orange - hurts my eyes - but can’t deny it helps make a Hunter visible without hurting his chances at getting a deer, bear, moose, elk etc.. Although I know from talking with Game Wardens they love Orange because they can See Hunters easier and check them for violations, no license, wrong zone etc.. In NJ they love writting tickets and getting fines from “faded orange” etc.. I would leave it at this: Wearing Orange certainly Helps Not getting Shot.

Orange definitely helps but out West in our big wide open spaces it was mostly hunters shooting themselves and companions, sometimes in trucks, or walking together. Young people who don’t grow up in a hunting or shooting family are not very safe with muzzle direction and fingers on triggers. In Colorado, orange is not required for rifle sheep and mountain goat hunts. Arizona doesn’t require orange for any hunts.

 

[Altitude sickness]

@Flbt - interesting question “Island vs. Fence”? I would say “No” because a Fence is made and installed by Man vs. an Island which is occurring Naturally. Then there are other considerations: Was the game on the Island “native” to that Island or introduced? How big is the Island - Staten Island? Hawaii ? Or 100 acres???
I’ve Never hunted any fenced in area and have no interest but a large island with Native animals is fine by me. Other Hunters have different interests, ie: If I was Hunting in China, and got close to the “Great Wall” — is it still Free Range Hunting?

@Flbt - interesting question “Island vs. Fence”? I would say “No” because a Fence is made and installed by Man vs. an Island which is occurring Naturally. Then there are other considerations: Was the game on the Island “native” to that Island or introduced? How big is the Island - Staten Island? Hawaii ? Or 100 acres???
I’ve Never hunted any fenced in area and have no interest but a large island with Native animals is fine by me. Other Hunters have different interests, ie: If I was Hunting in China, and got close to the “Great Wall” — is it still Free Range Hunting?

Islands, in some cases, can be considered a natural terrain feature that might restrict an animal's ability to escape. However, if the island itself does not create an unfair advantage (e.g., if the animal has a reasonable chance to swim away or is not trapped in a fence), then hunting on an island would likely be considered Fair Chase.

 

[RLD]

Seriously you don’t see a problem some one telling others how they should hunt because it’s the way you hunt or want to hunt?

This a a real ? Not just arguing

Seriously do you think how you ethnicity hunt should be mandatory for everyone?

But that is not the point I was making. You are either don't get it or are intentionally misrepresenting me.

What I am saying is that your selfish, egocentric nihilistic philosophy of "ethics cannot be adopted by a group" means there can never be a hunting community of interest that can protect and pursue good policy for hunters overall. Your approach virtually assures government regulation because in your "I a the center of the universe and won't compromise" world there is never any informal enforcement mechanisms.

A community requires some compromise to find and promote common interests rather than your approach of "I don't agree so we can't adopt that."

It's not about my particular ethics or your particular ethics, it is about a common set of ethics that promotes and protects hunting for the good of the whole community in the face of very real perils. You might gain something, I might lose something but a common set of basic ethics works if it is good for the community as a whole. It's part of being mature and realizing the whole world doesn't rotate around oneself.

More laws to solve a problem should be a last resort. Informal community ethics and enforcement is the place to start with these types of problems.

 

[HankBuck]

But that is not the point I was making. You are either don't get it or are intentionally misrepresenting me.

What I am saying is that your selfish, egocentric nihilistic philosophy of "ethics cannot be adopted by a group" means there can never be a hunting community of interest that can protect and pursue good policy for hunters overall. Your approach virtually assures government regulation because in your "I a the center of the universe and won't compromise" world there is never any informal enforcement mechanisms.

A community requires some compromise to find and promote common interests rather than your approach of "I don't agree so we can't adopt that."

It's not about my particular ethics or your particular ethics, it is about a common set of ethics that promotes and protects hunting for the good of the whole community in the face of very real perils. You might gain something, I might lose something but a common set of basic ethics works if it is good for the community as a whole. It's part of being mature and realizing the whole world doesn't rotate around oneself.

More laws to solve a problem should be a last resort. Informal community ethics and enforcement is the place to start with these types of problems.

@RLD - after a careful read of your Post I still can’t make any sense of it.
In particular what is “informal community ethics and enforcement”??
There may be a “concept” in there somewhere but it rambles. I would not attempt to define or regulate “ethics” anymore then I would try to design One Religion for All to follow….Never gonna happen

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

@RLD - after a careful read of your Post I still can’t make any sense of it.
In particular what is “informal community ethics and enforcement”??
There may be a “concept” in there somewhere but it rambles. I would not attempt to define or regulate “ethics” anymore then I would try to design One Religion for All to follow….Never gonna happen

I think by that phrase he basically means a standard that hunters follow as a whole, de facto not de jure. And the “enforcement” being peer pressure. I could be wrong

 

[MS 9x56]

I once corrected a friends son when I noticed his finger on the trigger as we were walking through a thicket. I explained to him that you should never put your finger on the trigger until game is sighted and a shot is imminent. I took the time to show him where to put his finger on the outside on the trigger gaurd while carrying my friend thanked me for taking the time to show his son the correct manner. Later that same trip I again saw him with his finer on the trigger. I walked over and whispered to him that if I saw his finger on the trigger before he was ready to shoot again, his season would be over. Never had to correct the young man again.

 

[HankBuck]

I think by that phrase he basically means a standard that hunters follow as a whole, de facto not de jure. And the “enforcement” being peer pressure. I could be wrong

@Wishfulthinker580 - thanks, you must be “clairvoyant” and wise beyond my comprehension… I’m gonna have to go back and read more of your posts so that I can “Up my IQ” and keep up with others on AH (I think I’m falling behind).

 

[RLD]

I think by that phrase he basically means a standard that hunters follow as a whole, de facto not de jure. And the “enforcement” being peer pressure. I could be wrong

Exactly.

Communities of interest police their own through various mechanisms depending on the community. Stuff like shame, public disgrace, mocking, instructing, mentring, ostracization are traditional ones you see in less formal communities. And it builds from there to more formal structures in the right environment.

Let me give an example. In Ontario lawyers are a self governing profession. We recognize that when individuals lawyers do "bad shit" it hurts the whole profession and everyone in it. Depending on what that bad shit is we have different means of dealing with it that don't involve the government regulating something in a ham handed manner. Sports, religious groups, neighbourhood organizations, all do the same thing. It's really part of making communities functional.

Same thing for hunters. When individual "hunters" do things that are bad for the community as a whole I don't think it is wise to just sit back and say "to each their own." It's a naive perspective.

I think hunters and the hunting community need to act in the same way. If we don't police ourselves, someone else will do it for us, and I suspect we won't like the results.

 

[skydiver386]

@RLD - after a careful read of your Post I still can’t make any sense of it.
In particular what is “informal community ethics and enforcement”??
There may be a “concept” in there somewhere but it rambles. I would not attempt to define or regulate “ethics” anymore then I would try to design One Religion for All to follow….Never gonna happen

What he means is that other hunters and shooters will enforce ethics on you whether you like it or not. If you are a game hog, unsafe with firearms, or just a horses rear end, you will be chastised, ostracized, and eventually uninvited from your local hunting club or shooting range.

 

[Westerner1939]

As previously mentioned but a key note worth driving home, influencers and youtube hunters have WILDLY overstated the practical distances in which one will generally encounter game at, specifically when talking about hunting western big game but I’m sure many a green young east coast hunter has fell victim to this trope as well. I’ve hunted the western part of the United States my whole life and have never had to take a shot at any animal beyond 400 yards, not that I believe in arbitrary distances creating a threshold for when one crosses into “long range hunting” but it is my belief it’s somewhere just beyond the MPBR of most modern cartridges.
Often times in videos and discussions there is little if any emphasis on the “stalk”’ portion of “spot and stalk” . This agenda has obviously been pushed in order to bolster the market for the latest greatest gear for financial incentives. I watched a video a few months ago when there was a lot of chatter about the new 7mm back country, I don’t remember what they were hunting but they were trying to showcase the cartridges performance. The individual holding the rifle said “we’ve had several opportunities on game but none were far enough away”. That statement goes completely against the Boon and Crockett’s stance on what dictates ethical hunting distances.
“The Boone and Crockett Club believes the term “long-range” shooting is more defined by a hunter’s intent, than any specific distance at which a shot is taken. If the intent of the individual is to test equipment and determine how far one can shoot to hit a live target and if there is no motivation to risk engagement with the animal being hunted, this practice is not hunting and should not be accorded the same status as hunting.”

I don’t believe the government should have any involvement in this matter, nor am I to talk anymore out of deciding to purchase whatever gear they feel necessary to be successful with, or even what distances they should be hunting at. A flood of new generation hunters are consuming this content and idolizing many of the influential creators in the hunting space. The older generations know this but more discussion should be had and awareness brought to the notion that distances in which are typically acknowledged as “long range hunting” are the exception, not the rule, no matter where you’re hunting geographically. Nor should one should one be engaging in “long range hunting” just for the sake of doing so.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

@Wishfulthinker580 - thanks, you must be “clairvoyant” and wise beyond my comprehension… I’m gonna have to go back and read more of your posts so that I can “Up my IQ” and keep up with others on AH (I think I’m falling behind).

Aw shucks.. I assure you I’m nothing special haha