Question for military/LE

[Wyatt Smith]

The main problem with pistol caliber SMGs is that they are chambered in a pistol caliber. While they have their advantages, terminal performance isn’t one.

 

[B0MBOY]

My cousin’s grandson finished up basic in the Army and now he’s onto the next phase of training, forgive me I don’t know the lingo. He’s in Airborne. Anyway the Army now shows training pictures on their Facebook page. As it happens he was in one recently. They were teaching them how to clear rooms in teams and squads. So to my question: why do they use an M4 for that? Seems awkward and unruly inside a building with a real possibility of over penetration. Wouldn’t a 9mm SMG of some kind be better, or a handgun or shotgun?

The military reason is everyone gets an M4 so that’s what you use. And as far as cqb weapons go an M4 with the issued eotech is maybe 90% of the the ideal cqb weapons features anyway.

The reality is the super special guys who get to pick what they want to use for CQB seem to end up somewhere around a 10.5” barrel 556 rifle (+/- an inch or two) with a suppressor and a red dot/holographic sight to be the ideal CQB weapon.

If you watch ballistic testing 556 out of a 10.5” barrel is still vastly superior to most alternatives, namely 9mm, 45acp, and 300 blackout. So point in favor of m4 for caliber

I can tell you from experience the eotech and the aimpoint T2 are the pinnacle of CQB optics. Putting an eotech on my competition rifle halved my times for el presidente and mozambique drills. So point for m4 for optic

Profile wise a 10” ish barrel should be better for CQB, but in reality everyone using that short barrel sticks a suppressor on it because it’s loud, the muzzle flash is enormous, it gives away your position, generally not a good time. So ultimately your 10.5” ar gets a 4-6” suppressor stuck on front most of the time and you’re back at approximately m4 overall length again.

So basically an M4 is about as good as you’re going to get in CQB unless you’re highly specialized and get the short barrel+suppressor combo.

 

[wesheltonj]

Be careful with getting a false sense of security and believing that a 9mm FMJ or self defense bullet will not penetrate through 3 walls of normal US home construction materials.

That why you use Glaser Safety slugs indoors. I carry two magazines, one for indoors loaded with Glaser and one for outdoors loaded with hollow points and change them out as necessary.

 

[gbflyer]

The military reason is everyone gets an M4 so that’s what you use. And as far as cqb weapons go an M4 with the issued eotech is maybe 90% of the the ideal cqb weapons features anyway.

The reality is the super special guys who get to pick what they want to use for CQB seem to end up somewhere around a 10.5” barrel 556 rifle (+/- an inch or two) with a suppressor and a red dot/holographic sight to be the ideal CQB weapon.

If you watch ballistic testing 556 out of a 10.5” barrel is still vastly superior to most alternatives, namely 9mm, 45acp, and 300 blackout. So point in favor of m4 for caliber

I can tell you from experience the eotech and the aimpoint T2 are the pinnacle of CQB optics. Putting an eotech on my competition rifle halved my times for el presidente and mozambique drills. So point for m4 for optic

Profile wise a 10” ish barrel should be better for CQB, but in reality everyone using that short barrel sticks a suppressor on it because it’s loud, the muzzle flash is enormous, it gives away your position, generally not a good time. So ultimately your 10.5” ar gets a 4-6” suppressor stuck on front most of the time and you’re back at approximately m4 overall length again.

So basically an M4 is about as good as you’re going to get in CQB unless you’re highly specialized and get the short barrel+suppressor combo.

I had also considered the muzzle flash but didn’t mention it. Seems like a lot of the bad stuff happens in the dark. Giant ball of fire has to waste a persons natural night vision. I suppose the professionals are kitted out to deal with it, maybe the homeowner in a defensive situation not so much.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Profile wise a 10” ish barrel should be better for CQB, but in reality everyone using that short barrel sticks a suppressor on it because it’s loud, the muzzle flash is enormous, it gives away your position, generally not a good time. So ultimately your 10.5” ar gets a 4-6” suppressor stuck on front most of the time and you’re back at approximately m4 overall length again.

So basically an M4 is about as good as you’re going to get in CQB unless you’re highly specialized and get the short barrel+suppressor combo.

The suppressor isn’t there as much for noise as most would think. You’re wearing a headset for both noise reduction and communication. The main reason for the suppressor is reducing the concussion of the muzzle blast for the rest of your buddies in the room and the flash signature so NVG’s don’t get washed out given a lot of those operations occur when most others are sleeping

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Congratulations on joining an honorable, yet underappreciated profession. Take your time and soak it in. In every situation you'll learn something......good or bad, but you'll learn something. Stay safe and watch your SIX.

This is entirely unrelated to the thread but I can now say with utter certainty that I have NO desire to get OC sprayed again. [Expletive omitted] that!

My face feels fine but for some reason my left arm/hand and my right hand have decided to be on fire now. And I really have to go use the necessities...

 

[cajunchefray]

This is entirely unrelated to the thread but I can now say with utter certainty that I have NO desire to get OC sprayed again. [Expletive omitted] that!

My face feels fine but for some reason my left arm/hand and my right hand have decided to be on fire now. And I really have to go use the necessities...

Try olive oil on your hands, arms.
I’ve worked with oleoresin capsicum in food products, some with the heat level of pepper spray.
Had to use gloves for the necessities.

Once I learned about olive oil, it diminished the burn from the pepper. Extra virgin olive oil actually works best.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Try olive oil on your hands, arms.
I’ve worked with oleoresin capsicum in food products, some with the heat level of pepper spray.
Had to use gloves for the necessities.

Once I learned about olive oil, it diminished the burn from the pepper. Extra virgin olive oil actually works best.

It's abating but slowly. How curious that it should suddenly pop up like that despite using both anti-oil dish soap and baby soap several times when the rest seems to be alright. I wonder if it's to do with my psoriasis/slight eczema...

Hmm. Olive oil. Just rub it on a bit?

 

[cajunchefray]

It's abating but slowly. How curious that it should suddenly pop up like that despite using both anti-oil dish soap and baby soap several times when the rest seems to be alright. I wonder if it's to do with my psoriasis/slight eczema...

Hmm. Olive oil. Just rub it on a bit?

Rub it in liberally every few hours for a couple days. It’s good for your skin conditions as well. Understand the psoriasis too.
I once used capsaicin arthritis cream on my knee ( arthritis)applied too much, long pants and we were cutting brush on the deer lease in July in south Louisiana. It was hotter than the hinges of hell. By noon my knees were on fire and a had to stop, headed back to the truck, dropped my pants and put my knees on the AC. Didn’t work. I made it home showered no relief.
In desperation I remembered a buddy telling me about olive oil, he used when he and his lady had an issue with hot peppers.

At that point, I would have rubbed dog crap and camel urine on my knees.

Applied the olive oil and started getting relief in about 10 minutes. Then I remembered the chemistry of capsicums and fats, the active ingredient being oil soluble, and heavy fats, like heavy cream, olive oil to reduce the burn upon tasting. A lot work with hot pepper here in Louisiana.
Olive oil works better.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Rub it in liberally every few hours for a couple days. It’s good for your skin conditions as well. Understand the psoriasis too.
I once used capsaicin arthritis cream on my knee ( arthritis)applied too much, long pants and we were cutting brush on the deer lease in July in south Louisiana. It was hotter than the hinges of hell. By noon my knees were on fire and a had to stop, headed back to the truck, dropped my pants and put my knees on the AC. Didn’t work. I made it home showered no relief.
In desperation I remembered a buddy telling me about olive oil, he used when he and his lady had an issue with hot peppers.

At that point, I would have rubbed dog crap and camel urine on my knees.

Applied the olive oil and started getting relief in about 10 minutes. Then I remembered the chemistry of capsicums and fats, the active ingredient being oil soluble, and heavy fats, like heavy cream, olive oil to reduce the burn upon tasting. A lot work with hot pepper here in Louisiana.
Olive oil works better.

Ah well I can't do it quite like that. Ain't no way I can bring olive oil into work with me. They're mighty particular about what you can bring into the jail... But if it starts to give me trouble, I have some in the pantry.

 

[Hillcountry63]

This is entirely unrelated to the thread but I can now say with utter certainty that I have NO desire to get OC sprayed again. [Expletive omitted] that!

My face feels fine but for some reason my left arm/hand and my right hand have decided to be on fire now. And I really have to go use the necessities...

Johnson and Johnson baby shampoo is the best thing to cut the OC oil with.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Johnson and Johnson baby shampoo is the best thing to cut the OC oil with.

It seems to have done the trick sufficiently, along with dawn. I hope.