Scope for 458 LOtt

Thank you Michel,

I have read your comments about NIKON scopes in another forum.
I have a question, have you tried the NIKON MONARCH E or the same with other name? I am looking at a 1,5-6x42 Ret 4. These were made in 1-4x20, 1,5-6x42 and 2,5-10x50 / 56. All 30 mm tube.
Like the 1,5-6 general configuration.
Thank you.

CF
 
Yeah, I am afraid so........ From 2005 to 2014 we were doing some serious shooting here, 416-.620 caliber, most of it 458-500 caliber, to the tune of 8000+ rounds a year. This was load data, pressure data and bullet tech. Along with getting rifles ready to go to the field.

I am a scope shooter, always have been. What you have to have in a big bore Dangerous game scope is huge field of view.... at 10 steps you want to be able to see the entire body of lion, not a tan spot. Eye Relief and size of the scope is important since you are going to have to carry this around all day, unless you are the sort of chap that lets someone else carry your rifle.

I had always been a Leupold fan, and the 1.5 X5 Vari X and later VX3 was about the most perfect DG Big Bore scope you could get, it had the Field of View, eye Relief and it was small. Only one problem, it was horribly unreliable. We had 15 or so Leupold 1.5X5 we were using here on various Big Bores. It was very common to have 3-4 at Leupold for repairs, 3-4 on the bench to send to Leupold waiting on the other 3-4 to be returned. It was a constant circle of busted scopes. One day I took a brand new Leupold 1.5X5 VX out of the box, mounted it on a 50 B&M for some 50 yard accuracy work. Settled in at the bench, fired 1, then 2, then 3 rounds....... On the 3rd round fired I watched the scope explode inside and it went completely out of focus. Session done and over in 3 rounds.

This was hindering my productivity and taking a tremendous amount of time dismounting and remounting sight systems weekly, daily......I was spending more time doing this than getting any research done...... ENOUGH. I started looking for available alternatives. I bought 4-5 different scopes to see if any could replace all the attributes I required, #1 Field of View #2 Eye Relief #3 Size.

In this batch I bought a Nikon 1X4 African (at the time, buffalo on one of the caps). It had all the attributes I required, and the quality for me seemed even better than the Leupold. However I didn't care much for the larger turret it sported. I also had a 1" Trijicon that is now no longer made, it also had all the attributes, but about twice the cost. There were a few more, but none of them made the grade in quality, and other attributes.

I started shooting, figured for sure something would bust...... I kept shooting and after several weeks the Nikon was growing on me seriously. I bought another. I had them on the heavy kickers, 500 MDM and 50 B&M, all with high recoil impulse, that is devastating to scopes. Still no busted Nikons, I bought some more as the months went by, and was completely astounded that I had yet to have an issue..... ??? I was so used to dealing with busted scopes, I really was confused, after all the Nikon was actually less expensive than the Leupold, it is rare that you see that in these times, something less expensive out performing the more expensive model.

It was not long before I tried a few other Nikons larger scopes for smaller calibers....... and more Nikon 1X4 Africans........... Then Nikon decided the African was racist or some stupid shit, and just called them the Monarch, which was the top of the line Nikon scope series....... Still no issues at all with any Nikon, larger, smaller or in between.

Time to get rid of the Leupolds I had a big sell off, sold 35+ Leupolds of all shapes, sizes and what have you, 15 or so 1.5x5....... gone........ The only Leupold I kept was the Scout model, forward mount 2X. These I had never busted, and had one on a heavy kicking 510 Wells for years, and it is still on it. Other than those, the Leupolds hit the door....... and all were replaced with Nikons and then some.......

Nikon went woke a few years ago, ceased the entire line of rifle scopes. By this time I had enough 1X4 Nikons to last a lifetime and then some........ Fortunately. And to this day, 1000s on top of 1000s of big bore rounds fired, I have never ever not once busted or had any issue at all with the Nikon 1x4 African/Monarch....... Even the very first one that was on a 500 MDM, it is still on that gun.

The 1 inch Trijicon did well too, I still have it on a 458 and never had an issue. But now, seems all you can get is the 30mm Scopes, and I just do not like the size and weight of 30mm anything. It is true that most 30mm scopes are more robust and will hold up, but they definitely do not fit my # 3 factor of SIZE....... I have recently worked with two 30mm Trijicons, one is on 458 Lott and doing well so far, but it is big. The other was on a 458 Lott, and replaced by a spare Nikon 1X4 I had on hand.

I had several guys that wanted the 1X6 Swaro's on their 500 MDMs, and each and every single time the scope busted trying to sight it in. So I am not so much on those, and refuse to mess with them anymore.

I continue to look on occasion just to see if anything is out there, but have yet to find any real replacement for the loss of the Nikon. Even though I don't need any, if I run across one, I snatch it up, recently bought 3, two from a friend and one that was on Ebay........

If you shoot these Leupolds enough then you will sooner or later have the same experience. If you shoot your big bore 5 rounds a year, then it might last a little longer, but when you sit down for 200 rounds a week, then its a matter of time, and could be on that 3rd round fired from new in the box, busted............

A Leupold rep once told a friend of mine when questioned about the Nikons. His statement was That Leupold customers like to customize their scopes, and that Nikon "Glued" their reticles in place, and Leupold did not do that. I said..... better get the damn glue out....... But it was not so much the reticles that I was having issues with, it was focus and tracking...... They would just give up......and if you can't focus, you can't see, so what is the point.......Talk about shake rattle and roll when you take those off the gun, sounds like a baby rattler.......

DSCN2828-X2.jpg
Do you think the more modern leupold scopes have the same issues?
 
have you tried the NIKON MONARCH E or the same with other name? I am looking at a 1,5-6x42 Ret 4. These were made in 1-4x20, 1,5-6x42 and 2,5-10x50 / 56. All 30 mm tube.
No, I have not. My personal objection to 30mm would keep me from even looking at one. For me, 30mm is just too big/fat, heavy....... I have tried a few 30mm scopes and just cannot abide by one when compared in size/weight to 1 inch. Now, that is a personal thing and not an attack on 30mm scopes.

Try to make this a short story if possible.... During the time I was sending so many Leupolds back, I mentioned this to JD. JD being JD, knows everyone in the Industry, he touched base with a big wig at Leupold, extremely nice fellow, I forget his name now. Anyway, this fellow called me up one day. I explained the problems and issues I was having. He already knew much as I was very clearly in the Leupold system. He offered to replace ALL... Repeat ALL of my 1.5X5 Vari and VX with NEW 1X6 30mm scopes.... Now, at that time these 30mm scopes were going for $1200 each. The 1.5X5 $400. I told him I had around 15 of the 1.5X5!!!!!! He said it did not matter... offer stood. I told him how much I appreciated it, but I could not under good faith do such a thing, and not only that, I would not use and do not care for 30mm........... and we continued to speak. He insisted that I should at least try one to see if it would hold up. I finally relented to give one a go. In a few days it pitched up, I had already ordered 30mm rings (I don't keep them on hand) and mounted the big ass fat scope on a 18 inch 50 B&M. Well, it just looked STUPID and handled STUPID......... just too damn big and bulky for my taste. I sighted in without issue, and continued to shoot around 200 rounds over the next few weeks.......... I did not bust it, and it performed fine. I finally got tired of messing with it and sent it back with apologies and many thanks as well.

I am the same way with this new 30mm Trijicon I bought about a year ago.... its too big, I have it on a Custom Shop 22 inch 458 Lott, of course I will never go to the field with a gun such as that again, so its ok on it......

Do you think the more modern leupold scopes have the same issues?
The operative word in your question is "Think"........... I personally do think they would have exactly the same issues as before. Unless they came out with a statement that they have actually made a change in the construction and made them Big Bore Proof, I would not think there was two cents difference between todays scope and 10+ years ago......

I bought a new Leupold the same time as I did the 30mm Trijicon. I forget the model exactly, but loved the reticle, and OMG loved the size, I think it was a 1X4 something or other...... I was going to bust it, but decided I liked it a lot, and put it on a semi 358 MGP instead, decided I rather not bust it on a big bore... HEH........ It seems to be fine on that little gun........

I think that is the little Leupold shown above the Fat Boy..........

DSCN2826-X2.jpg



Here is "Fat Boy" on my 458 Lott.............

DSCN2937-X3.jpg


DSCN2945-X3.jpg


DSCN2940-X3.jpg
 
No, I have not. My personal objection to 30mm would keep me from even looking at one. For me, 30mm is just too big/fat, heavy....... I have tried a few 30mm scopes and just cannot abide by one when compared in size/weight to 1 inch. Now, that is a personal thing and not an attack on 30mm scopes.

Try to make this a short story if possible.... During the time I was sending so many Leupolds back, I mentioned this to JD. JD being JD, knows everyone in the Industry, he touched base with a big wig at Leupold, extremely nice fellow, I forget his name now. Anyway, this fellow called me up one day. I explained the problems and issues I was having. He already knew much as I was very clearly in the Leupold system. He offered to replace ALL... Repeat ALL of my 1.5X5 Vari and VX with NEW 1X6 30mm scopes.... Now, at that time these 30mm scopes were going for $1200 each. The 1.5X5 $400. I told him I had around 15 of the 1.5X5!!!!!! He said it did not matter... offer stood. I told him how much I appreciated it, but I could not under good faith do such a thing, and not only that, I would not use and do not care for 30mm........... and we continued to speak. He insisted that I should at least try one to see if it would hold up. I finally relented to give one a go. In a few days it pitched up, I had already ordered 30mm rings (I don't keep them on hand) and mounted the big ass fat scope on a 18 inch 50 B&M. Well, it just looked STUPID and handled STUPID......... just too damn big and bulky for my taste. I sighted in without issue, and continued to shoot around 200 rounds over the next few weeks.......... I did not bust it, and it performed fine. I finally got tired of messing with it and sent it back with apologies and many thanks as well.

I am the same way with this new 30mm Trijicon I bought about a year ago.... its too big, I have it on a Custom Shop 22 inch 458 Lott, of course I will never go to the field with a gun such as that again, so its ok on it......


The operative word in your question is "Think"........... I personally do think they would have exactly the same issues as before. Unless they came out with a statement that they have actually made a change in the construction and made them Big Bore Proof, I would not think there was two cents difference between todays scope and 10+ years ago......

I bought a new Leupold the same time as I did the 30mm Trijicon. I forget the model exactly, but loved the reticle, and OMG loved the size, I think it was a 1X4 something or other...... I was going to bust it, but decided I liked it a lot, and put it on a semi 358 MGP instead, decided I rather not bust it on a big bore... HEH........ It seems to be fine on that little gun........

I think that is the little Leupold shown above the Fat Boy..........

DSCN2826-X2.jpg



Here is "Fat Boy" on my 458 Lott.............

DSCN2937-X3.jpg


DSCN2945-X3.jpg


DSCN2940-X3.jpg
 
Thanks for all of the input. Lots of good in depth information here.
 
One problem with the 1-4 Trijicon accupoint is the 3.1 inch eye relief. Not a comfortable amount on a 458 Lott fot me. You have to go to the even bigger 1-6 Accupoint to get a 3.9 inch eye relief. I have this scope on my M70 in 416 and I just used it to make one shot stops on Kudu, Zebra and Cape Buffalo.

The size and weight don’t really bother me on a Model 70 but I would prefer something lighter on my Brno ZKK 602 in 458win/ Lott.

The Brno is significantly heavier than a Model 70 so a lighter scope would be helpful in carry weight and recoil resistance on a big Magnum mauser in 458 Lott.
 
The Leupold has great eye relief. When I mentioned weight... this is important. Most of the LPVO (low power variable optic) scopes are industrial grade and weigh a lot. These have been created to fill a niche in competition shooting. Great optics but put major recoil stress on mounting screws on powerful rifles. Since the Lott has soooo much recoil impulse, many of the scopes are just too heavy. I have put a one piece tactical base on one of my 416s that has a lip that abuts the receiver to take load off screws.
Interesting. I love the (heavy) S&B Exos 1-8 on a couple big boomers—including a Lott. No issues and I actually like the extra weight for recoil mitigation. I use Alaska Arms rings and (knock on beautifully finished wood) have had no issues with scope or mounting.
 
Agreed with thoughts about weight for recoil mitigation but anything that has more mass also has more inertia which means more force is exerted by recoil. No idea how that translates into stress on scope or scope parts but it has to in some degree but it does translate directly to the mounts. And 3.1" seems a little iffy to me for eye relief on heavy recoilers. 3.9-4.0", which seems standard on some scopes, offers peace of mind for when relaxing trying to squeeze off an accurate shot. One lapse of memory and bingo... ouch! Then it take a long time to cure the flinchitis with any firearm.
 
Agreed with thoughts about weight for recoil mitigation but anything that has more mass also has more inertia which means more force is exerted by recoil. No idea how that translates into stress on scope or scope parts but it has to in some degree but it does translate directly to the mounts. And 3.1" seems a little iffy to me for eye relief on heavy recoilers. 3.9-4.0", which seems standard on some scopes, offers peace of mind for when relaxing trying to squeeze off an accurate shot. One lapse of memory and bingo... ouch! Then it take a long time to cure the flinchitis with any firearm.
In CC mode, from memory, eye relief is 5”+. Noted on higher magnification.
 
Another good argument for red dots on some of the heavy kickers…unlimited eye relief.
 
Eyebrowed by a borrowed, wimpy 338WM in 1982. Took a long time to get over the flinch. Swore no more. The greater the eye relief the better. I even have the habit of cheating it longer on 375s and larger by mounting the scope out so a dark ring surrounds field of view at normal hold. That also has the benefit of removing all the parallax as the eye automatically centers the sight picture/reticle in the scope. I think the eye relief on all my larger rifle scopes is 4.9-5”
I have one 375 with a 4.1” eye relief scope and have it mounted cheated out to about 4.5”,
 
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Eyebrowed by a borrowed, wimpy 338WM in 1982. Took a long time to get over the flinch. Swore no more. The greater the eye relief the better. I even have the habit of cheating it longer on 375s and larger by mounting the scope out so a dark ring surrounds field of view at normal hold. That also has the benefit of removing all the parallax as the eye automatically centers the sight picture/reticle in the scope. I think the eye relief on all my larger rifle scopes is 4.9-5”
I have one 375 with a 4.1” eye relief scope and have it mounted cheated out to about 4.5”,
I just found and bought one of the Nikon 1-4 scopes with a 4A reticle. Will be mounting it on the 458 Lott. It may take a while because I'm having two crossbolts installed as well as bedding and smoothing the action for field work.

Should be ready for dangerous game upon completion.
 
I’m looking at a Nikon M-223 1-4x20 scope but I’m guessing that it’s not the same and trying to change out those stupid ass ballistic turrets may be a bigger has that it’s worth? Anyone know much about these? Cheers

 
I’m looking at a Nikon M-223 1-4x20 scope but I’m guessing that it’s not the same and trying to change out those stupid ass ballistic turrets may be a bigger has that it’s worth? Anyone know much about these? Cheers

May be ok for it’s intended purpose .223/5.56 AR type rifles, but I wouldn’t trust my well-being on one.
 
My #1 .458 Lott has worn a 1.5-5x Leupold with the heavy duplex reticle since day one. It has over 500 rounds thru it with no issues. A 1-6x Trijicon would be my next choice. I wouldn’t want a scope with less than 3.75” of eye relief and closer to 4” or more is preferable.
 
Here's another possibility. I have had a couple of these mounted on two heavy recoiling rifles for quite a while and for quite a few shots, well over 100 each. No issues. And IMO, the ultimate for the KISS principle. One is on a 450 Watts- the slightly larger cousin of the Lott. Has generous and forgiving 4.9" eye relief. :) pic below

scope 450 Watts.jpg
 

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No, I have not. My personal objection to 30mm would keep me from even looking at one. For me, 30mm is just too big/fat, heavy....... I have tried a few 30mm scopes and just cannot abide by one when compared in size/weight to 1 inch. Now, that is a personal thing and not an attack on 30mm scopes.

Try to make this a short story if possible.... During the time I was sending so many Leupolds back, I mentioned this to JD. JD being JD, knows everyone in the Industry, he touched base with a big wig at Leupold, extremely nice fellow, I forget his name now. Anyway, this fellow called me up one day. I explained the problems and issues I was having. He already knew much as I was very clearly in the Leupold system. He offered to replace ALL... Repeat ALL of my 1.5X5 Vari and VX with NEW 1X6 30mm scopes.... Now, at that time these 30mm scopes were going for $1200 each. The 1.5X5 $400. I told him I had around 15 of the 1.5X5!!!!!! He said it did not matter... offer stood. I told him how much I appreciated it, but I could not under good faith do such a thing, and not only that, I would not use and do not care for 30mm........... and we continued to speak. He insisted that I should at least try one to see if it would hold up. I finally relented to give one a go. In a few days it pitched up, I had already ordered 30mm rings (I don't keep them on hand) and mounted the big ass fat scope on a 18 inch 50 B&M. Well, it just looked STUPID and handled STUPID......... just too damn big and bulky for my taste. I sighted in without issue, and continued to shoot around 200 rounds over the next few weeks.......... I did not bust it, and it performed fine. I finally got tired of messing with it and sent it back with apologies and many thanks as well.

I am the same way with this new 30mm Trijicon I bought about a year ago.... its too big, I have it on a Custom Shop 22 inch 458 Lott, of course I will never go to the field with a gun such as that again, so its ok on it......


The operative word in your question is "Think"........... I personally do think they would have exactly the same issues as before. Unless they came out with a statement that they have actually made a change in the construction and made them Big Bore Proof, I would not think there was two cents difference between todays scope and 10+ years ago......

I bought a new Leupold the same time as I did the 30mm Trijicon. I forget the model exactly, but loved the reticle, and OMG loved the size, I think it was a 1X4 something or other...... I was going to bust it, but decided I liked it a lot, and put it on a semi 358 MGP instead, decided I rather not bust it on a big bore... HEH........ It seems to be fine on that little gun........

I think that is the little Leupold shown above the Fat Boy..........

DSCN2826-X2.jpg



Here is "Fat Boy" on my 458 Lott.............

DSCN2937-X3.jpg


DSCN2945-X3.jpg


DSCN2940-X3.jpg
Your LOTT is Gorgeous, IMHO, would you be prepared to reveal the build data, please? Those 30mm scopes do look silly ...
 
Here's another possibility. I have had a couple of these mounted on two heavy recoiling rifles for quite a while and for quite a few shots, well over 100 each. No issues. And IMO, the ultimate for the KISS principle. One is on a 450 Watts- the slightly larger cousin of the Lott. Has generous and forgiving 4.9" eye relief. :) pic below

View attachment 554275
Cool scopes. I've got three, one is a heavy duplex. One is an older M8, which has a reticle between a standard and heavy duplex.
 
I’m looking at a Nikon M-223 1-4x20 scope but I’m guessing that it’s not the same and trying to change out those stupid ass ballistic turrets may be a bigger has that it’s worth? Anyone know much about these? Cheers

Yes, I have a few of these, good scopes, have them on rifles that will not be in the field, I don't trust those turrets in the field, not very trusting of them in other scenarios. I believe they can be locked down, but not 100% sure...... I have often thought that they basically have to be the same scope as the 1X4 African/Monarch, it would be inefficient of a company to make two separate scopes, but because of the turrets I never put them to the test on a big bore.

Here's another possibility. I have had a couple of these mounted on two heavy recoiling rifles for quite a while and for quite a few shots, well over 100 each. No issues. And IMO, the ultimate for the KISS principle. One is on a 450 Watts- the slightly larger cousin of the Lott. Has generous and forgiving 4.9" eye relief. :) pic below

View attachment 554275

I had one of these at one time. The size is PERFECT of course, and the eye relief is very good. As I recall however the field of view was not up to my personal specs....... Would have to check on that to make sure, but that is by memory. I also can't remember what I had it on, but the reticle went askew on mine.
Your LOTT is Gorgeous, IMHO, would you be prepared to reveal the build data, please? Those 30mm scopes do look silly ...
This rifle is a Winchester M70 458 Lott African Edition, from the New Haven Custom Shop. New Haven did 50 of these guns. I had #50 and this one is #13. I had Brian at SSK wack that barrel down to 22 inches and install NECG Barrel band front sight. I also had Brian put a high polish blue on it. Yes, it is a super nice gun. A couple of years ago I went stupid and decided I did not need 6 458 Lotts, and sold all but two, including #50. I kept #13 and another Custom Shop Winchester that I had shot 4 elephants with, and was my first 458 Lott..... This #13 gun has a different checkering pattern than any of the others I have seen?

DSCN2867-X2.jpg


DSCN2893-XL.jpg


Last year, my Friend and Accountant came across #18 of the series, and he was lucky enough to get it. I set it up for him with a 1X4 Nikon, and a Trijicon 1X4 as a spare. We never put the Trijicon back on. In less than two months after he got #18, we found #17 for sale....... I urged him in the strongest manner that he had to have it as well, I mean #17 and #18.......... Told him if he did not get it that I was going to for sure...... these things are pretty rare. So he did indeed get the gun, I set it up as well, same thing, mounted a 1X4 Nikon on it, got it ready to go. In July he took #18 on a buffalo/hippo hunt, was very successful in getting both with #18......... I had him shooting a 420 Raptor and matching 450 CEB Solid at 2375 fps.........

I have handled 4 of these guns all were 100% good to go straight out of the box......... The Custom Shop always did a credible job up to 458 Lott..... and these African Edition guns really came out on top. I shot all 4 rather extensively and never once any feed/function issues..... great rifles. Of course they are Winchester M70s, so that comes with the name.........

Those 30mm scopes do look silly ...
Indeed they do....... I despise them. So much so, I am going to take that crap off my gun and return it to irons............ Stupid things.......
 
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