Propoganda videos from anti-hunting groups

[firehuntfish]

videos

Some of it is real, some of it is not....The trick is to look at the circumstances of who, where, and how the video was shot to determine it's source and true purpose.

My point remains that no ethical, intellegent hunter is going to film or post a video that is obviously derragatory and offensive.

I do alot of research on these anti-groups and many here would be shocked to see how far they are willing to go to push their agendas. They have deep pockets, and cast a long shadow....

One of my favorite quotes that seems to apply: " I wouldn't be so paranoid if it wasn't for the fact that everyone was out to get me....."

 

[shakari]

My point remains that no ethical, intellegent hunter is going to film or post a video that is obviously derragatory and offensive.

"

The problem is an awful lot of unethical, stupid shooters do post vids that are obviously unethical and highly offensive...... There was one company that I believe has now closed down because the owner got caught up in the rhino poaching thing that used to post no end of dreadful videos........ one particularly dreadful one was of a guy (possibly Russian) bow shooting a lion that was so doped up, it couldn't stand let alone do anything else.

People like that do true hunting no end of damage and the sooner the entire disgraceful industry is closed down the better it will be for true hunting and true hunters.

 

[firehuntfish]

Shakari,

I give you no argument that there is and always will be idiots out there that give any activity they engage a bad name. Hunting is obviously no exception...Did you watch that lioness hunt video that was posted here? What is your opinion on its legitimacy as a real hunt? What is suprising for me, and frankly hard to believe is the extent to which you say these type of unethical, canned hunts are occuring.

You commented earlier in this thread that you were a PH and safari operator for many years before retiring. Did you do alot of dangerous game hunts, and if so, how did you ever conduct any RSA lion hunts for your clients? I'm genuinely very interested, because if what your stating is true, there are lots of PH's and Outfitters that are members of PHASA that are currently conducting canned hunts to the extent of drugging animals, shooting them from trucks, and behind fences etc..? I would really like to hear more from your experiences...

 

[Mike70560]

Firehuntfish,

I do believe the video to be real. There are some rotten people out there. I posted a video on AH a year or so back. A half a dozen guys walk up to about 20 or so yards from a lion while coughing and talking and generally making noise. The lion sits there and lets them shoot it with a bow. I have never seen a wild lion react like that. There were some excuses about why it happened like that, but I know why.

At times I have been questioned about fences and canned hunts. My answer has always been that it does happen in Africa. By the same token I explain to them about the hunts I have been on and the size of the areas and how there are no fences for hundreds of miles. If they believe me fine, if they do not, fine. I need nobody to validate my decision where I hunt. I guarantee everything I have hunted has been ethical. Hunt the Omay, Coutada Nine, or the Selous just once and you will understand. The next time one of your deer hunting buddies ask you about unethical hunts, ask him about the deer hunts that take place in the US. Just like South Africa lion you choose your deer from a picture, book a couple of days, and go shoot it. Since that happens in the States with deer, does that mean your buddies are doing it also? Several years ago we made a meat hunt in the Texas Hill Country. We stayed at the outfitters house near town. We watched his neighbor put a bowhunter on the front of a truck, ride in about a one acre pasture, and shoot a blackbuck antelope. We could not believe it.

I do have a couple of questions for you. What do you consider canned? Is it the size of the property? If so what size? Is it the length of time the lion is in the wild? If so how long should it be? What other criteria do you consider makes a hunt canned?

 

[spike.t]

firehuntfish you are heading into the same discussion that has occurred on here before about canned lion hunting, and i for one would like you to go check the other threads/posts on this site , as without sounding rude it has been done to death, and this to me is just rehashing the same questions and answers etc. as mike says you can hunt the govnt open areas in certain countries where the lions are running around free from any constraints...., unless its roads, large cultivated areas ,govnt quarantine fences, rail tracks .....etc. i am also interested in mikes question as to how big an area you consider to be large enough not to be a canned hunt, as the deer paddocks of 300 to 400 acres, ( if even that big) i see advertised in the states for shooting a massive white tail deer make our apparently piss small 8,000 acres reserve in zambia look fkn enormous. i have hunted/booked hunts and accompanied clients in various african countries in govnt concessions and had great hunts, and believe it or not had great fun/difficult hunting on our place. get used to the fact there will always be arseholes who will put their self glorifying shooting exploits on these social media sites , which i consider to be a load of crap in the first place. as for your question to shakari, i am not sure how observant you are but most lion hunts in sa are probably what you would consider canned, behind fences..... the fact is that the lions have been bred for hunting ,but i believe that the operators that advertise these hunts on AH are operating in big enough reserves to make it an ok hunt....

 

[enysse]

I agree with you spike.t, I think this subject is old news and brings out the worse in everyone on here. We discussed it last year after Dennis's white lion hunt. I think we lose members when we get on this subject. Plus, I then find this stuff whenever I do a yahoo or google search and it links me up to AH.

 

[Mike70560]

Plus, I then find this stuff whenever I do a yahoo or google search and it links me up to AH.

More than we realize

https://www.lionaid.org/news/2013/0...-in-south-africa-reaction-by-the-sa-press.htm

AH photo at top. AH link to article on bottom.

 

[Bobpuckett]

I agree with you spike.t, I think this subject is old news and brings out the worse in everyone on here. We discussed it last year after Dennis's white lion hunt. I think we lose members when we get on this subject. Plus, I then find this stuff whenever I do a yahoo or google search and it links me up to AH.

OH NO not the white Lion hunt! you couldn't run me off this fine site if a white lion was chewing on my ass, but I get the point you guys are making, this stuff is getting to be old it is simple! what is ethical to one may not be ethical to another but to each his own. Who am I to knock his hunting If I'm not paying for him a $70,000 free range hunt in Zim how can I knock him paying $20,000 in RSA.

 

[35bore]

I have to agree with every pro and con to this thread. First off, I would like to make this clear (as I have posted in other threads) I would not be involved in this kind of hunt. NOW, "secondly" to contradict myself, I have met and personally know a gentleman who is the CEO of a company here in the midwest (not going to mention the company), and despite his vast wealth and the fact that he is always finding time for his family and business, he is always short of time to do what he loves to do.....HUNT. He stated to me, that he is lucky to get 5 days a year to pursue his his hunting passion.

So with the demand from work and family he does partake in these sorts of hunts, and without going into a bunch pissing back and forth with the fellows who don't agree, I will state that, given this man's circumstances and if I were in his shoes, I guess i would participate in this sort of hunt as well.

Ethics are of a personal sort. What you and I would not do, may be perfectly acceptable to thousands of other people. Is that wrong???? I don't think so. Personal note, I have never liked head shots on animals(alway considered them unethical). For over 20 years I have preached against them to my fellow hunters. This year guess what,,,, it was the only shot presented so I took it. The animal died, and i don't preach anymore. Will I take another head shot on wild game again, probably not, but I will keep my mouth shut when folks are talking head shots....

 

[shakari]

Firehunfish

O more or less retired in 2011 but FWIW, most of the hunting I did from about 95 onwards was for solely dangerous game or dangerous game and plains game combined but I always made it a strict rule not to hunt dangerous game behind wire which means my dangerous game hunting was not done in RSA. - I did however do a lot of PG hunting there that involved hunting in areas that had DG on them and often involved close encounters with them and I also did quite a lot of voluntary research work (in one of the private areas surrounding the KNP) helping the late Dr Kay Hiscocks who was killed by an elephant a few years.
ago and they very often included very close encounters with various DG.

I have also come across a fair number of these dodgy lion operators over the years and obviously know most of the tricks of the trade and believe me, they're many and varied!

I'm not sure which video you're referring to so can't comment on that.

 

[shakari]

I should also say you shouldn't think these dodgy lion hunts are restricted to RSA because they're not. There's hardly a single African (hunting) country that hasn't had CITES permits issued for live lions being moved across borders for 'travelling circuses' to say nothing of any possible illegal movements.

I've kicked around Africa for decades but I've never once seen a travelling circus anywhere on the continent........



So I guess you can draw your own conclusions about what happens to these 'circus lions'.

 

[Mike70560]

In Zim a couple of years back a licensed Zim operator sold about a dozen lions off a small piece of property in one year. Most hunters never saw their trophies. They even had a stick with a lion paw they would use to imprint the ground to show the client there was a lion in the area. Did I see this myself, no, am I sure it happened, Yes.

And Steve I am certain you have seen some circuses in your day. Thanks for posting.

 

[shakari]

One of the many oft stated claims that cause a wry smile on my face are the claims of cattle killing lions wandering across the various borders from areas that haven't seen a wild lion in decades.

 

[firehuntfish]

Spike.t,

With all due respect, you need to hold your horses a minute.... If you scroll back, I started this thread by inquiring about a video clip that I discovered about the SanWild sanctuary. My question to the Forum was if any members were familiar with this organization and/or the video....I didn't ask for anybody's opinion about lion hunting. All of that came as secondary commentary.

The thread was kind of hijacked from me at that point. I'm not the one that made the claim that most RSA lion hunts are canned hunts.....However, since it was brought up, I began to question the specifics of these claims because I self-admittedly have very limited experiences with lion hunting in Africa. I found it to be eye opening and educational....If you feel this subject has been beaten to death, I'm sorry if this material is redundant to you...Not to sound rude either, but you need to address members other than myself about posting their respective opinions about lion hunting. If this thread is boring you, you have the right not to follow it..

For those of you that have asked what I personally consider to be a canned hunt is really irrelevant to this discussion. What might appeal to me as a challenging, satisfying experience might be viewed as a canned hunt to someone else.... If a hunter enters a hunt with no delusions about the circumstances, and takes an animal legally under those circumstances and it's a trophy to him, I have no problem with that. I have been an invited guest on 2 different dangerous game hunts. One was a leopard hunt were we took a cat on the second night over bait with a rifle. The second hunt was a lion hunt. We hunted for 2 days before getting a glimpse of any cat. We saw 2 young males and 3 females before we saw the big male. We did dozens of stalks and were mock-charged several different times before the hunter got an ethical bow shot. If this cat was under the influence of any drugs, it was cocaine & speed.... We took the cat on the 4th day. I have no idea how big the consession was or how long the cats had been on the property. The only fence I saw was driving in and out of the property. In my opinion, this hunt was far more challenging and exciting than taking a "wild" leopard over bait at night. So, if this was what some would consider a "canned hunt" than I guess I have no problem with a hunt like that given the circumstances.

What I find the most troubling from the input I am getting here are the claims of cats being drugged, shot from behind a fence, from the truck, and deception about how the cat came to be there. To me personally, those things cross the line of ethics, morality, and common sense.

However, if a hunt is conducted legally, and the individual fully understands the circumstances of how the trophy is to be hunted, that's their business. We can start a whole other discusssion on hunting ethics and morality. I personally have opinions on many different hunting methods that I find to be unethical, so I merely abstain from hunting in those ways. Still, that doesn't mean that I feel it's my right to condemn another hunter for his preferences if he is within the law.... Thank you to those who provided constructive answers to my additional inquiries...

 

[Louise Joubert]

Now here sits the cat amongst the pigeons! Unafraid if I am to be targeted as a shoulder mount or whatever I have been named above. Before I get down to the nutty gritty of what is truly happening to lions in this country as a direct result of trophy hunters may I ask you indulge me to explain the video clip of me and the SA Police to humor you all. This clip was taken when I asked four police guys that arrived drunk at a friend's house for a 2nd day in a row to investigate the attack that took place on her person by four guys that assaulted and robber her. Guess some of the great hunters here would have done the same if you were a female and had a fist put in your face and you being threatened!

Now that this is out of the way let's talk about the captive breeding of lions in my country and what is happening to conservation. Once you have given me the opportunity to give you the truth you can either chose to believe me or you can slam me as a nutcase. Whatever the case may be I am at least woman enough to tell the truth. It remains to be seen if you are man enough to accept it.

Lions are bred out like broiler chickens and today there must be close to 6000 animals held in captive breeding projects. Lionesses are mated at every possible opportunity. Their cubs are removed within hours or days of birth and in many instances these cubs are handed over to projects that "make a killing" (excuse the punt) from commercial volunteers in which young people from across the world at asked to help raise lion cubs to return them to the wild. This is off course absolute hogwash.

The lionesses comes back into estrus and is mated again. So it continues. Forced removals that lead to serious veterinary and genetic problems on the long term.

When cubs are older they enter the next phase which is walking with lions; where tourists and guests pay to interact with or walk with lions. This renders the animals totally habituated to mankind and totally imprinted on humans. In reality it means that these lions can never be returned to the wild, neither can they serve any conservation purpose at all. It does however ensure they have no fear of man and make great targets for trophy hunters!

Now lets briefly return the cubs that have been forcefully removed from their mothers. In many instances many females are killed immediately as they do not make popular trophies; normally with a single hammer blow to the head. However now that the industry has found a new commercial opportunity to the Chinese market in which lion bones are sold after lions are simply shot or euthanized by their owners when they are no longer wanted, more cubs are spared this fate.

So once the lion breeding industry have bred lion cubs like broiler chickens, have passed them onto commercial volunteer, tourism of even wedding function venues to be played with, photographed and interacted with; and after they have been walked alongside humans, these young lions are returned to breeding farms where they await their death at the hands of trophy hunters or their owners that will sell their carcasses to the Chinese.

You can remain in denial; taking part in and supporting one of the most highly unethical and immoral wildlife industries in my country or you can for a change try to regain the ethics of your industry. Despite what you may or may not believe I know many hunters that despise the captive lion breeding industry! In industry that does not just canned hunt lions but many other species such as leopards, cheetahs, African wild dogs and most hyena species.

I guess many hunters are the reason why so little respect remains for your sport and while hunting organizations continue to hide behind the facts more and more people will continue to turn against you! No longer is there a mystery behind the Big African Hunters; no more can this industry claim they contribute to conservation in South Africa.

In my country the term sustainable utilization has become nothing more than an excuse for blatant exploitation and in effect it does not contribute to bio-diversity conservation. It does however contribute in a big way towards selective species preservation where animals are ultimately expected to pay their way; with their lives unfortunately!

And in closing for those of you that chose to believe this is not happening in our country and that you are hunting wild lions may I state for the record you must be pretty stupid! It is happening and most of the lions hunted in this country has been captive bred! I have personally witnessed a number of these so-called ethical hunts while working in the game capture and relocation industry!

 

[BRICKBURN]

Sadly the video of your interaction with the SAPS demonstrates, at minimum, an extremely poor negotiating method for convincing the SAPS to investigate properly.
Sorry your friend was assaulted.

Your sexist generalization demonstrates your short sighted prejudice. Women hunt too!
You are offering an opinion, the "truth" is another matter to be determined.

Returning the lions to the wild - Yup, absolute hogwash.

It is amazing how Walt Disney has them all running over to save the lions. Exactly what most anti hunting groups prey on to get donations.
Then these keen creative entrepreneurs in RSA manage to get them paying and volunteering with the lions.
I guess ignorance is bliss. Perhaps if they were educated properly about conservation they could not be duped by anti hunting groups or lion release programs.
I guess P.T. Barnum was right - "There is a sucker born every minute"

You may know some hunters that disagree with captive bred lion hunts, so do I.

And in closing for those of you that chose to believe……... that you are hunting wild lions may I state for the record you must be pretty stupid! ………. most of the lions hunted in this country has been captive bred! ……..

Words to the wise for anyone booking a hunt. Make sure you know what you are buying.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

In many instances many females are killed immediately as they do not make popular trophies; normally with a single hammer blow to the head.

Actually, my experience shows that more females get hunted simply because they offer better "value" compared to the price of a male Lion.

 

[daved]

Mrs Joubert
In all fairness, lions aside, you wish to stop ALL HUNTING at any means.
Even if it means making false movies with people we know would never conduct such a hunt?
Even if it means the mass slaughter of lions in BOTSWANA'S former hunting blocks to locals trying to raise livestock .
You're plan to save marginal areas outside of national parks , is to see them DIE rather than be hunted, how deluded are you?

This is a hunting site frequented by conservationists and nature lovers who support the sustainable use and proliferation of ALL wildlife outside of national parks.

You and all the other short sighted MONEY COLLECTING organizations have been deemed the biggest threat to wildlife outside of parks, AHEAD OF POACHERS! Due to your UNSCIENTIFIC POLICIES YOU PEDDLE.

I am not interested in your opinion or your views and will not waste a second more of my time debating with you on your emotionally challenged agenda as they will result in all of Africa's game outside of Parks disappearing , just like in Kenya.
Good day and good bye

 

[Limcroma Safaris]

I'm a bit skeptical that out of the blue, you would show up on an African hunting forum in an attempt to justify your point of view to us... The word troll comes to mind, but nevertheless, if you are indeed the real Louise Joubert, I have some advice for you...

You are obviously extremely passionate about your "cause". This passion has caused to you act out of emotion rather than through rational thought, and common sense, and a point of view based in scientific fact. If you really do care so much about the plight of African lions and other game animals, I challenge you to educate yourself on the truly effective and proven methods of game conservation that actually work such as legal, managed, sustainable hunting.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

This is all over Africa unethical practices caught on video all over Africa, anti want to stop all hunting not just canned lion.

The worst hunters IMHO are those who place themselves on a pedestal because of an area they hunted once or twice.

We have enough pressure on hunting, from Anti groups, as a big UP I need to compliment Ivan Carter for not adopting a snooty attitude as we see on expos such as SCI and DSC, this proves to myself that the man understands the core issue.


This is not a pro lion shooting post but it seems to be focused once again on SA. Which is absolute nonsense, there are scrap outfitters in every country in Africa and the world.

I do also apologize as I did not read all the posts, but I can see where it's going.

I have met Michael a couple times and thought I should post this.

My best always