Pre-64 Winchester 70 9.3x64 Brenneke - The mystery continues

[deewayne2003]

So I had posted before about a rifle that an elderly friend of mine has; while visiting him yesterday I had the chance to take more pictures in hopes of finding more information.

Pre 64 Winchester M70 - 9.3x64 Brenneke

I have read that Winchester made some rifles in metric calibers to try and enter the European market in the late 1930's; however the Serial number puts this rifle at being manufactured 1948-1949.

Fellow forum member "Professor Mawla" pointed out that he has seen a Winchester Western ammunition advertisement from the late 1940's that showed 9.3x64 as being offered; however actual documentation about Winchester making 9.3x64 rifles is incredibly hard to find.... if it even exists.

I think this rifle was made in the Winchester custom shop as a "dealer sample" or perhaps a rare special order.

Notice this rifle is in the "standard grade" configuration with subtle differences that are well done and rare, such as....

Checkered bolt release button & jeweld bolt

And a well done leather covered recoil pad

Before someone chimes in with "Contact the Cody museum they can tell you all about it!" - WRONG!!! their records are incomplete as many of the factory records were lost.

Or "Contact Winchesters they can tell you all about it"..... WRONG! - Winchester was less than helpful and their records are incomplete.

I even emailed Roger Rule to try and get information and never heard back from him.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Very cool rifle. It definitely appears to be post war.

 

[mark-hunter]

Ok, I just wanted to suggest to contact Winchester... so I will not do that now.

With all these options exausted, the question remains who is reamining authority on firearm history in US?
Would it be possible to check for info with NRA firearms museum?

Another guy, which you may try to contact, and I see that he usally (or at least - sometimes) replies is Dave Petzal of field and stream magazine, moreover, he made several articles on winchester 70 rifles.

BTW above rifle of your friend is beautiful!

 

[Ray B]

Two possible sources of your information:

On Gunbroker forums Ask the Experts is a poster named Bert H who has extensive information and may be helpful;

also;

Pauline Muerrle was and engraver that worked in the New Haven custom shop until it closed. She wouldn't have been around when your rifle was made (no one is), but she may know some of the details about the variations.

 

[spike.t]

Neat rifle...hope you find out about it...be interesting to hear

 

[rookhawk]

Please contact Roger Rule again politely.

Everyone else's opinion on the matter is moot regarding the marketplace. If you want better results from Roger, capitalism works great. "Mr. Rule, I would like to purchase your services to render an opinion on the authenticity of this rifle". That activity might cost $200-$500 and is worth EVERY DAMNED PENNY.

Right now, that gun is a worthless custom gun built on a Win-70 action. $700-$900.

IF Roger Rule puts a letter together attesting it is authentic and original, that gun could go anywhere from $6000-$35000 (or more if a bidding war happens between super-collectors)

Sure you can gather opinions from retailers, I'm sure Tony Galazan would give one, but then again, I would wager he could be paid to say a banana is an original pre-64 as well. Roger Rule is the published authority, he is arms-length from any monetary incentive related to its possible sale in the future, and he isn't incented to bolster his credibility by selling the rifle on your behalf. (or your friends)

I'm not a qualified pre-64 expert, but the gun rubs me as "wrong" without any facts to go by. Everything is a bit too clean. The stock is a bit too nice. The pad is a bit too modern. (they did offer custom pigskin) The stamp just seems a bit different. The stock sheen seems a bit too good. It also seems to have some sort of jeweling on the bolt like a super grade and yet the claw extractor is perfectly blued, yet the extractor claw ring on the bolt is worn? I hope I'm totally wrong as I love to hear about rare guns that weren't thought to exist.

Roger Rule is your guy.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

A great rifle in an excellent caliber.

 

[Ray B]

Beware of Oscar Wilde.

 

[deewayne2003]

"Roger Rule is your guy.".... Ok, I actually just spoke on the phone with Mr. Rule; and he said that he does not do authentication letters as he does not want to be in the middle of an argument and even if he did, he would have to have the rifle in hand to do so and he lives in Hawaii.

He wished me good luck and that was that.....

 

[rookhawk]

"Roger Rule is your guy.".... IF ONLY I COULD ACTUALLY GET IN CONTACT WITH HIM!

And yes - my previous multiple attempts were as polite and factual as I can convey through emails.

Did you follow the Dear Mr. with I have money to give you?

I always sort those to the top of my inbox.

Free advice and bill collectors towards the bottom.

 

[deewayne2003]

@rookhawk..... When I spoke with him on the phone today he was 100% NOT INTERESTED!

He lives in Hawaii and $500 is just not motivating for him.

 

[rookhawk]

@rookhawk..... When I spoke with him on the phone today he was 100% NOT INTERESTED!

He lives in Hawaii and $500 is just not motivating for him.

Bummer. I would have thought his curiosity would have got him very interested.

 

[GuttormG]

Looking at the caliber marking I would say this is a re-bore, the ", it do not really match the rest of the markings in size and depth.

 

[spike.t]

Did you follow the Dear Mr. with I have money to give you?

I always sort those to the top of my inbox.

Free advice and bill collectors towards the bottom.

I have tried not to..but...jeez you come out with some shit....you post informative information.....but cant seem to help yourself and go bang....and as I have said in the past...here is more condescending arrogant bullshit.... ....

 

[Ray B]

I checked a 1939 and 1953 Shooter's Bible and Philip B Sharpe's Rifle in America and no listing of a 9.3x64 being available/offered even as ammunition. Possibly something post war but I don't have any intervening copies.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Right now, that gun is a worthless custom gun built on a Win-70 action. $700-$900.

I hate to point this out but I'm sure many others would disagree. @deewayne2003 Its a shame your not in the UK otherwise I have a good many contacts that would give you an honest and free appraisal (ok maybe for a few pints down the pub).

How many of them are there in circulation and what is demand like?? This is simple economics. Supply and demand. That's what dictates the price of anything. At the moment there is a huge demand for puppies (the dog type not boobies) in the UK. A pal of mine just sold a litter of 6 pups at £1200 EACH. In a normal year they are £250-300 pups.

Im just an engineer not an economist but even I get the supply and demand thing.

At the end of the day an items worth is what it is to the owner.

BTW Its a beauty of a rifle. Love the wood

 

[Roller]

Regardless of the provenance, cool rifle man. I would take it over 3 POS CZ550s (AHR "fixed" or not).

 

[Professor Mawla]

@deewayne2003
I know exactly what we need . The answer that you seek , is in Winchester Western’s 1948 catalog . All we must do now , is find a gentleman ( or lady ) who possesses that catalog . At least the pages between 18 and 27 .

 

[spike.t]

Regardless of the provenance, cool rifle man. I would take it over 3 POS CZ550s (AHR "fixed" or not).

What's 3 POS CZ550s.....?

 

[Red Leg]

I hate to point this out but I'm sure many others would disagree. @deewayne2003 Its a shame your not in the UK otherwise I have a good many contacts that would give you an honest and free appraisal (ok maybe for a few pints down the pub).

How many of them are there in circulation and what is demand like?? This is simple economics. Supply and demand. That's what dictates the price of anything. At the moment there is a huge demand for puppies (the dog type not boobies) in the UK. A pal of mine just sold a litter of 6 pups at £1200 EACH. In a normal year they are £250-300 pups.

Im just an engineer not an economist but even I get the supply and demand thing.

At the end of the day an items worth is what it is to the owner.

BTW Its a beauty of a rifle. Love the wood

With all due respect Norfolk, Winchester model 70 collecting (like Parkers, Colts, LC Smiths et al) has nothing to do with anything a British gunmaker or dealer could offer. Value is based upon rarity and percentage of ORIGINAL condition. Rook is absolutely correct. That rifle could be a cool $1200 shooter (as a shooter I think it beats $800 just because of the caliber.) If it was actually built by Winchester in that caliber, but has subsequently been "freshened" by lightly redoing the stock or even adding that pad three days after it left the factory, it is a 1.5 to 3K gun depending upon how badly a collector wanted an extremely rare but "ruined" rifle. If by some miracle it is in fact original, and it can be proven to be so, then the sky's the limit in a specialized auction. I should also offer, that Winchesters of all sorts of rarity have been concocted by everything from shade tree butchers to brilliant craftsman who make painting forgery look like a hobby. I have just such a beautiful resurrection in my gunroom in the form of a Model 94 take down rifle. It is just about a perfect, and shoots beautifully. It is a 94, it is a takedown, but it isn't original.

Rule should have known if any were made, but, indeed, he likely would not be able to actually authenticate it without having it in hand.

Did you try these guys? https://winchestercollector.org/ You will likely have to join to get a meaningful response, but they were extremely helpful with a two barrel Model 21 set that I own (discovered it was original in spite of wildly different barrel serial numbers).