Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target

[buckstix]

Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target

I'm bound to create some controversy with this post, but I've been doing this for 3 years. Black powder and black powder substitutes are not to my liking. Those have too much mess and too much to clean-up afterwards. By studying low pressure smokeless loads in my Nitro-for-Black double rifles, I've come up with a smokeless load for my Remington UML. THIS POST IS TO TELL WHAT I HAVE DONE AND NOT TO RECOMMEND OTHERS TO TRY THIS - This is the ONLY model muzzle loading rifle that I would dare to try to use smokeless powder. The Remington 700 UML is a true 700 action with a special barrel and breech. (see pics) The UML is so much like a conventional Model 700 that BATF requires it has to be purchased through a Licensed Federal Firearms Dealer, just like a regular modern centerfire rifle. Unfortunately the UML has been discontinued and those on the used market are going for about double their original retail price.

My loading procedure is as follows ..... I pour 38g of AA5744 down the barrel - then I push the "sabot only" down the barrel, seating it HARD in one continuous stroke - then I drop the bullet down the barrel and seat it into the sabot with 8 firm raps - finally, I insert the Remington special primed brass case into the chamber. By seating the sabot separately, without the bullet, its much easier to load than trying to force the sabot with the bullet inside down the barrel. I consider 38g of AA5744 safe and MAXIMUM in my rifle. At just over 1900 fps its a good load for my area. It covers zero to 200 yards which is the maximum range for hunting whitetail deer on my hunting land. My rifle is sighted 4-1/4" high at 100yds, which is 4-1/4" low at 200yds. So zero to 200yds I aim at the top of the heart. (at 225 yards, the bullet would strike about 9 inches below aiming point)

With the rifle sighted dead-on at 170 yards, the target below shows a 3/4" 3-shot group at 100 yards. (bullets strike above center aiming) The measured velocity was 1908fps average. (sd was 7fps) - Velocities were measured using a Garman Xero C1 Doopler Radar Chronograph - velocity accurate to with 0.10 fps. The 3 circles below center show the expected impact at 200 yards.


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/50muz-info.jpg

 

[Uncontrolled_round_feed]

There comes a point where people who don’t really like the essence of muzzleloaders should probably just use a centerfire rifle. My 2c

 

[buckstix]

I agree, but if you want to hunt in a Muzzle Loading Only Season, and don't like the mess and clean-up of black powder, you have to improvise.

 

[Josh P]

I agree, but if you want to hunt in a Muzzle Loading Only Season, and don't like the mess and clean-up of black powder, you have to improvise.

Which violates the spirit of the season. It’s the same as able bodied (I’d argue anyone though) hunters using a scoped crossbow in archery season. They’re imposed limits for a reason.

I’m all for innovation in hunting methods, but not at the expense of the seasons. Good work with your gun though. Enjoy it.

 

[buckstix]

As long as its within the State Law, I have no issue. Here in Wisconsin, crossbows with scopes are also legal, as are scoped muzzle loaders using smokeless powder.

 

[skydiver386]

I've had several Savage ML rifle's that are specifically built to use smokeless powder, but always loaded on the conservative side of the load tables. In my experience, accuracy wasn't to be found at the max end of things, so there wasn't any reason to push the limits.

Whether it's race cars or rifles, when you max things out, sooner or later you'll run into trouble.

 

[RGRCD]

I have a Savage ML and a NULA ML that both shoot smokeless. I love using a single shot rifle and often carry the NULA during firearm season in Maine.

 

[Josh P]

It’s ridiculously, almost prohibitively, expensive right now from retailers, but have you had any luck with Blackhorn 209? I’ve had reports from customers when I worked retail that it was a fantastic powder and made cleanup a breeze.

 

[buckstix]

Blackhorn 209, like other black powder substitutes, requires diligent cleaning after use, or else the remaining residue will absorb moisture, and severely rust the bore.

 

[Hogpatrol]

There are dedicated smokeless muzzleloader actions available on the market. Put a purpose built centerfire barrel on one and you're good to go. I've built them on the Savage smokeless ML action, a Remington action and a Mesa action. All are safe and relatively no guesswork. For anyone contemplating the latter is available from:

Muzzleloader Action % - Pure Precision

The SUMMIT MUZZLELOADER ACTION has all the same great features as the SUMMIT centerfire actions but is designed specifically for long range muzzleloaders. The first main change is the slotted bolt face that was created to use priming modules from Hankins Precision and Arrowhead rifles. The slot...

pureprecision.com

 

[buckstix]

There are dedicated smokeless muzzleloader actions available on the market. Put a purpose built centerfire barrel on one and you're good to go.

Yes, but those are pushing an additional $1,000 cost. Mine is working fine at no extra cost.

 

[Mike70560]

@buckstix

You like that 5744! I remember years back one of the your first post that I read was about reduced loads with 5744 and I commented not to use fillers with it, which at the time was conventional "wisdom", even was noted in literature from the manufacturer. You corrected several of us about the filler and I realized the experience you have, which seems to be vast. The 5744 has worked well in my 470 Nitro playing around with testing bullets at lower velocities.

Interesting setup for the muzzleloader, not for everybody, but it surely seems to work.

 

[buckstix]

Yes, Western told me fillers were not needed with 5744. But, I found more uniform velocities using the backing rod foam to fill the air space and keep the powder in the bottom of the case - "when shooting double rifles" Without the backing rod filler, recoil shifts the powder forward in the second barrel's cartridge, so its ignition is different than that in the first barrel. In using 5744 with the Remington UML muzzle loader, the bullet with sabot are tight against the powder with no gap. The velocity sd of 7fps indicated very uniform ignition.

 

[TOBY458]

I used to load my Encore Muzzleloader with H4198 powder. I used a somewhat mild load that gave around 1700 fps with a 300gr 45cal saboted bullet. There was never a single issue with the loads I was using, but I always had a cautionary feeling in the back of my mind when doing so. I basically did this based on the practice of using 4198 powder as a black powder substitute in black powder cartridges and rifles.
When Blackhorn 209 came on the market, I began using it instead, and found it to be very close to smokeless powder, in regards to cleanliness and lack of fouling between shots. I found that I never had to clean the barrel in between shots, like is necessary with other black powder substitutes. That’s the powder I still use today and have been very happy with it.

 

[JimP]

I'm going to climb up on a soapbox for a while and state my opinion.

The way that some so called black powder rifles are along with what the states DWR are allowing on a "muzzle loader" hunt is getting ridiculous. Rifles shooting smokeless powder, sabot pistol or rifle bullets, scopes, and the rest of the modern products that actually belong on a high powered rifle. It is to the point that in some states it is way out of hand from what the intended "muzzle loader" seasons started out as.

I'll also say that I have taken advantage of the newer regulations. I have a scoped muzzle loader that I shoot sabot's out of. But I also enjoy my side lock that shoots "black powder" and a lead conical or round ball that I cast myself. I also enjoy the states where they do not allow any of the modern products that make the "muzzle loader" rifle more effective. I missed out on two huge mule deer, both over 200" on a muzzle loader hunt just because I was using open sights and a lead conical bullet. If I would of been allowed a scope even a 1x and had better bullets surrounded by a sabot one of those deer would of been dead.

In my mind if hunters want to use all these new products for their muzzle loaders then it should be used during a high powered rifle hunt and not a hunt that was originally designed for the front stuffers.

 

[buckstix]

Then perhaps there should also be a "Primitive Weapons" season. However, I feel that when the State Law allows better equipment for cleaner more humane kills, with less wounded game, I'll take every advantage.

 

[rookhawk]

There comes a point where people who don’t really like the essence of muzzleloaders should probably just use a centerfire rifle. My 2c

I don't like anything at all about muzzleloaders other than access to easier draw odds in western states. For that reason, I have a very ugly high tech ML that allows me to take rifle-accuracy shots out to the same maximum ethical shooting distances I'd be comfortable with a centerfire rifle.

The government has created a loophole and tens of thousands of people are driving a mack truck right through that loophole.

 

[rookhawk]

Shooting Smokeless Powder in my Remington 700 UML w/ target

I'm bound to create some controversy with this post, but I've been doing this for 3 years. Black powder and black powder substitutes are not to my liking. Those have too much mess and too much to clean-up afterwards. By studying low pressure smokeless loads in my Nitro-for-Black double rifles, I've come up with a smokeless load for my Remington UML. THIS POST IS TO TELL WHAT I HAVE DONE AND NOT TO RECOMMEND OTHERS TO TRY THIS - This is the ONLY model muzzle loading rifle that I would dare to try to use smokeless powder. The Remington 700 UML is a true 700 action with a special barrel and breech. (see pics) The UML is so much like a conventional Model 700 that BATF requires it has to be purchased through a Licensed Federal Firearms Dealer, just like a regular modern centerfire rifle. Unfortunately the UML has been discontinued and those on the used market are going for about double their original retail price.

My loading procedure is as follows ..... I pour 38g of AA5744 down the barrel - then I push the "sabot only" down the barrel, seating it HARD in one continuous stroke - then I drop the bullet down the barrel and seat it into the sabot with 8 firm raps - finally, I insert the Remington special primed brass case into the chamber. By seating the sabot separately, without the bullet, its much easier to load than trying to force the sabot with the bullet inside down the barrel. I consider 38g of AA5744 safe and MAXIMUM in my rifle. At just over 1900 fps its a good load for my area. It covers zero to 200 yards which is the maximum range for hunting whitetail deer on my hunting land. My rifle is sighted 4-1/4" high at 100yds, which is 4-1/4" low at 200yds. So zero to 200yds I aim at the top of the heart. (at 225 yards, the bullet would strike about 9 inches below aiming point)

With the rifle sighted dead-on at 170 yards, the target below shows a 3/4" 3-shot group at 100 yards. (bullets strike above center aiming) The measured velocity was 1908fps average. (sd was 7fps) - Velocities were measured using a Garman Xero C1 Doopler Radar Chronograph - velocity accurate to with 0.10 fps. The 3 circles below center show the expected impact at 200 yards.


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/50muz-info.jpg

View attachment 625847

I'd be mighty, mighty careful with your experiment and I'd check your breech plug after every 3-5 shots.

I have the same UML action on my custom ML and here is what I found.

1.) Even with BH209, it is unauthorized because the breech plugs get torch cut by the ignition. I upgraded my breach plug to mitigate this risk with BH209 but I still wouldn't' go to smokeless.

2.) There is no benefit to using smokeless in your rifle or mine. The 50 cal is not a particularly accurate bore dimension for a ML. You can get the same theoretical accuracy potential with BH209 with a lot less risk. If you want more accuracy than you can obtain (300-350 yards) with super-tuned bullets, powder, and ignition system mods in your 50 cal, just go to a 45 cal custom barrel build using your action and you'll hit 700 yard accuracy.

3.) The weak point in your setup for accuracy isn't the powder, its the poor ignition system that causes variation. Arrowhead rifles makes a custom ignition and primer system that allows you to use Federal 215 primers that will significantly improve your groups.

4.) Bullets really matter. If you can slug your bore, you can order bore riding Fury bullets pre-swaged to the optimal dimensions for your particular barrel. You'll halve the group size from this modification alone.

P.S. - If you want a good deal on supplies, PM me. I have loads of new brass for your ignition and lots of the accutip sabot bullets as well. I modified my ML to use other tech and no longer use them.

 

[buckstix]

Thank you for your kind offer. I'm happy with my 3/4" 100 yd groups and my maximum 200 yard shooting range, and at 7 fps standard deviation of velocity, I'm not expecting to need to improve performance. I only shoot about 7 or 8 shots per year, but I'll check my breech plug. I bought an extra breech plug in case I need it.

 

[gillettehunter]

Congratulations on your success. Great accuracy that allows you to kill big game animals cleanly. I understand the feelings some have about the modern muzzleloaders that are on the market. Believe me the game and fish departments are aware of it too.

If it’s legal then know people will take advantage of it. They will change the regs when and if they feel there’s a need. At this point safety is the only real concern. The OP seems to know what he’s doing.
Bruce