Politics

[Saul]

Agree that many American's are clueless. Especially the younger ones doing the tearing down. How else can it be explained that statues of abolitionists, Fredrick Douglas, Cervantes (a slave) are torn down or defaced.

What seems funny is that the left, BLM, ANTIFA, Democrats are tearing down and defacing statues of Democrats for the most part.

Also odd was about four years ago when Democrats wanted to remove Andrew Jackson, the founder of the Democratic party from the $20 bill and replace it with Harriet Tubman, a Bible and gun toting Republican.


Doctors say a good laugh a day extends your life. The irony/humor of 2020 will see me living to 100!

Agreed. I believe that a vast majority of protesters are actually upset about racial injustice and are also willing to have a civil discussion. However, these are not the protesters that make good news. It is the rioters and vandals tearing down the statue. While I hope that some of them are at least doing it for ideological reasons, I suspect that most just want to cause indiscriminate harm. That is the only explanation I have for such actions.

If republicans really wanted to flip the narrative on this issue, they should be emphasizing the beliefs of famous abolitionists and civil rights activists. Liberals should have to argue for gun control against the words of Angela Davis, MLK, Malcolm X, and Harriet Tubman. Not to mention, most black people are religiously conservative. I bet that hearing liberal politicians try to talk their way out of these issues would turn off a large segment of the black voter base.

 

[Wheels]

 

[Saul]

Glad to see that UK finally gave Huawei the boot.

 

[Wheels]

If republicans really wanted to flip the narrative on this issue, they should be emphasizing the beliefs of famous abolitionists and civil rights activists. Liberals should have to argue for gun control against the words of Angela Davis, MLK, Malcolm X, and Harriet Tubman. Not to mention, most black people are religiously conservative. I bet that hearing liberal politicians try to talk their way out of these issues would turn off a large segment of the black voter base.

Trump has pushed this, as have some other conservatives. The MSM will not cover it. If an individual relies on the MSM for all their news, they will not hear everything that is said.

Also, many Republicans are RINO's and either serve the uni-party or don't have the strength of character to stand up for what they believe for fear of being condemned.

Agreed. I believe that a vast majority of protesters are actually upset about racial injustice and are also willing to have a civil discussion. However, these are not the protesters that make good news. It is the rioters and vandals tearing down the statue. While I hope that some of them are at least doing it for ideological reasons, I suspect that most just want to cause indiscriminate harm. That is the only explanation I have for such actions.

There seem to be three types of people in the protests. Legitimate protesters who have a gripe and want things changed. I don't know anybody who would disagree with their right to protest. Two, street thugs who are out to loot or destroy. Three, ANTIFA or similar type organizers who are pushing to have a Kent State 2.0.

Lets look at Minneapolis. The problem for ANTIFA is that by the end of the third day in Minneapolis, the leaders on the ground were gone, and the protesters just were people trying to figure out what to do. The antagonizers were gone. What happened. In my opinion, two things. Trump declared ANTIFA a terrorist organization and brought in the military. Now the leaders can be picked up by federal LE/military and prosecuted. The leaders were arrested and are facing a minimum of five years. They thought the local DA would rotate them out. ANTIFA even had attorney's lined up to bail them out. Imagine the leaders surprise when they were picked up by the feds and arraignment wasn't down at the county. Second, Trump approved the military to come in. This was just what ANTIFA wanted. A bunch of military in tanks. Imagine the surprise when a squad of special forces in street clothes swings up in an unmarked, untagged van, grabs a guy and speeds off. Certainly not the military response ANTIFA was wanting to make a spectacle with.


Look at history. The poor and abused masses start revolutions. This is not what is happening in 2020 America. The ones trying to overthrow the system are the sons and daughters of the elite ruling and professional class. They are the product of the American education system, primary - grad school. If our education system isn't corrected soon, there will be a second generation just like them. At that point, "a Republic if you can keep it", will take on a new meaning.

 

[Saul]

Trump has pushed this, as have some other conservatives. The MSM will not cover it. If an individual relies on the MSM for all their news, they will not hear everything that is said.

Also, many Republicans are RINO's and either serve the uni-party or don't have the strength of character to stand up for what they believe for fear of being condemned.

They have pushed it, in a way, just without much enthusiasm. More often than not, they parade around a black commentator toeing the party line. This does nothing to excite the black population who feels forgotten and oppressed by the political establishment. I was watching Bill Maher and he had on a rapper named Killer Mike who is a vocal supporter of 2A rights. He is the type of person that the Republicans need to be recruiting.

There seem to be three types of people in the protests. Legitimate protesters who have a gripe and want things changed. I don't know anybody who would disagree with their right to protest. Two, street thugs who are out to loot or destroy. Three, ANTIFA or similar type organizers who are pushing to have a Kent State 2.0.

Lets look at Minneapolis. The problem for ANTIFA is that by the end of the third day in Minneapolis, the leaders on the ground were gone, and the protesters just were people trying to figure out what to do. The antagonizers were gone. What happened. In my opinion, two things. Trump declared ANTIFA a terrorist organization and brought in the military. Now the leaders can be picked up by federal LE/military and prosecuted. The leaders were arrested and are facing a minimum of five years. They thought the local DA would rotate them out. ANTIFA even had attorney's lined up to bail them out. Imagine the leaders surprise when they were picked up by the feds and arraignment wasn't down at the county. Second, Trump approved the military to come in. This was just what ANTIFA wanted. A bunch of military in tanks. Imagine the surprise when a squad of special forces in street clothes swings up in an unmarked, untagged van, grabs a guy and speeds off. Certainly not the military response ANTIFA was wanting to make a spectacle with.

Look at history. The poor and abused masses start revolutions. This is not what is happening in 2020 America. The ones trying to overthrow the system are the sons and daughters of the elite ruling and professional class. They are the product of the American education system, primary - grad school. If our education system isn't corrected soon, there will be a second generation just like them. At that point, "a Republic if you can keep it", will take on a new meaning.

I think the failure of ANTIFA is that they do not have a cohesive ideology or organizational structure. They are mostly a bunch of twenty-somethings who talk a big game and get everyone riled up online, but they lack the means and the motivation to actually accomplish anything. Hard to form freedom fighters from a disparate group of internet "trolls."

It is quite interesting to see a "revolution" from those with actual institutional and socioeconomic power, instead of the actual masses. Sort of like how the Bolsheviks (meaning majority) took over the communist party from the Mensheviks (meaning minority) despite the fact that the Bolsheviks were the actual minority in the party. Then again, history is written by the victor.

How would you propose that we correct our education system?

 

[Brent in Az]

[emoji848]

 

[Wheels]

They have pushed it, in a way, just without much enthusiasm. More often than not, they parade around a black commentator toeing the party line. This does nothing to excite the black population who feels forgotten and oppressed by the political establishment. I was watching Bill Maher and he had on a rapper named Killer Mike who is a vocal supporter of 2A rights. He is the type of person that the Republicans need to be recruiting.

I agree that the Republican's have done a poor job of reaching out to minorities. This has always been interesting since they freed the slaves from the Democrats.

Trump is different. He has reached out to minorities his entire business career. It will be interesting to see what percent of the black vote Trump get's in 2020. He got 8% in 2016. He will probably get a significantly higher percent in 2020. If it is over 15% he probably has a landslide in the EC.

I think the failure of ANTIFA is that they do not have a cohesive ideology or organizational structure. They are mostly a bunch of twenty-somethings who talk a big game and get everyone riled up online, but they lack the means and the motivation to actually accomplish anything. Hard to form freedom fighters from a disparate group of internet "trolls."

I will take a different viewpoint on ANTIFA. I think they are very well organized, and go up much higher and much deeper than the general public realizes. I also think there are a number of Saul Alinski acolyte's at the top. Look at how well they destroyed the black part of Minneapolis in three days. ANTIFA was prepared for a George Floyd. They just didn't know where or when it would take place. They dealt with the logistic issues in one day and had the city burning. ANTIFA being made a terrorist organization and the military and federal SWAT teams completely changed the ANTIFA paradigm. ANTIFA now has street organizers that have to figure out if they are willing to go to prison for 5-25 years for a night of rioting. They are having second thoughts. If ANTIFA isn't made a terrorist organization then CHAZ in Seattle, Portland, NYC, would have taken on a completely different perspective IMO. CHAZ's would have sprung up in every Democratic controlled city in America. It is amazing what two or three 25 year old NCO's dressed up like ANTIFA with a mic under their mask, telling who the ring leaders of ANTIFA are, to a half dozen squads of special forces can do in a night. And they went down in Minneapolis in one night!

It is quite interesting to see a "revolution" from those with actual institutional and socioeconomic power, instead of the actual masses. Sort of like how the Bolsheviks (meaning majority) took over the communist party from the Mensheviks (meaning minority) despite the fact that the Bolsheviks were the actual minority in the party. Then again, history is written by the victor.

You are bringing Dr. Zhivago to my mind. When I think of Dr. Zhivago, Laura's theme plays through the recesses of my cranium and visions of Julie Christie appear and I go brain dead and can't think. Everyone has a first love.

How would you propose that we correct our education system?

Voucher system for everyone with kids k-12. It can be spent anywhere the parents want. Education becomes local again and the Federal Dept. of Education is disbanded. School systems will then listen to the parents or become obsolete.

The federal government needs to get out of student loans for higher education. If individuals want a college degree that will help their career earnings, they are responsible for paying for it. This will stop the kids that want to be engineers, until the first calc. 3 test, that then change their major to lesbian dance theory, graduate in 7 years with $100,000 in debt and can't find a job paying more than $25,000.

If the federal government doesn't get out of student loans then the institution of higher learning that charged those fees, is responsible for the bad debt of their students. Perhaps then colleges would be a little more discriminating when it comes to letting students rack up debt for worthless/junk classes.

I would much rather loan a votech student $40,000 to get a used welding truck/plumbers truck/HVAC truck/mechanic's tool box/track hoe, etc. etc. etc. than see another person graduate, that will not earn enough money to ever repay the debt they incurred for their worthless sheep skin.

From a young age we push kids to go to college. There is an entire field of wonderful blue collar jobs paying great money that we are pushing kids away from that could/would be perfect for them. A friends kid graduated from votech with a welding degree five or so years ago. In his first year the kid made over $100k and he wasn't even 20.

I haven't spent much time thinking the education system through, but this is at least a start I would make.

 

[Saul]

I agree that the Republican's have done a poor job of reaching out to minorities. This has always been interesting since they freed the slaves from the Democrats.

Trump is different. He has reached out to minorities his entire business career. It will be interesting to see what percent of the black vote Trump get's in 2020. He got 8% in 2016. He will probably get a significantly higher percent in 2020. If it is over 15% he probably has a landslide in the EC.

I would not underestimate Biden's ability to pull black votes. That is how he ended Sanders after all. I do think that Trump stands to gain at least some black support in the form of protest votes against the Democrats. The issue for democrats is that they assume that the minority vote will always break in their favor because, for the most part, it does. However, I have not heard anything from democrats as to how they are planning to adapt to the changing demographic landscape of America. I am interested to see how the Hispanic and Asian votes go this time around. These are the two fastest growing demographics, and they both tend to skew religiously conservative, especially Koreans. I think evidence of the impending problem for democrats is that Biden was unable to capture any Hispanic support in the primary.

I will take a different viewpoint on ANTIFA. I think they are very well organized, and go up much higher and much deeper than the general public realizes. I also think there are a number of Saul Alinski acolyte's at the top. Look at how well they destroyed the black part of Minneapolis in three days. ANTIFA was prepared for a George Floyd. They just didn't know where or when it would take place. They dealt with the logistic issues in one day and had the city burning. ANTIFA being made a terrorist organization and the military and federal SWAT teams completely changed the ANTIFA paradigm. ANTIFA now has street organizers that have to figure out if they are willing to go to prison for 5-25 years for a night of rioting. They are having second thoughts. If ANTIFA isn't made a terrorist organization then CHAZ in Seattle, Portland, NYC, would have taken on a completely different perspective IMO. CHAZ's would have sprung up in every Democratic controlled city in America. It is amazing what two or three 25 year old NCO's dressed up like ANTIFA with a mic under their mask, telling who the ring leaders of ANTIFA are, to a half dozen squads of special forces can do in a night. And they went down in Minneapolis in one night!

I have yet to see any evidence that ANTIFA is a well-organized group, let alone a terrorist threat. However, it would not surprise me if there was more to them than meets the eye, especially when it comes to funding. Just look at how BLM went from being a civil rights movement to a quasi-marxist group.

Voucher system for everyone with kids k-12. It can be spent anywhere the parents want. Education becomes local again and the Federal Dept. of Education is disbanded. School systems will then listen to the parents or become obsolete.

The federal government needs to get out of student loans for higher education. If individuals want a college degree that will help their career earnings, they are responsible for paying for it. This will stop the kids that want to be engineers, until the first calc. 3 test, that then change their major to lesbian dance theory, graduate in 7 years with $100,000 in debt and can't find a job paying more than $25,000.

If the federal government doesn't get out of student loans then the institution of higher learning that charged those fees, is responsible for the bad debt of their students. Perhaps then colleges would be a little more discriminating when it comes to letting students rack up debt for worthless/junk classes.

I would much rather loan a votech student $40,000 to get a used welding truck/plumbers truck/HVAC truck/mechanic's tool box/track hoe, etc. etc. etc. than see another person graduate, that will not earn enough money to ever repay the debt they incurred for their worthless sheep skin.

From a young age we push kids to go to college. There is an entire field of wonderful blue collar jobs paying great money that we are pushing kids away from that could/would be perfect for them. A friends kid graduated from votech with a welding degree five or so years ago. In his first year the kid made over $100k and he wasn't even 20.

I haven't spent much time thinking the education system through, but this is at least a start I would make.

To be honest, I have not thought much about the education system either. Obviously, the worst thing we can do is throw more money at it, but there still needs to be some way to address the disparities between schools and I am not sure that vouchers really solves that. Are all of the vouchers the same amount of money or are they based on property taxes of the specific area, just like public schools?

I do think that we need some form of standard with regard to education. I might just be getting older, but America definitely seems to be getting dumber. I am just unsure how to best implement educational standards.

I would like to see one year of schooling be exclusively real-world application of past studies. Instead of pure maths, there would be accounting, budgeting, and taxes. Instead of biology, there would be farming and conservation...Etc.

I do agree that the government must immediately get out of student loans. The cost of higher education is absolutely absurd, and most definitely not as the result of free market forces. I also agree that promoting vocational school as an alternative would do a great deal to lower college costs while simultaneously providing a sensible path for those who would not benefit from a traditional college degree.

 

[Brent in Az]

Just remember......those that would love to rip the firearms out of our , cold dead hands, are the same folks complaining about police brutality.

 

[35bore]

Agreed. I believe that a vast majority of protesters are actually upset about racial injustice and are also willing to have a civil discussion. However, these are not the protesters that make good news. It is the rioters and vandals tearing down the statue. While I hope that some of them are at least doing it for ideological reasons, I suspect that most just want to cause indiscriminate harm. That is the only explanation I have for such actions.

If republicans really wanted to flip the narrative on this issue, they should be emphasizing the beliefs of famous abolitionists and civil rights activists. Liberals should have to argue for gun control against the words of Angela Davis, MLK, Malcolm X, and Harriet Tubman. Not to mention, most black people are religiously conservative. I bet that hearing liberal politicians try to talk their way out of these issues would turn off a large segment of the black voter base.

F**k their reasons! These "racist statues" they are tearing down, are just as much black history as they are white history. We are supposed to learn from history. If you erase history, how the hell do you learn from it?
Saul, it makes no sense to me how anyone can try to make sense of this. They've torn down statues of the buffalo soldiers for gods sakes. There is NO way anyone could ask me to condone this crap! It's just a bunch of assholes being assholes and getting away with it. Time, after time, after time. You and I would be in jail if we pulled this crap.

 

[wesheltonj]

@Saul I will be in your neck of the woods (mangroves) Friday. My wife and I would be happy to pound some Trump sense into you. You and my vegan socialist daughter can take the opposite aide.

 

[Wheels]

I would not underestimate Biden's ability to pull black votes. That is how he ended Sanders after all. I do think that Trump stands to gain at least some black support in the form of protest votes against the Democrats. The issue for democrats is that they assume that the minority vote will always break in their favor because, for the most part, it does. However, I have not heard anything from democrats as to how they are planning to adapt to the changing demographic landscape of America. I am interested to see how the Hispanic and Asian votes go this time around. These are the two fastest growing demographics, and they both tend to skew religiously conservative, especially Koreans. I think evidence of the impending problem for democrats is that Biden was unable to capture any Hispanic support in the primary.

Could be. We will certainly know if Biden or Trump can pull the vote in another four months.

Hispanic workers I have had tend to be split on Trump. The Hispanic business owners and small businessmen I know are all pro Trump. The Hispanic's who have been here for multiple generations seem to be for Trump. I don't know if that translates to a Florida or other states but that seems to be the sampling I have talked to in central Oklahoma.

I have yet to see any evidence that ANTIFA is a well-organized group, let alone a terrorist threat. However, it would not surprise me if there was more to them than meets the eye, especially when it comes to funding. Just look at how BLM went from being a civil rights movement to a quasi-marxist group.
.

We will have to disagree on this point. I think ANTIFA is much more organized than BLM. Nothing we see is above ground. No corporate papers or anything like that.

It will be interesting to see what happens when the 150-300 arrests start being processed. If a 25 year old who's street smarts was learned from playing Grand Theft Auto in Mom's basement, is arrested on federal charges after going to a couple of months worth of ANTIFA meetings and encouraging the burning of a business is facing five years in a federal pen, there is a decent chance that ANTIFA gets rolled up fairly quick on RICO/RICO type charges. This is all dependent on a Trump reelection. Otherwise we will never know.

I would like to see one year of schooling be exclusively real-world application of past studies. Instead of pure maths, there would be accounting, budgeting, and taxes. Instead of biology, there would be farming and conservation...Etc.

I agree completely that we do a poor job of teaching basic living skills to kids. If parents had better control of the curriculum instead of some big brother type in the superintendents office, these types of classes might appear/reappear.

 

[TByrd]

Such a handy thing, the IGNORE button... finally got to use it!

+1....first time, and long overdue....thanks for the reminder that we have the option.

 

[Timbo]

I guess they mean keep the candles burning.

LMAO!! I didn't think of that!!

 

[Bushpig4Ever]

https://farmattacks.co.za/farmer-charged-with-murder-for-shooting-and-killing-farm-attacker/

Welcome in Africa!

 

[Saul]

For those who like Ben Shapiro, here is his take on systemic racism. Quite the interesting watch if you have time.

 

[BSO Dave]

There seem to be three types of people in the protests. Legitimate protesters who have a gripe and want things changed. I don't know anybody who would disagree with their right to protest.

Wheels,

The only issue I have with this statement is that you would be conceding that these "protesters" actually have a legitimate gripe which I firmly believe they do not... Peaceful or not, they are protesting the false narratives of systemic racism and systemic police brutality against people of color which the statistics clearly show not to be valid. When you are protesting a falsehood that is purely emotionally driven, you are an agitator, not a legitimate protester exercising your 1st amendment rights.

 

[Saul]

Wheels,

The only issue I have with this statement is that you would be conceding that these "protesters" actually have a legitimate gripe which I firmly believe they do not... Peaceful or not, they are protesting the false narratives of systemic racism and systemic police brutality against people of color which the statistics clearly show not to be valid. When you are protesting a falsehood that is purely emotionally driven, you are an agitator, not a legitimate protester exercising your 1st amendment rights.

As you stated, it is your belief that the protesters do not have a legitimate gripe. Luckily, the 1st Amendment (why do we not call it 1A?) protects the right to protest whatever you want.

If you watched the Ben Shapiro video I posted, he does a pretty good job arguing that there is a difference between historic racism and systemic racism. While black people clearly faced systemic racism in the past and live with the consequences of this racism today (historic racism) they no longer face systems of oppression (systemic racism). In fact, there have been substantial policy reform and legislation aimed at both eliminating systemic racism and countering the effects of historic racism. Therefore, the problems that are being attributed to systemic racism are more likely due to other variables.

 

[BSO Dave]

As you stated, it is your belief that the protesters do not have a legitimate gripe. Luckily, the 1st Amendment (why do we not call it 1A?) protects the right to protest whatever you want.

This is probably the only point upon which you and I will agree. You are correct that one of the the great things about this country is that we the people do have the right to "peacefully & legally" protest anything we want no matter how ignorant and misinformed we may be.

In regard to compliance with the 1st amendment, each year when my motorcycle club organizes a public gathering, we have to pre-apply and pay for a permit for the right to assemble publicly. We also have to pay for any public services associated with the gathering such as police, fire inspectors, and code enforcement... I'm sure all of these "peaceful" protesters had their permits in hand during these last several weeks.

I thought I knew the Constitution pretty well, but I'm still looking for the amendment in the Constitution that says one can selectively decide which of the amendments and rules of law in this country we choose to follow and when.

 

[Saul]

This is probably the only point upon which you and I will agree. You are correct that one of the the great things about this country is that we the people do have the right to "peacefully & legally" protest anything we want no matter how ignorant and misinformed we may be.

In regard to compliance with the 1st amendment, each year when my motorcycle club organizes a public gathering, we have to pre-apply and pay for a permit for the right to assemble publicly. We also have to pay for any public services associated with the gathering such as police, fire inspectors, and code enforcement... I'm sure all of these "peaceful" protesters had their permits in hand during these last several weeks.

I thought I knew the Constitution pretty well, but I'm still looking for the amendment in the Constitution that says one can selectively decide which of the amendments and rules of law in this country we choose to follow and when.

It could be argued that restrictions on public assembly are far too constrictive, though I am not exactly rushing to loosen them, especially when BLM blocks my commute to work.

I try to understand and empathize with the protesters, I really do. I can see why people are angry with politicians and are tired of inaction. There is still a little revolutionary in me that says to hell with the system, burn it down. Then again, I could just be remembering how it felt when the Berlin Wall came down.

As I have opined on many occasions here, we need a return to civility. There is no need for revolution, the government does not need to be destroyed, we are not living under an oppressive regime. What we do need is more commonality, more common decency, and more common sense.