Politics

[HookMeUpII]

Paying the most in total federal taxes because you have the highest percentage of the population. should not allow you to deduct what we cannot.

In other words, the places you listed pay more because you have more citizens.

that should not allow you to deduct and subsidize socialist programs. Your states voters should pay for what they’re elected politicians give them we shouldn’t have to pay for that.

You sure about that? Population density =/= actual population.

Population of NJ = 9.5 million
Population of NY = 8.25 million

Population of TX = 31.2 million
Population of FL = 23.37 million

I left CA out which is an equalizer but if you add back in CT, Mass, and even VA, it doesn't surpass the population of the non-SALT sensitive states.

It has to do with taxable wages, revenue, and income. Nothing to do with population. We are paying more into YOUR POCKET, because we MAKE MORE. We also support infrastructure for millions of people who are transients through the area to get to where you are, vacation/sight-see here, etc.

Simple enough?

 

[mdwest]

You sure about that? Population density =/= actual population.

Population of NJ = 9.5 million
Population of NY = 8.25 million

Population of TX = 31.2 million
Population of FL = 23.37 million

I left CA out which is an equalizer but if you add back in CT, Mass, and even VA, it doesn't surpass the population of the non-SALT sensitive states.

It has to do with taxable wages, revenue, and income. Nothing to do with population. We are paying more into YOUR POCKET, because we MAKE MORE. We also support infrastructure for millions of people who are transients through the area to get to where you are, vacation/sight-see here, etc.

Simple enough?

The population of NYC is 8.25M... the population of NY State is just under 20M... You cant really compare NYC to the entire state of FL as an apples to apples comparison..

Then you look at the land mass size of FL vs NY and where the population centers are (density)... 12% of NY State lives rural.. everyone else is urban and living in one of the cities.. only 9% of FL's population is considered to live in rural areas.. but the 91% living in an urban environment are spread across a much greater number of mid sized cities than the 88% in NY where they largely live in NYC Metro (Albany, Buffalo, etc don't even make the top 50 list of largest metro areas in the US)..

When you add in NJ (9.5M) and CT (3.7M).. states where most of the population live near NYC and much of the surrounding community commute and work in NYC (metro).. you're now talking a population base of close to 20M for NYC alone.. Which really isn't that much smaller than the entire population of the State of Florida (23.3M)..

Throw in CA where only 5.8% of the population is rural, and consider the population density in LA, SF, SD, etc metro areas.. and a total population of right at 40M.. and things get incredibly skewed..

Then factor in major cities like Chicago that have a high cost of living and most of the states population for IL is centered in that one city vs somewhere like TX where there are 2 of the largest metro areas in the country (Houston and DFW).. but 15% of the population is rural and the 85% living "urban" are spread not only between DFW and HOU, but are also in SA, Austin, and a couple of dozen other mid sized cities like Waco, El Paso, McAllen, Killen-Temple, Corpus, etc. etc.. and the physical size of TX where all of that population is distributed..

and its clear that there really is no comparison at all.. CA doesnt look anything at all like TX.. and no other states in the country look like IL or NY... they're simply not populated the same way.. the wealth distribution, population distribution, and the population densities are completely different..

 

[HookMeUpII]

The population of NYC is 8.25M... the population of NY State is just under 20M... You cant really compare NYC to the entire state of FL as an apples to apples comparison..

Then you look at the land mass size of FL vs NY and where the population centers are (density)... 12% of NY State lives rural.. everyone else is urban and living in one of the cities.. only 9% of FL's population is considered to live in rural areas.. but the 91% living in an urban environment are spread across a much greater number of mid sized cities than the 88% in NY where they largely live in NYC Metro (Albany, Buffalo, etc don't even make the top 50 list of largest metro areas in the US)..

When you add in NJ (9.5M) and CT (3.7M).. states where most of the population live near NYC and much of the surrounding community commute and work in NYC (metro).. you're now talking a population base of close to 20M for NYC alone.. Which really isn't that much smaller than the entire population of the State of Florida (23.3M)..

USA population is 340 million. If you pull out NY, NJ, CT, and CA lets just say that brings it down to 250 million.

250 million in the rest of the USA.
vs.
90 million in the SALT-sensitive areas.

27% of the population pays more into the federal government than the rest, essentially.

Still sticking to my guns and telling my GOP reps to kill the bill if it comes back less than $40k SALT. Don't really care what anyone says. If people can't get their head around those who live in high SALT states, which are not only the aforementioned, being able to deduct another $10k...not my problem. Especially with there being an income phase out. Essentially, it would help middle to upper-middle income families in high SALT locales who are doing everything they can to get by.

There is way, way bigger problems with that bill than allowing someone to deduct $10k more. Also, if you read the analysis, it's a small percentage of total population who would benefit, especially with the higher standard deduction.

Right now they are saying if it comes back to house with the old $10,000 limit in place for SALT, it's DOA. That makes me happy.

 

[mdwest]

Essentially, it would help middle to upper-middle income families in high SALT locales who are doing everything they can to get by.

We might be talking past one another...


Im having a hard time understanding the above statement..

middle to high income families that are doing everything they can to get by?

if middle income families cant pay the bills... is that because they are living above their means, or that the cost of living in their chosen cities is too high?

if middle income families cant pay the bills, where does that leave lower income families?

Im assuming you're saying something different with the quoted statement than how Im reading it? Im obviously not tracking...

 

[skydiver386]

Interesting.....

https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/06/24/ukraine-swamps-russian-tanks/

The Pripyat marshes were a major factor for the Germans and Russians in WWll.

 

[HookMeUpII]

We might be talking past one another...


Im having a hard time understanding the above statement..

middle to high income families that are doing everything they can to get by?

if middle income families cant pay the bills... is that because they are living above their means, or that the cost of living in their chosen cities is too high?

if middle income families cant pay the bills, where does that leave lower income families?

Im assuming you're saying something different with the quoted statement than how Im reading it? Im obviously not tracking...

Middle class and upper middle class varies from state to state. What is middle class here, is not middle class in other parts. I bet if you did the math, the proportion of federal tax revenue from the middle class, outside the cities in "purple" or blue states accounts for the largest amount of tax revenue. The bottom line is it just gets harder and harder for folks in these states who are not Dem or left-leaning. I am one of those people. I pay a boatload into the federal government annually. I pay self-employment tax, can't deduct SALT, I want something back and that's my take. I don't want to leave. My family is here, my friends are here, my career is here, and I do like the state aside from the COLI and idiot politics.

Another thing is folks on here like to throw around the word "city" with a little bit of carelessness. Where I live is not the city. Where literally all of my friends and family live (in NJ), is not the "city." We have a one major highway, the highest population of black bears per capita in the USA, and no public transportation in terms of subways. We have a train and a bus route (which many areas have). Couple big box stores, which is nice. City...hardly.

Look at GA in 2020. That is the "city" effect. NY, same thing. Ever been to upstate NY?

Either way, we're not going to agree on this. You and I might have been on the same page in 2018. 2025 might as well be a whole new era.

I can't even fault Trump, he's all for SALT going up to a reasonable figure of $40k-$50k.

Once again, if it comes back to the house with $10k SALT...kill it. Period.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I'm in NJ, but lets back up for a second here. First off, I agree, unlimited SALT couldn't (can't) continue. However, $40k SALT deduction cap is fair.

States like NY, NJ, CT, CA pay more in federally than almost 75% of the other states. Some of it is for BS social programs, some for schools (to which we have some of the best, nationally), and a lot is for infrastructure which a lot of people nationwide, can't even fathom the cost to maintain. In NJ alone, the cost to maintain the roads, is like $1.5 billion in just maintenance.

To be fair, TX and FL recently made that list as well by virtue of population explosion post-COVID, corporate moves, etc.

I was initially pro-SALT elimination until I learned more about it.

With the standard deduction basically ~$30k or so (married filing jointly), that's only leaving basically another $10k on the bone which isn't exactly a lot. Back to what I said: Unlimited is a bit ridiculous, $40-$50k is fair. You're really only allowing people with high SALT tax expenses to deduct $10k. There are people in states like TX, FL, which would qualify as well.

I wrote all my NJ GOP reps and told them if it comes back than a penny less than $40k penned in for SALT...kill it. One of them, actually responded to me personally (I've met him several times, Recreational Fishing Alliance) said he fully intends to.

NYC, that's a different story, I'll cover in another post.

You sure about that? Population density =/= actual population.

Population of NJ = 9.5 million
Population of NY = 8.25 million

Population of TX = 31.2 million
Population of FL = 23.37 million

I left CA out which is an equalizer but if you add back in CT, Mass, and even VA, it doesn't surpass the population of the non-SALT sensitive states.

It has to do with taxable wages, revenue, and income. Nothing to do with population. We are paying more into YOUR POCKET, because we MAKE MORE. We also support infrastructure for millions of people who are transients through the area to get to where you are, vacation/sight-see here, etc.

Simple enough?

Nice try. Equating the city population to the state population numbers .

 

[HookMeUpII]

Nice try. Equating the city population to the state population numbers .

Nice try? I'll restate it:

250 million in the rest of the USA.
vs.
90 million in the SALT-sensitive areas.

90 million people who pay close to half the federal taxes.

 

[HookMeUpII]

“27% of the population pays more into the federal government than the rest, essentially. “

And how much do each of these sanctuary cities and states drag out of the federal coffers. Per dollar paid in

Not sure I know nor do I care? I don't live in one.

Fun facts:

1) NJ is technically NOT a sanctuary state.
2) NJ is known as one of the states that takes/receives the least from the federal government, despite paying the most in.

Which states contribute the most and least to federal revenue? | USAFacts

In 2023, New Yorkers paid about $89 billion more to the federal government than they received.

usafacts.org

I want my break. Period.

Once again, bill can die on the vine for all I care if it doesn't have $40k SALT.

 

[Altitude sickness]

My issue is this Salt deduction does not fix the root cause. It was a scheme to get the last Trump tax cuts through by lowering the amount of people that could take certain deductions.

So now the states that you listed that have extremely high state taxes(sales and property), get those high state taxes subsidized by the rest of us that had some deductions taken away.

Taxpayers who itemize may deduct state and local taxes, such as state income or sales tax plus state and local property taxes, against federal taxable incomeup to that $10,000 limit. Soon to be $30-$40k

“Additionally, the TCJA doubled the standard deduction, reducing the number of itemizers from about a third of taxpayers to about 9 percent.”

 

[deewayne2003]

USA population is 340 million. If you pull out NY, NJ, CT, and CA lets just say that brings it down to 250 million.

250 million in the rest of the USA.
vs.
90 million in the SALT-sensitive areas.

27% of the population pays more into the federal government than the rest, essentially.

Still sticking to my guns and telling my GOP reps to kill the bill if it comes back less than $40k SALT. Don't really care what anyone says. If people can't get their head around those who live in high SALT states, which are not only the aforementioned, being able to deduct another $10k...not my problem. Especially with there being an income phase out. Essentially, it would help middle to upper-middle income families in high SALT locales who are doing everything they can to get by.

There is way, way bigger problems with that bill than allowing someone to deduct $10k more. Also, if you read the analysis, it's a small percentage of total population who would benefit, especially with the higher standard deduction.

Right now they are saying if it comes back to house with the old $10,000 limit in place for SALT, it's DOA. That makes me happy.

If your logic is correct, then why did so many extremely high income people leave NY when SALT was capped?

I believe the reason stated in a Bloomberg report put it quite eloquently - "Without being able to deduct SALT from federal, taxes simply made NY not economically viable for high income individuals."

Note: this video is 6 years old

and this one 4 years old

 

[fourfive8]

Not complicated. Vote for state/local politicians who like high taxes and promise lots of goodies. Then get everyone else to subsidize the high taxes.
Really simple!

 

[Russ16]

It’s not just NJ and NY. I live in northern Virginia in whatbi consider a modest home 4 bedroom 3 bath 1950s construction. I hit the salt cap on my property taxes before I ever pay a dime in income tax. Housing costs here are just so high that it impacts a lot of middle and even lower income families.

I’ve always thought there should be a regional adjustment for housing prices.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

 

[mdwest]

Nice try? I'll restate it:

250 million in the rest of the USA.
vs.
90 million in the SALT-sensitive areas.

90 million people who pay close to half the federal taxes.

90 million doesnt include the greater Chicagoland area or many other major metro high cost of living areas..

it also doesn't factor in the consequences of poor city, county, and state policies that result in those outrageously high cost of living situations, which drive the higher wages, which drive the higher taxes...

 

[mdwest]

It’s not just NJ and NY. I live in northern Virginia in whatbi consider a modest home 4 bedroom 3 bath 1950s construction. I hit the salt cap on my property taxes before I ever pay a dime in income tax. Housing costs here are just so high that it impacts a lot of middle and even lower income families.

I’ve always thought there should be a regional adjustment for housing prices.

thats absolutely true... I lived in NoVA for a while myself..

but those outrageous housing costs are the result of outrageous state and local policies, programs, and taxes.. get rid of those policies, programs, and taxes involved with the design, build, maintenance, and ownership of private property.. and get rid of the insane policies related to labor and wages, and suddenly those housing values decrease by HUGE numbers..

I was there during the GWOT housing boom when DC's population exploded (thanks to an irresponsible Federal Govt) and watched housing values more than double in less than a 3 year period of time..

NoVA is sitting on a false real estate bubble that will one day break (its already suffered several fissures and cracks).. when it does there is going to be a real problem in the DC metro area..

 

[Hunt anything]

Food for thought; Florida and New York City have populations of +- 20 million. Florida has about half of the budget of New York City. I realize it’s not an easy or may not even be right to compare budgets of a state and city.

 

[mdwest]

Middle class and upper middle class varies from state to state. What is middle class here, is not middle class in other parts. I bet if you did the math, the proportion of federal tax revenue from the middle class, outside the cities in "purple" or blue states accounts for the largest amount of tax revenue. The bottom line is it just gets harder and harder for folks in these states who are not Dem or left-leaning. I am one of those people. I pay a boatload into the federal government annually. I pay self-employment tax, can't deduct SALT, I want something back and that's my take. I don't want to leave. My family is here, my friends are here, my career is here, and I do like the state aside from the COLI and idiot politics.

Another thing is folks on here like to throw around the word "city" with a little bit of carelessness. Where I live is not the city. Where literally all of my friends and family live (in NJ), is not the "city." We have a one major highway, the highest population of black bears per capita in the USA, and no public transportation in terms of subways. We have a train and a bus route (which many areas have). Couple big box stores, which is nice. City...hardly.

Look at GA in 2020. That is the "city" effect. NY, same thing. Ever been to upstate NY?

Either way, we're not going to agree on this. You and I might have been on the same page in 2018. 2025 might as well be a whole new era.

I can't even fault Trump, he's all for SALT going up to a reasonable figure of $40k-$50k.

Once again, if it comes back to the house with $10k SALT...kill it. Period.

Lots of red herring arguments in that post..

What is middle class in any one place isn't middle class in another.. that's a truth all over the world.. the question to be asking is "why?"...

Why does a 900 sq foot apartment in Manhattan cost more than a 2000 sq foot condo in Northern Virginia? and why does that 2000 sq foot condo in NoVA cost the same as a 3000 sq foot single family residence in many parts of Dallas?

What you are talking about is an acceptable standard of living.. if you live in a nice 900sq foot apartment on Manhattan, you are very likely considered to be "middle class".. which is something completely different in North Dallas, where the same level of "middle class" is typically seen as someone that owns a less than 5 year old vehicle for every driving aged person in the house and a 3000+ sq foot home with a yard..

So whats driving those high costs? and the high wages in places like NYC? and whats driving that high tax base you keep referring to?

well lets see.. a Starbucks Barista in Manhattan makes roughly 22% more than the average Starbucks Barista in the rest of the US...

a construction worker in Manhattan makes on average $31 per hour.. which is substantially more than the median across the US at $24 an hour..

why do even labor class people in NYC make more than your typical entry level to the "middle class" who are living SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER in other parts of the country?

You only need to look as far as municipal, county, and state level governments to find your answers...

They make more (which results in higher taxes paid at all levels).. because costs are higher.. and costs are higher because of terrible policy, regulatory environments, and tax burdons put upon citizens by governments below the federal level..

So Texans should allow greater breaks to go to New Yorkers because the NY Govt cant properly manage NY? Which only further encourages NY Govt to go further down the shitty rabbit hole they have already been pursuing which has gotten them where they are in the first place?

NYC is about to elect a guy that openly declares he is a socialist as its Mayor.. what impact do you think that's going to have on NYC's local economy? and Why is it Texas problem to solve for NYC (or anyone else's)..

Whether you live rural or urban is inconsequential.. your state is only 10% rural.. and your state and your city governments have created the high cost of living situation that you appear to want the rest of the country to solve for you..

I get that NJ is your home.. that your friends and your family are there.. and you don't want to leave.. I completely understand that..

but that is YOUR decision.. and the consequences, whether good or bad for that decision should be yours.. not everyone else's to live with..

 

[HookMeUpII]

“Additionally, the TCJA doubled the standard deduction, reducing the number of itemizers from about a third of taxpayers to about 9 percent.”

See this is where I am reasonable.

I am in wealth management which crosses a bit into the accounting world. I have a very good understanding.

The people that really lost out: The ultra wealthy in SALT states. You had people that had 2 homes with $50-$100k in SALT taxes deducting the full amount. I agree, this couldn't continue. Those are the people who left. I know of a few.

$40k is a reasonable number for SALT. Once again, when people do the math, it's only an additional $10k you're allowed to deduct for a married couple filing jointly.

It's the principal of the matter.

 

[HookMeUpII]

They make more (which results in higher taxes paid at all levels).. because costs are higher.. and costs are higher because of terrible policy, regulatory environments, and tax burdons put upon citizens by governments below the federal level..

I'm not going to debate this any more because it's fruitless. You will have one view, I have another. The bottom line is: NJ (at least) pays far, far more into the federal government than it receives. All the while, we get double taxed.

My view? No SALT cap limit raise? I either a) Want more from the federal government or b) want my tax dollars to go less into the federal government. Give me the first option, so be it. More money for schools, healthcare facilities, etc. I am all for it.

You look at it as: We (not me) elect bad leaders. Maybe so. You shouldn't have to "subsidize us". I don't vote for these people, believe me. And NJ has a very good shot of going red for governor.

I look at it as: 60-70% of the country lives on our dime, as well as the other states, and either give us a break, or it's time to stop the gravy train.

Once again, I am not even pushing for unlimited SALT. $40k is very fair, considering it leaves only about $10k left above the standard deduction. And that goes for everyone. Folks like @Russ16 who live in VA. Other folks in MD.

Word around the campfire is the bill might be DOA in the senate, let alone the house for reasons of SALT and Medicaid cuts. Good let it die.

FWIW, I agree with some of the ACA cuts. Why is someone I know of getting a 75% ACA subsidy from the government on their healthcare when the wife still pulls in 6 figures from the hedge fund she's semi-retired from?