Rechambering of Rifle Actions?

[nztimb]

Von Gruff - - The 7X61 had a 1-12" twist. Too slow for a 7mm RM... I had it rebarreled with a Hobaugh barrel with 1-9-1/2" twist. Needed magazine slightly lengthened, so that was done, stock needed some fitting with the longer magazine. Had the feeding made better. I still have the rifle and it has taken deer and elk.

That explains it then. My 7x61 had a 9 inch twist and was just right with the 160 gn bullet

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yeah, custom made rifles seem to be great, but out of my price range. I look for well built, factory or semi-custom (used) rifles with good functionality? I was just floating this thread to gather some opinions from the many here on AH with personal knowledge of this subject? Thanks!

CoElkHunter
I have had 4 rifles custom built and all but one set me back a similar price of a good quality rifle (Winchester model 70 or Remington 700) in OZ . You need to get the donor rifle at the right price.
My Whelen started life as a Stevens 200 in 270 cal.
With rebarrel, new rifle basics trigger and Leopold mounts and rings total all up including rifle and gunsmith cost $1,200 Australian. New Winchester model 70 in OZ $1,700. Cheaper for me to rebuild as no new 35 Whelen rifles. Second hang Whelen command a premium.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

An Aussie perspective
Supply, chamber and fit barrel no sights or any extras $900 will get me a better barrel than factory.
Let’s say it’s a Howa I can buy a Howa for $900 maybe less pending model.
A Tikka, I just wait for a good secondhand one come up.
A big bore CZ550, secondhand on usedguns.com.au no barrel band.
If I wanted to AI something I own. $150 for the gunsmith to remove, chamber and refit barrel. I almost took 458wm out to a Lott

AI dies . Here’s the kicker. Nearly $300 as opposed to the $85 for standard dies I can source easily.

The AI is an advantage if you need it or want it. It can be done on various cartridge chambering but unless you want it just because then there may be no real world advantage as a hunter.

I might still want one one day but it also requires fire forming loads from standard cases blow out the case neck area to load an AI cartridge. I’ve read firing a standard load in the AI chamber Reduces the loads velocity by approx the same gain you would get on an AI load. So no point chambering your favourite hunting rifle in AI and reverting to factory loads it will run slower. It works in a pinch but gloss the improved advantage if you do it.

CBH
Chris you need a cheaper gunsmith mate. I'll give you the details of mine if you want. Yes specialty dies can be dear hear in OZ but check the good ol web, I got a set of Redding dies for the 35 AI FOR $60 OZ posted to my door.
Anything gun related here is expensive mate. Supposed cheap (in USA) 250 grain hotcore $65 for 50 the new tipped game changer over 100 bucks in 30 cal.
Cheers mate
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

RCBS used to machine dies to your specifications if you wanted a true wildcat, they may still offer that option. Other than that there are not too many combinations that haven't been tried at one time or another. The AI improvement on cartridges is a very common one so the dies shouldn't cost too much if they need to be machined, all that has to happen is for the sizing die shoulder needs to be bumped a little bit.

Jump
Redding lists a bucket full of dies in different categories.
Both Lee and Redding will make dies to your cartridge just send the 5 fired cases and the will make dies to your cartridge. Cost me $300 for mine but that was FL sizing die, bullet seating die and collect die.
I didn't think it was that dear.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Interesting! Obviously, one would have to have the wildcatted rifle (chamber) first to be able to fire and produce the cases and submit them to Redding. I wonder how a gunsmith makes the wildcatted chamber without a fired cartridge for a reference? I guess an mechanical engineering type schematic?)? Wow! Silly me. I guess that’s how all rifle cartridges and chambers were originally developed! Got carried away!

CoElkHunter
Dave Manson @ Manson reamer has a bucket load of different reamer and will either make one of your choice or advise on modifying any of the framers he has.
T that's how I did my 25/303Epps Newton improved

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’m getting in beyond my depth here but there may be various ways.
Simply draw a design (Concept) and ask to have a reamer made by the people who make them. Manson is a name that’s comes to mind.
Perhaps in some cases you could select a barrel with a given bore and use a reamer of a parent case so as you are starting with a case that’s is available and has potential to create your new design.
Like my example above a gun nut who had access to a small CBC lathe and someone to demonstrate he made a bush to shorten the chamber of a .270winchester chambered barrel and fireformed .243 loads in it. You would need to know your powders and do your homework.
With my limited knowledge I would not attempt that. I would not even suggest someone tries it. Bushing the chamber is not a practice anyone would advocate.
But with that example I think maybe you could get a .270 bore barrel blank and use a reamer with a smaller neck dia perhaps? Providing that you could keep it centred. So like a .243, 6.5 cm or .260 Rem reamer into the .270 bore barrel may make that wildcat.
Forget it buy a 7mm-08 that’s what I did.
There was an article in sporting shooter of an Aussie who made a .358 on a short action. Alan Swan done the work. He ordered a reamer to his design, asked Bertram cases to custom make brass with his designated chambering be it a .358 with his last name as the designation and head stamp.
The cases were a standard head size of formed from a generic blank case they make something else of.
I believe readers are ground and need to be sharp, also these can be resharpened . I guess in the hands of a smart machinist they can be ground to change the shoulder angle.
Nathan Foster runs the terminal ballistics research website. Look up his 7mm practical page
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/7mm+Practical.html

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Blog/x_post/the-third-7mm-practical.html

I haven’t read this in a while but I think it talks about the process.

Another note a gunsmith in my home town when I was a kid was Arthur Langford of Broken Hill he owned Myra’s sports store.
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2011/01/squeeze-bore.html
Google some references
I know he designed a .17mini mite and a Tini mite by downsizing the necks of .22rf and .22mag. Making his own dies etc. they were the fasted rimfires recorded at the time and a pre cursor to the .17Mach1 and .17HMR
He also done some centrefire wildcats. All this before the internet and these modern wildcats . Evidently There was a .300 Myra using a .222 case. Sound familiar?
He had a nice ammunition factory and a small outlet that he sold in the early 90s

CBH
Sorry to be a pain mate but the 358 you're talking about was actually done on a ruger long action and the final caliber was the 358 Mitchell Express. It is an 8x57 case AIEd and necked up to 35 cal. Ted gets some impressive velocities out of it. Nearly 35 Whelen. I had the thought if doing something similar with the 303 case as it gives a capacity of 62 grains of AR2213SC. Built on ,P14 action touch would basically have a rimmed Whelen.
Cheers mate Bob.

 

[bruce moulds]

bob,
myra of broken hill used to do a 35/303 for pig hunters.
riverbrand used to load ammo for it.
it would have been a pretty good scrub gun on a lee enfield.
bruce.

 

[CBH Australia]

@bruce moulds Myra is the store i mentioned. It was Myra's sports atore in the Oriental Arcade. Nemed after the Owners wife. Arthur Langsford predeceased his wife by some years after retirement. Its rumored she sold any patents and info prior to her passing but i think smart people have just reinvented hos concepts and with more cashflow and marketing they have had great success.
Perhaps the 17hmr, .17 mach II etc were original concepts but many people believe Arthurs designs were before there time and may have been the original concept or first prtotype of some succesful modern cartidges.
I think they loaded ammo under the name Riverbrand and Myra along with manufacturing a few accessories.
They closed the ammo factory due to regulations . I dont know the facts but he was still in the retail business in my time and made reference to the closure and said the government should owe him some considerable compensation that he will never see. I belive there was a nephew who inherited any inventory that was left from the couple.

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen thats the article i read i stand corrected about the action length.
I was inspired to do something at the time but i dont have the money to go this route and i dont know enough to develop a load for a new concept cartridge,ley alone what would i do that hasnt been done in some similar form.
I formed an opinion many years ago that the 7mm-08 may be the ideal all rounder for Australia being bigger than .270 for deer species where required and able to be chambered in a short action if that matters.
Now i have a 7mm -08 in a Tikka CTR all current production tikkas share the same action length anyway of weight was a consideration. I think a lightweight 7mm-08 would be good .
Is there a tried and proven .270 based on the .308 case? A wildcat as such that is known or has available reamers and dies?

 

[bruce moulds]

chris,
riverbrand was a different company than myra, but they worked together a bit.
riverbrand mostly reloaded military 303 and 308 cases, in original form and necked to other calibres, e.g 303/25 and 243 win.
their projectiles were well suited to our game, goats pigs and deer..
myra even made a cartridge where the bullet started as 22 cal, and the tapered barrel spat out a 17 cal bullet.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@bruce moulds Myra is the store i mentioned. It was Myra's sports atore in the Oriental Arcade. Nemed after the Owners wife. Arthur Langsford predeceased his wife by some years after retirement. Its rumored she sold any patents and info prior to her passing but i think smart people have just reinvented hos concepts and with more cashflow and marketing they have had great success.
Perhaps the 17hmr, .17 mach II etc were original concepts but many people believe Arthurs designs were before there time and may have been the original concept or first prtotype of some succesful modern cartidges.
I think they loaded ammo under the name Riverbrand and Myra along with manufacturing a few accessories.
They closed the ammo factory due to regulations . I dont know the facts but he was still in the retail business in my time and made reference to the closure and said the government should owe him some considerable compensation that he will never see. I belive there was a nephew who inherited any inventory that was left from the couple.

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen thats the article i read i stand corrected about the action length.
I was inspired to do something at the time but i dont have the money to go this route and i dont know enough to develop a load for a new concept cartridge,ley alone what would i do that hasnt been done in some similar form.
I formed an opinion many years ago that the 7mm-08 may be the ideal all rounder for Australia being bigger than .270 for deer species where required and able to be chambered in a short action if that matters.
Now i have a 7mm -08 in a Tikka CTR all current production tikkas share the same action length anyway of weight was a consideration. I think a lightweight 7mm-08 would be good .
Is there a tried and proven .270 based on the .308 case? A wildcat as such that is known or has available reamers and dies?

CBH
Chris commercially the 308 has been done in 243,260,7mm,338,358 there may be others. The 25/308 souper was popular years ago but I haven't heard of anyone doing the 270 version. It would be interesting.
One rifle that Arthur did do that no one has worked out how to do was his 22 EXTRUDER,. It fired a normal 22cal long rifle thru a tapered and fully rifled bore to exit as a 40gn .177 cal bullet. A lot of so called new wizzbang cartridges are nothing more than a reinvention of the wheel. The 6.5 crudmore is nothing more than a 250 savage AI with a different shoulder angles, a lot of the SAUMs are basically the same capacity as the old 6.5 and 350 rem mag. Nick Harvey necked up the 6.5 to 7mm for the 7mm Harvey magnum, just the same as the 7mm SAUM, both are nothing more than a 280 Remington in a short action.
Wildcating is a great pastime but it's hard to find something that ain't been done before.
My own personal cat is a combination of three others to form the final case. Hence the 25/303 Epps Newton improved. Great fun to play with..
Cheers mate
Bob
One for you to look up mate I think it's called the 22 Flintstone Eyebunger. Yes it's real.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

bob,
myra of broken hill used to do a 35/303 for pig hunters.
riverbrand used to load ammo for it.
it would have been a pretty good scrub gun on a lee enfield.
bruce.

Bruce moulds
It think it was called the 303/35 Teratorian, there's are still quite a few around but on no1 actions. It would almost equal the Whelen if it was AIed for a P14 action.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

chris,
riverbrand was a different company than myra, but they worked together a bit.
riverbrand mostly reloaded military 303 and 308 cases, in original form and necked to other calibres, e.g 303/25 and 243 win.
their projectiles were well suited to our game, goats pigs and deer..
myra even made a cartridge where the bullet started as 22 cal, and the tapered barrel spat out a 17 cal bullet.
bruce.

Bruce some of the 303 family that has had the AI treatment.
Left is my 25 Epps Newton improved, then 270, 303 and 35 territorial AI

 

[CBH Australia]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
He was producing the extruder around 30 years ago I was licensed but didnt have the money, or didnt prioritise the money. He sold the retail store early 90s. A dealer recently told me he has one in inventory but guess what its not for sale. I tried. I could have had a new Brno back then retrofitted to .17 or .20 extruder. From what Arthur told me at the time the .20 was more succesfull for accuracy but ive been told he went with a faster twist on .17 to stabilise it. Either was forced out under pressure and with the extra sectional density it was an improvement over .22lr

 

[bruce moulds]

bob, they would be excellent in something like a Winchester hiwall.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

bob, they would be excellent in something like a Winchester hiwall.
bruce.

Bruce moulds
Mate I can only dream of such a luxury as a high wall or a Browning 85 high wall new model or even a ruger no1, let alone a K95 Blaser.
The closest I could come was my 22K Hornet in an old refurbished low wall. The work was done by my gunsmith Rob Spittles in Rylestone

Started life as a 44/40 straight grip 1885 low wall made in 1891 with a half round half octagonal barrel. The barrel was sleeved with a .224 sleeve and chambered for the 22K Hornet.
Blew the budget on it, if you have a high wall you would like to give to a useful cause I won't say no. Ha ha ha.
Cheers mate Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

and a lovely little rifle it is too.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

bob,
myra of broken hill used to do a 35/303 for pig hunters.
riverbrand used to load ammo for it.
it would have been a pretty good scrub gun on a lee enfield.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
@CBH Australia

Bruce and Chris
The cartridge on the left is Ted Mitchells 358 Mitchell Express on an 8x57 case and Had the sharper shoulder treatment.
The on on the right is one I just womped up for fun. It my 25/303 Epps Newton necked up to 35 cal with a 250 grain Speer hotcore, almost the same capacity as the Whelen 3 grains less. So I assume it would do the same job. Who would have think it a rimmed Whelen.
Bob.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

With a lot of wildcats or even the AI versions all the reloader will do is to size the neck, where a standard die set for the parent cartridge will work.

After doing a quick search I found the Redding will build you a custom set of dies, all you need to do is to send them 3 fired cases for them to get the measurements off of.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/38-custom-made-dies

@JimP
Lee precision will do the same thing but cheaper and still excellent quality.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@CoElkHunter yes wildcats are fun and sometimes a challenge to get formed and loaded. I use to have a number of wildcats but just down to a few that I really like for example my 416 Express (350 RM necked up to 416), and some of the old rounds like a 40/60 Maynard or 40/50 straight Sharps have to be formed from 30/40 Krag or 7.62x54.
The 338 Edge I had years ago is an example of when I sold it I didn't get close to what I had in it. So I don't build any wildcats except for the ones I plan on keeping for a long time. It is good to see people experimenting with all combo's of wildcats just to see what it will do

@AZDAVE
sounds like your 416 Express is a short action 416 Whelen. Bat a dam side less hassle headspacing.
Bob

 

[AZDAVE]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen you are correct it is a nice effective round that is fun to shoot. I have it set up for 350gr loads and it is a nice elk/bear/moose kinda round.