Primitive North American Stone Weaponry - Mysteries

[Pablo]

Thanks for sharing this info, guys! The Witte Museum in San Antonio sponsors several hikes/tours in the Sanderson and Langtry, TX area to see pictographs and prehistoric campsites in the canyons. We have gone on three, and have enjoyed them a lot. One is called the Bonfire Shelter, where the natives stompeded giant bison over the cliff to where they were then cooked and eaten. Bones from giant sloths, bears and other animals have been found. The excavation is still ongoing.

 

[grand veneur]

Don't forget copper works in North America. Though many were around the Great Lakes, the southeast had its share. Rudimentary copper digs have been found from before the time of Pocahantas. There is a new theory that the lost settlers of Roanoke were taken as "beaters of copper" by the Indians who valued copper ornamentation. That skill would have been one of few which would have saved them, made them valuable to keep alive.

Copper was worked in America, but as far as I know, bigger tools were not made with it at the time BC we are talking about.The Purepécha in northwest Mexico are said to have made weapons with copper, which caused a lot of problems the Aztecs, but here we are in our Middle Ages. At the time Pocahontas the more or less good technological transfer was already underway.

 

[deewayne2003]

You peaked my curiosity and starting looking into it, my opinion is that these stones may have common features but used for different purposes.

Example - Look at the 2 circled in red, I started thinking that the oval holes appeared to be in the hook shaped stones and I believe that would be for mounting on a Atlatl for use as the hook where the end of the dart/shaft connects to the Atlatl.

Then I came across this video of a man who has put lots of time into Atlatl history and manufacture; he also addresses banner stones.

He addresses banner stones @4:00..... and at 4:30 he mentions that his have oval handles.

As for the ones with round holes, I think they may have been used in an opposite fashion to the "weighted wirl" theory - Imagine the stone being used as a shaft straightener/hone while the shaft of the projectile is spun with a bow like a fire drill. So if these stones made the production of frequently lost or broken atlatl shafts more efficient it would explain why early people would be willing to invest so much time in their manufacturing.

Think of it like a welders jig for commonly produced objects like H braces for fences, once you invest the time in making the jig, you can exponentially increased your production rate of a commonly consumed item.

 

[Randy F]

This stuff fascinates me...probably way more than is healthy.

 

[rookhawk]

You peaked my curiosity and starting looking into it, my opinion is that these stones may have common features but used for different purposes.

Example - Look at the 2 circled in red, I started thinking that the oval holes appeared to be in the hook shaped stones and I believe that would be for mounting on a Atlatl for use as the hook where the end of the dart/shaft connects to the Atlatl.
View attachment 629799

Then I came across this video of a man who has put lots of time into Atlatl history and manufacture; he also addresses banner stones.

He addresses banner stones @4:00..... and at 4:30 he mentions that his have oval handles.

As for the ones with round holes, I think they may have been used in an opposite fashion to the "weighted wirl" theory - Imagine the stone being used as a shaft straightener/hone while the shaft of the projectile is spun with a bow like a fire drill. So if these stones made the production of frequently lost or broken atlatl shafts more efficient it would explain why early people would be willing to invest so much time in their manufacturing.

Think of it like a welders jig for commonly produced objects like H braces for fences, once you invest the time in making the jig, you can exponentially increased your production rate of a commonly consumed item.

A few things:

1.) The video goes on to assume it’s a tool for making shafts or cordage. I don’t think that makes sense, it is an incredibly complicated design and tooling to make shafts could be made with wood and grit much easier. The other thing is that the banner stones show no signs of wear marks from being held and they are of a design where they would easily chip or break if something were to hit them while they have rotational force. Lastly, you’d need a set of them, just like you need a set of tapered dies to make round arrows today, sizing them down through several. We have no evidence that people owned more than one banner stone.

2.) Did you notice how terrible the atlatl darts flew? Put that banner stone 8”-18” from the point and it would have 85% FOC, basically a bullet flying with merely a metaphorical string attached, just like my heavy modern arrows with all the weight up front.

3.) If it weren’t for purposes of being on the front section of the dart, and it was a weight on the handle, it would be a terrible design. a.) you don’t need to drill a hole, just lash on any old rock and save yourself a month’s work. B.) symmetry wouldn’t be required at all if it were for the handle. C.) The bannerstone’s hole would require the handle to be made from multiple pieces of handle to get it onto the stick, thus all the force would amplify strain on the hook portion of the handle that was forced to be a second piece of material. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

4.) In a pre-Neolithic society that didn’t work with any metals, stone was the heaviest thing they had. The FOC of darts and arrows was just terrible because the projectile was light and the shafts were heavy..the opposite of physics and modern archery’s proven best practices. But put it on the 6’ long dart near the front and you’ve created a ton more momentum and straightened the flight of the dart so it glides straight and hits hard.

Just my thoughts. All these atlatl experts have tested bannerstones on the handles and all reported it did not enhance the precision of their throws, rather it reduced precision.

 

[deewayne2003]

Just because they were ancient doesn’t mean they we’re ignorant.

This guy seems knowledgeable although a little hippie for me but he’s definitely passionate able the field.

@3:18 he shows a banner stone in progress that was found.

The use of a hollow cane bit + abrasives is some really smart work by minimizing cutting surface and effort while removing maximum material.

My theory- these stones obviously took considerable time to bore out and were a part of everyday life for them; so once the hole was bored they would over time carve and ornate the outer surface of the stone into different shapes depending on the norm of their tribe/clan.

I also hypothesize the hook shaped ones were atlatl hook tips that would add weight and energy while throwing heavy shafts; and being stone probably weigh several ounces and would make a great weapon much like a mid evil war hammer with a spike for piercing suits of armor.