Primitive North American Stone Weaponry - Mysteries

[Pablo]

Thanks for sharing this info, guys! The Witte Museum in San Antonio sponsors several hikes/tours in the Sanderson and Langtry, TX area to see pictographs and prehistoric campsites in the canyons. We have gone on three, and have enjoyed them a lot. One is called the Bonfire Shelter, where the natives stompeded giant bison over the cliff to where they were then cooked and eaten. Bones from giant sloths, bears and other animals have been found. The excavation is still ongoing.

 

[grand veneur]

Don't forget copper works in North America. Though many were around the Great Lakes, the southeast had its share. Rudimentary copper digs have been found from before the time of Pocahantas. There is a new theory that the lost settlers of Roanoke were taken as "beaters of copper" by the Indians who valued copper ornamentation. That skill would have been one of few which would have saved them, made them valuable to keep alive.

Copper was worked in America, but as far as I know, bigger tools were not made with it at the time BC we are talking about.The Purepécha in northwest Mexico are said to have made weapons with copper, which caused a lot of problems the Aztecs, but here we are in our Middle Ages. At the time Pocahontas the more or less good technological transfer was already underway.

 

[deewayne2003]

You peaked my curiosity and starting looking into it, my opinion is that these stones may have common features but used for different purposes.

Example - Look at the 2 circled in red, I started thinking that the oval holes appeared to be in the hook shaped stones and I believe that would be for mounting on a Atlatl for use as the hook where the end of the dart/shaft connects to the Atlatl.

Then I came across this video of a man who has put lots of time into Atlatl history and manufacture; he also addresses banner stones.

He addresses banner stones @4:00..... and at 4:30 he mentions that his have oval handles.

As for the ones with round holes, I think they may have been used in an opposite fashion to the "weighted wirl" theory - Imagine the stone being used as a shaft straightener/hone while the shaft of the projectile is spun with a bow like a fire drill. So if these stones made the production of frequently lost or broken atlatl shafts more efficient it would explain why early people would be willing to invest so much time in their manufacturing.

Think of it like a welders jig for commonly produced objects like H braces for fences, once you invest the time in making the jig, you can exponentially increased your production rate of a commonly consumed item.

 

[Randy F]

This stuff fascinates me...probably way more than is healthy.

 

[rookhawk]

You peaked my curiosity and starting looking into it, my opinion is that these stones may have common features but used for different purposes.

Example - Look at the 2 circled in red, I started thinking that the oval holes appeared to be in the hook shaped stones and I believe that would be for mounting on a Atlatl for use as the hook where the end of the dart/shaft connects to the Atlatl.
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Then I came across this video of a man who has put lots of time into Atlatl history and manufacture; he also addresses banner stones.

He addresses banner stones @4:00..... and at 4:30 he mentions that his have oval handles.

As for the ones with round holes, I think they may have been used in an opposite fashion to the "weighted wirl" theory - Imagine the stone being used as a shaft straightener/hone while the shaft of the projectile is spun with a bow like a fire drill. So if these stones made the production of frequently lost or broken atlatl shafts more efficient it would explain why early people would be willing to invest so much time in their manufacturing.

Think of it like a welders jig for commonly produced objects like H braces for fences, once you invest the time in making the jig, you can exponentially increased your production rate of a commonly consumed item.

A few things:

1.) The video goes on to assume it’s a tool for making shafts or cordage. I don’t think that makes sense, it is an incredibly complicated design and tooling to make shafts could be made with wood and grit much easier. The other thing is that the banner stones show no signs of wear marks from being held and they are of a design where they would easily chip or break if something were to hit them while they have rotational force. Lastly, you’d need a set of them, just like you need a set of tapered dies to make round arrows today, sizing them down through several. We have no evidence that people owned more than one banner stone.

2.) Did you notice how terrible the atlatl darts flew? Put that banner stone 8”-18” from the point and it would have 85% FOC, basically a bullet flying with merely a metaphorical string attached, just like my heavy modern arrows with all the weight up front.

3.) If it weren’t for purposes of being on the front section of the dart, and it was a weight on the handle, it would be a terrible design. a.) you don’t need to drill a hole, just lash on any old rock and save yourself a month’s work. B.) symmetry wouldn’t be required at all if it were for the handle. C.) The bannerstone’s hole would require the handle to be made from multiple pieces of handle to get it onto the stick, thus all the force would amplify strain on the hook portion of the handle that was forced to be a second piece of material. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

4.) In a pre-Neolithic society that didn’t work with any metals, stone was the heaviest thing they had. The FOC of darts and arrows was just terrible because the projectile was light and the shafts were heavy..the opposite of physics and modern archery’s proven best practices. But put it on the 6’ long dart near the front and you’ve created a ton more momentum and straightened the flight of the dart so it glides straight and hits hard.

Just my thoughts. All these atlatl experts have tested bannerstones on the handles and all reported it did not enhance the precision of their throws, rather it reduced precision.

 

[deewayne2003]

Just because they were ancient doesn’t mean they we’re ignorant.

This guy seems knowledgeable although a little hippie for me but he’s definitely passionate able the field.

@3:18 he shows a banner stone in progress that was found.

The use of a hollow cane bit + abrasives is some really smart work by minimizing cutting surface and effort while removing maximum material.

My theory- these stones obviously took considerable time to bore out and were a part of everyday life for them; so once the hole was bored they would over time carve and ornate the outer surface of the stone into different shapes depending on the norm of their tribe/clan.

I also hypothesize the hook shaped ones were atlatl hook tips that would add weight and energy while throwing heavy shafts; and being stone probably weigh several ounces and would make a great weapon much like a mid evil war hammer with a spike for piercing suits of armor.

 

[fourfive8]

More trivia Most specialists in this field agree that many points are mis-assigned. With most points being called “arrow points”. This photo attempts to show scale, with use listed.

BTW, what is correct term for atlatl projectile with shaft? Bolt, spear, arrow??… IDK

L to R: 6” Clovis point (thrusting spear), atlatl point, arrow point

 

[Red Leg]

Another area that is interesting to delve into is Pre-Columbian pottery. I have a number of lovely Central American pieces that we picked up in auctions (have a care - lots of fakes out there made exactly as the real ones were). However, the pride of my collection is an Anasazi / Mogollon bowl which came off a privately owned ranch on the New Mexico - Texas border (as did the shards) almost forty years ago. The bowl was a surface find and covered an area about three feet square. Amazingly every shard was there when reassembled.

 

[Red Leg]

More trivia Most specialists in this field agree that many points are mis-assigned. With most points being called “arrow points”. This photo attempts to show scale, with use listed.

BTW, what is correct term for atlatl projectile with shaft? Bolt, spear, arrow??… IDK

L to R: 6” Clovis point (thrusting spear), atlatl point, arrow point

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I think that is absolutely correct with respect the "arrowheads." I have found a few actual arrow points in the Texas - New Mexico border area, but never yet one in central Texas. All are either atlatl dart points, spear points, or knives.

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, thanks. Atlatl “dart”. Thinking back on it, I believe that is considered the correct term!

 

[sureshot375]

I ran your post past a local Native American expert and here was his reply….

Yep. I’ve got a few including one that was partially complete and never drilled through the center. I’ll be glad to show you one in person. Their use is still a subject of some debate but the broad consensus is that they were used in some capacity as atlatl counterweights - possibly to increase flywheel effect on the forward swing. Others say they were purely ornamental. His comment about added stability for balance while stationary is also possible but I doubt they were use to aid a hunter to sit longer and more motionless. Some are extremely ornate and strongly suggest use as a symbol of power or higher social status but others are plain and totally utilitarian. Many are found broken indicating they were damaged in use. The winged bannerstones are the ones I would suspect to be entirely ceremonial because it took so much time to make them and they’re also especially huge compared to most. I’d say there’s zero chance they were thrown with the projectile to increase impact power. Even the small ones were so comparatively heavy that they would have made the bolts drop like rocks after firing and there’s not enough strength in the human arm to throw them hard enough to carry force and added dense weight very far. That would have made them limited to use in close quarter kills and the atlatl was specifically an innovation designed to give projectile points greater range. Also, almost all ceremonial objects were more ornate versions of regularly used tools and objects. Such as pottery where you have plain bowls and then ones with animal effigies like ducks, raptors, otter, gators, etc built into them. Thus, it’s hard to believe that as many bannerstones as there are, that all of them served no real world, practical purpose. They wouldn’t have invested that much time into a broad class of objects that took so much time to make. In the era that were made (which is of the Archaic period) life was very hard, bands were nomadic and time was a premium commodity and waste of it and energy, calories and so forth could be fatal. They could also have been used in connection with leather and wood additions to the stone form. Similarly, egg stones make no sense when you see the stone form only but if you understand they were made in twos, wrapped in leather, joined with a leather strap and slung at birds in flight to fall them, they make perfect sense.

 

[fourfive8]

Us kids? We dropped most of the arrow heads accidentally on the concrete sidewalks where they inevitably broke in two...

Uhh ouch! Just imagine dropping and breaking a 10,000 to 15,000 year-old Clovis point that possibly killed the last mammoth in North America.

 

[steve white]

Well, apparently we have been calling some atlatl points arrow heads. OT a bit, but what about the black nasca stones engraved with men killing dinosaurs? I mean the REAL ones with microscopic algae or some such growth in the grooves, not the fake ones with a dino standing beside a coke machine.

 

[fourfive8]

Here's the collection of pieces I've got. You can see the bannerstone in one of the photos. I need to find nice display cases to properly present them. I believe all of these were from Georgia by the inference many of the tools are labeled as such.

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Quite a nice collection with lots of variety! I see mixed in there some what many call Eastern Woodland forms... IMO very cool points. I see some axe and hammer heads but I also see some of those smooth, chisel shaped forms that are commonly listed as hammer or axe heads... but I never could figure the hafting or actual use of those??? I have a couple or three that I'll post photos of and simply call them "mystery axe heads or hand chisels".

 

[fourfive8]

Mystery axe heads or hand chisels... Larger one is about 3 1/2" long

 

[Red Leg]

Mystery axe heads or hand chisels... Larger one is about 3 1/2" long

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Weapons or bone breakers? Where did they originate?