School me on .375, velocity, and Dangerous Game

[sheephunterab]

Surface area is more dependent on bullet construction than weight. A 350 grain that expand 2x has the same surface area as a 250 grain that expands 2x. While it's easy to believe that the hole going through flesh is the same size as the expanded bullet, it's not. There is extensive ripping and tearing of the flesh along the wound channel. The faster the projectile, the greater the ripping a tearing. A faster bullet, all other things being equal, will create a larger primary wound channel. Speed can change how fast an animal dies. This was proven in the Minnesota study. While recoil does increase with speed it also decreases with projectile weight. Typically, a bigger projectile even at a lower speed will offer up more recoil than the additional speed will with a lighter bullet. A 300 grain bullet going 2600 vs a 250 grain going 2800 has a little over 5 pounds more recoil. That same 300 grain bullet would have over 11 pounds more recoil than a 200 grain at 3,000fps.

 

[Velo Dog]

Much of what we believe about bullets and killing power hearkens back to the days before we learned to wrap guilding metal around lead to control expansion. With pure lead bullets or even early versions of controlled expansion bullets....big and slow was the rule. It's not that big and slow was more deadly, it was all the bullet could take without blowing apart and penetration being compromised. In today's world of premium bonded and mono metal bullets the rules have definitely changed. There's no arguing that a projectile passing through flesh at high velocity has a much bigger primary and secondary wound channel than one at low velocity so if the bullet can handle the velocity, there is no harm and quite likely an advantage to driving it faster. Many hunters have a hard time accepting light for calibre bullets but if properly constructed, they are often a better option.

Hi sheephunterab,

The following is a legitimate question of mine on this subject.
In other words, for once I'm not trying to be my normal smartass self here.
In regards to my question on this topic, I have owned and used smallish caliber, high velocity rifles for certain species, usually while hunting thin skinned game in very open terrain.
So, I am not absolutely always a heavy-for-caliber type either, necessarily.
I am more of a "right tool for the right job" type.
And, I totally agree with you that, today's tougher bullets definitely are money well spent, in most hunting scenarios, (at least for the taking of other than small game animals anyway).

However IMO, light-for-caliber bullets seem potentially risky for other than smallish animals.
In that regard, are you not concerned with a light for caliber bullet being too easily deflected away from ultimately reaching the vitals, by "nicking" a bone, or even simply stopping all forward progress when squarely striking any very large volume/densely constructed material, such as shoulder bone or, possibly even just a large muscle-tendon group?
This is not to mention that, after an animal is hit well (or not so well), it occasionally will run away like a scalded cat so, you rightfully decide to go for the "Texas Heart Shot", thereby requiring your light-for-caliber bullet to potentially encounter one or more of the following: pelvic bone, hip socket, hind leg bone and/or a large mass of ground-up vegetation and water, before it reaches the heart/lung region.

It is the old "broomstick vs baseball bat" principle - no matter that I might be able to swing a broomstick at twice the speed that I can swing a baseball bat nonetheless, provided similar impact locations on his anatomy, the bat will cause my foe more trauma every time.

Well at any rate, someone once said; "Difference of opinions are what make for good horse races".

Cheerio,
Velo Dog.

 

[sheephunterab]

From the extensive research I've seen bullet deflection has little if anything to do with weight/speed but rather angle it strikes things. And, in the case of the 375 H&H, we are still talking about a 250-grain projectile here. I shot my Cape buffalo right square in the shoulder blade with a 250 grain bullet and we found it on the far side bulging the hide. The second shot went through his hip and into his lungs. He made it 20 yards. Penetration through bone or extensive amounts of tissue undoubtedly requires very high quality bullets if you are relying on light for calibre offering but from my experience you aren't giving up anything vs heavier bullets, within reason of course. As for the broomstick vs bat theory, it we were trying to kill animals by whacking them on the head you'd have a point but we are trying to make a hole in them and as long as that hole is deep enough, the weight of the projectile means little, other than the lighter one will do more tissue damage. Vanessa shot a water buffalo in Argentina with a 139-grain GMX out of the 7RM. It was a quartering to shot and the bullet went through shoulder and passed through another four feet of body. While I wouldn't recommend the 7RM for buffalo I share the story to illustrate what a light bullet can achieve. With so many of the theories surrounding bullets conceived before we had jacketed bullets most of it really doesn't apply any more to modern bullets. The proof is in the pudding and as this new generation of bullets sees more use, I suspect you'll see new rules written.

 

[Pheroze]

I am genuinely interested in this topic. Maybe it is too anecdotal, but I was comparing my 375 to a 300 win mag used by another hunter in camp. On the same animals with what was described as good shots, it just seemed to me that the 375 held a distinct advantage on how the game reacted. I attributed this to the advantage frontal diameter has over velocity.

So, is it right to say within the same caliber speed gives a benefit, but as between calibers, you cannot make up for the advantages of frontal diameter by using more speed assuming complete penetration?

So, a 375 will never be a 505 when it comes to effevtiness on dangerous game, no matter how fast you push it.

 

[sheephunterab]

Absolutely hole size matters. The point I was making in the previous post was that on the same diameter bullets, the heavier bullet offers no advantage regarding frontal area but the lighter bullet would do more tissue damage because of higher velocity..

 

[Pheroze]

Absolutely hole size matters. The point I was making in the previous post was that on the same diameter bullets, the heavier bullet offers no advantage regarding frontal area but the lighter bullet would do more tissue damage because of higher velocity..

Interesting, I think that is where people go off the rails, by thinking that what is lacking in size is made up for in speed. Not sure if that sounded PG... Lol

 

[Velo Dog]

From the extensive research I've seen bullet deflection has little if anything to do with weight/speed but rather angle it strikes things. And, in the case of the 375 H&H, we are still talking about a 250-grain projectile here. I shot my Cape buffalo right square in the shoulder blade with a 250 grain bullet and we found it on the far side bulging the hide. The second shot went through his hip and into his lungs. He made it 20 yards. Penetration through bone or extensive amounts of tissue undoubtedly requires very high quality bullets if you are relying on light for calibre offering but from my experience you aren't giving up anything vs heavier bullets, within reason of course. As for the broomstick vs bat theory, it we were trying to kill animals by whacking them on the head you'd have a point but we are trying to make a hole in them and as long as that hole is deep enough, the weight of the projectile means little, other than the lighter one will do more tissue damage. Vanessa shot a water buffalo in Argentina with a 139-grain GMX out of the 7RM. It was a quartering to shot and the bullet went through shoulder and passed through another four feet of body. While I wouldn't recommend the 7RM for buffalo I share the story to illustrate what a light bullet can achieve. With so many of the theories surrounding bullets conceived before we had jacketed bullets most of it really doesn't apply any more to modern bullets. The proof is in the pudding and as this new generation of bullets sees more use, I suspect you'll see new rules written.

I understand, and thank you for your well written explanation, I enjoyed it very much.

 

[Tarheelpwr]

I think I may plan a more practical approach and go with a nice .375 and call it good. I'm looking really hard at the MRC American Vantage in .375. I like the 8# +/- weight, but I have no experience with their rifles. Can anyone chime in on them? Are they a dependable, do all rifle that will function day in and day out?

I know the safe bet is having Wayne at AHR build me a .375 on a CZ. I could get it probably close to 8.5# with a smaller barrel diameter, but it would cost a bit more. Any route I go, I plan to use a synthetic stock. I see Manners now offers their EH7, McMillan offers a CZ Express, and B&C offers their Safari. Wayne also offers his stock. Anyone have experience with these? From my searches, it seems the ergos on the McMillan leave a lot to be desired, I have not seen anything on the Manners/AHR, and the B&C seems to get the best reviews. Hoping some of you all have first hand experience. They all seem to weigh about the same 2.5#.