Rigby’s first 450 No 2 NE

[AZDAVE]

@Sourdough I am already looking forward to the hunt report.

 

[JvW]

Nice project, but your rifle would actually be the second Rigby in .450 No 2 NE. The first one was made in 1921 for FW Greswolde-Williams as a best sidelock ejector with 26" barrels. It was made by Webley & Scott for Rigby. It is now, to the best of my knowledge, in a collection in the USA.

 

[Brent in Az]

Beautiful piece of lumber to start that build.

 

[Sourdough]

Nice project, but your rifle would actually be the second Rigby in .450 No 2 NE. The first one was made in 1921 for FW Greswolde-Williams as a best sidelock ejector with 26" barrels. It was made by Webley & Scott for Rigby. It is now, to the best of my knowledge, in a collection in the USA.

I think you missed my point. According to Ian Nyschens he had a Rigby in 450 No 2 and I’m inclined to believe him since I figure anyone who has shot north of a thousand elephants would know what gun he used. BUT according to Rigby they’ve never built a 450 No 2. I suspect there were actually a number of them built, but not according to Rigby’s records. Which makes this gun the first 450 No 2 that Rigby has built. And it will be, according to their records. Am I making any sense?

 

[Huvius]

I’d need to look at some entries for 450s in the Rigby ledgers to see if they actually differentiated between the 450s in the book.
I know for sure that some makers simply noted the bore and not the particular variation of the cartridge.
For example, in the Alex Henry ledgers, any 450 is simply described as a “450 bore” but could be the 3-1/4”, No.1 Express, No.2 Musket etc.
Point is, it’s entirely possible that one is not to know which variant the rifle was originally by looking at the ledgers.
Especially as the 450 3-1/4 and the 450 No.2 were both proofed for the same charge (80grs Cordite / 480gr bullet) so unless a particular rifle was engraved on the barrel as to which 450 it is, even the proof marks wouldn’t tell you.

 

[Sourdough]

That is interesting, and from a record keeping point of view unless adhered to precisely could really muddy the waters depending on who might be entering the records. Out of curiosity please let me know what you find and I’ll check with Jerome and see if he knows.

 

[RR 314]

I think you missed my point. According to Ian Nyschens he had a Rigby in 450 No 2 and I’m inclined to believe him since I figure anyone who has shot north of a thousand elephants would know what gun he used. BUT according to Rigby they’ve never built a 450 No 2. I suspect there were actually a number of them built, but not according to Rigby’s records. Which makes this gun the first 450 No 2 that Rigby has built. And it will be, according to their records. Am I making any sense?

Clear! I don’t care if it is number one or number 100, it is going to be absolutely spectacular! Tariff is going to be painful, but it is what it is.

 

[rigbymauser]

I’d need to look at some entries for 450s in the Rigby ledgers to see if they actually differentiated between the 450s in the book.
I know for sure that some makers simply noted the bore and not the particular variation of the cartridge.
For example, in the Alex Henry ledgers, any 450 is simply described as a “450 bore” but could be the 3-1/4”, No.1 Express, No.2 Musket etc.
Point is, it’s entirely possible that one is not to know which variant the rifle was originally by looking at the ledgers.
Especially as the 450 3-1/4 and the 450 No.2 were both proofed for the same charge (80grs Cordite / 480gr bullet) so unless a particular rifle was engraved on the barrel as to which 450 it is, even the proof marks wouldn’t tell you.

the .450 3 1/4" Nitro express was proofed with 70grain cordite.

 

[Huvius]

the .450 3 1/4" Nitro express was proofed with 70grain cordite.

Ah!!
You are correct - don’t know what I was thinking.
So, my previous point on that was wrong!!

 

[rookhawk]

View attachment 705474

View attachment 705475

Congratulations!!! The 450#2 3-1/2" Nitro Express is a magnificent cartridge. Extremely durable brass. Long cartridge that easily feeds into a double rifle. The lowest pressure of the elephant cartridges. Moderate recoil.

The only bad thing about them is brass, dies, and shell holders aren't the easiest to get. CH4D has the dies and shell holders in stock now. Bertram is currently producing the brass in Australia. Make sure to buy plenty of brass as it is currently available.

Other than those minor gotchas, its a fantastic caliber!!!

 

[Lybica]

Now my favorite big game hunting author, Ian Nyschens, said in his books and in video interviews with Buzz Charlton that his favorite gun was a 450 No 2 made by Rigby. That gun went to the bottom of the Zambezi River when Ian’s boat overturned.

Greetings
Apologies for the slight diversion
Was following along on the thread and saw your reference to Ian Nyschens - who I then went and looked up
There is a post on this site about him and his books. From what I have read quite a fascinating and complex person.
I am not sure - from your mention of him if you had ever met him ?
I gather your build of this rifle is somewhat in memory of him ?
Where would one be able to find the video interviews with Buzz Charlton?

Although I am not quite sure how a deep love for Africa translates into the killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? How much money did he make from the selling of the ivory ?
There is a sort of old lore that if you cut down a tree you should then plant ten. I see the killing of an Elephant akin to the cutting down of a really big ancient old [African] tree
I do not know how that would relate to killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? Perhaps the purchase of a million hectares of prime Elephant conservation territory to add to an existing Game preservation park
where Elephant are already overpopulated and under stress ?

 

[rookhawk]

Especially as the 450 3-1/4 and the 450 No.2 were both proofed for the same charge (80grs Cordite / 480gr bullet) so unless a particular rifle was engraved on the barrel as to which 450 it is, even the proof marks wouldn’t tell you.

This is absolutely correct. I'd wager Rigby's ledgers aren't that precise when they were retailing Webley & Scott made guns too. The ledgers for their own gunworks will have more detail.

The 450 No2 was very popular from 1904 to 1908 before the ban on 45 calibers was imposed. I would think several guns retailed by Rigby in that era where the ledgers simply say "480gr and 80gr cordite" were #2s, not 450NEs.

 

[spike.t]

Greetings
Apologies for the slight diversion
Was following along on the thread and saw your reference to Ian Nyschens - who I then went and looked up
There is a post on this site about him and his books. From what I have read quite a fascinating and complex person.
I am not sure - from your mention of him if you had ever met him ?
I gather your build of this rifle is somewhat in memory of him ?
Where would one be able to find the video interviews with Buzz Charlton?

Although I am not quite sure how a deep love for Africa translates into the killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? How much money did he make from the selling of the ivory ?
There is a sort of old lore that if you cut down a tree you should then plant ten. I see the killing of an Elephant akin to the cutting down of a really big ancient old [African] tree
I do not know how that would relate to killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? Perhaps the purchase of a million hectares of prime Elephant conservation territory to add to an existing Game preservation park
where Elephant are already overpopulated and under stress ?

Errrrrrr.......mmmmm are you sure you are on the correct site for you?.......strange post ....and I saw on your introduction thread another one referring to "terrible " colonial period......sound bit on the woke side to me...... and from SA......

 

[Surgeon1]

My dream DR is a 450#2 in a modern rifle. V-C, Heym, and Chapuis have had no interest when I've
approached them since 2015. Searcy has built a couple but after meeting him a couple times it was
obvious I couldn't deal with him in any way. He is now retired and no one who is a competent DR
gunsmith will touch one of his guns.
I'm very excited to see the progress of this build! This will be an epic DR, the Box lock and wood are perfect choices!

 

[VertigoBE]

There is a sort of old lore that if you cut down a tree you should then plant ten. I see the killing of an Elephant akin to the cutting down of a really big ancient old [African] tree
I do not know how that would relate to killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? Perhaps the purchase of a million hectares of prime Elephant conservation territory to add to an existing Game preservation park
where Elephant are already overpopulated and under stress ?

If you were in any way informed, you would also know that an overpopulation of elephants is exactly what they will be doing. Killing off the ancient boabab trees for example.

 

[IvW]

Greetings
Apologies for the slight diversion
Was following along on the thread and saw your reference to Ian Nyschens - who I then went and looked up
There is a post on this site about him and his books. From what I have read quite a fascinating and complex person.
I am not sure - from your mention of him if you had ever met him ?
I gather your build of this rifle is somewhat in memory of him ?
Where would one be able to find the video interviews with Buzz Charlton?

Although I am not quite sure how a deep love for Africa translates into the killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? How much money did he make from the selling of the ivory ?
There is a sort of old lore that if you cut down a tree you should then plant ten. I see the killing of an Elephant akin to the cutting down of a really big ancient old [African] tree
I do not know how that would relate to killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? Perhaps the purchase of a million hectares of prime Elephant conservation territory to add to an existing Game preservation park
where Elephant are already overpopulated and under stress ?

One of the greatest elephant hunters of all times......hunting them where few dared to do so.....big brass balls....a true legend.....and yes more than one southern african country over populated with elephant......

 

[Sourdough]

Greetings
Apologies for the slight diversion
Was following along on the thread and saw your reference to Ian Nyschens - who I then went and looked up
There is a post on this site about him and his books. From what I have read quite a fascinating and complex person.
I am not sure - from your mention of him if you had ever met him ?

I have not. He was already dead by the time I heard of him.

I gather your build of this rifle is somewhat in memory of him ?

Kind of a homage to one of the most interesting persons I've ever heard of. And of course a great hunter from an earlier time when Africa was still very wild.

Where would one be able to find the video interviews with Buzz Charlton?

As far as I know the only place to watch it on on one of Buzz's dvds, "Hunting the African Elephant" http://cmsafaris.com/hd-filming-photographic-safaris/dvd.htm

Although I am not quite sure how a deep love for Africa translates into the killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? How much money did he make from the selling of the ivory ?

Africa was a much different place when Ian hunted. Although borders existed they generally weren't patrolled or enforced. Governments were very rudimentary. Elephants abounded and still had free range of Africa. He made a living but didn't get wealthy from it.

There is a sort of old lore that if you cut down a tree you should then plant ten. I see the killing of an Elephant akin to the cutting down of a really big ancient old [African] tree
I do not know how that would relate to killing of more than a thousand Elephant ? Perhaps the purchase of a million hectares of prime Elephant conservation territory to add to an existing Game preservation park
where Elephant are already overpopulated and under stress ?

Again different times. Elephants are over populated today in Zimbabwe (among other countries) but with only a couple of exceptions you or I can't buy land there, nearly all is owned by the government. The biggest problem is over population of humans, and they want land to live on, grow food on, and build cities on (cities being the sunset of civilization) and will drive animals to extinction to get it.

 

[Lybica]

Errrrrrr.......mmmmm are you sure you are on the correct site for you?.......strange post ....and I saw on your introduction thread another one referring to "terrible " colonial period......sound bit on the woke side to me...... and from SA......

Too many assumptions ..
What is wrong "coming from South Africa" ?
It is where a lot of people here go to hunt
Is it impossible to be both a - conservationist as well as a HUNTER
Has the space and habitat left for "free-roaming" African Elephant been constantly shrinking ?
Are there areas where Elephant are starving to death because of overpopulation ?
What did Alan Savoury say about all the Elephant he had killed ?

Allan Savory admits his experiment of killing 40,000 elephants to prevent desertification in Zimbabwe was a complete failure. He calls this experiment “the saddest and greatest blunder” of his life. Similarly, Kruger National Park’s officials led a decades long culling program to limit elephant numbers under the guise of protecting large tree species. Again, this experiment failed to prove a clear relationship between elephant densities and dead trees.

The Journal of African Elephants

A deep troubling and VERY difficult debate - with one clear observation - there are too many people - too much "civilisation"
and
Too much money involved

As mentioned I spent time in the Zambezi valley on the river
Saw large groups of Elephant every day going down to the river
At night they would come to feed on the wild plum tree outside my bedroom window - with just some wire mesh and mosquito netting between them and me
Spent time on the river ( near Mana Pools ) pulling tusks out of decaying carcasses that had been shot / poached in Zambia
Was friends with the people that owned the Lion and Elephant park outside Salisbury / Harare who had Elephant ( and other animals ) that were trained for movie work
SO ;
I tend to see Elephant a little different to most folks
Much as I would like to say here

 

[WAB]

Congratulations!!! The 450#2 3-1/2" Nitro Express is a magnificent cartridge. Extremely durable brass. Long cartridge that easily feeds into a double rifle. The lowest pressure of the elephant cartridges. Moderate recoil.

The only bad thing about them is brass, dies, and shell holders aren't the easiest to get. CH4D has the dies and shell holders in stock now. Bertram is currently producing the brass in Australia. Make sure to buy plenty of brass as it is currently available.

Other than those minor gotchas, its a fantastic caliber!!!

I suspect that money and Rigby can take care of all of those nagging little issues!

 

[Lybica]

I have not. He was already dead by the time I heard of him.
Kind of a homage to one of the most interesting persons I've ever heard of. And of course a great hunter from an earlier time when Africa was still very wild.

Read about Operation NOAH - the operation to move wild life out of the areas that were being flooded
The Zambezi valley where Ian Nyschens shot most of his Elephant

Operation NOAH

Why are we not celebrating Rupert Fothergill
Who saved animals instead of killing them ?

I spent time at Kariba town as well as on the lake on a home built house boat ( all steel ) Bumi Hills / Fothergill island / Spurwing / Sengwe mouth and saw unmolested wild life in it's natural environment.
Before ZImbabwe became another ruin ..