Politics

The point isn’t determining how to slice up the pie, it’s how to make the pie bigger. Technological advances improve human productivity freeing humans up to perform higher value tasks. Your argument would have kept us at 40 acres and a mule.
Automation has it's place for sure. But not in all places. Take supermarket checkouts... not only are cashiers put out of work but the supermarkets now transfer legal liability onto the shopper. When you had a cashier you put your goods on the conveyor and paid the person. If they didn't scan something it was the supermarket that was to blame. Or if they scanned a red onion as a cheaper white onion the same applied.

Now with self-service checkouts any of the above scenarios YOU can be arrested for theft/shoplifting. Plus the cashier is out of a job.

So no, automation is not always the be all and end all of progress.
 
I see self check outs brought up frequently in discussions. And supposed loss of jobs.
Obviously I can't speak of the entire country but I've worked in grocery stores most of my life. 37 years.
If it wasn't for the self check outs you'd have even emptier shelves. Nobody lost thier job. They just got a different job. We're usually 20 employees short at all times. Every store in at least western Colorado is the same.
I've worked 6+ days a week for 25 years due to lack of employees. Nobody wants to work.
We do start even baggers at $20 an hour btw.
I'm just the produce dpt manager and make a petty good living. My department is usually 40 to 100 hours per week understaffed depending on the season.
Everyone demands we get paid better wages and hire more non existent employees then turn around and complain about prices going up.
Anyway, just my thoughts on that. If anyone wants a job here you'll get hired immediately.
 
Let’s also not forget “the great resignation” a couple of years ago where millions of labor class employees just said I won’t work for less than X and quit… perfectly willing to live off govt subsistence..

Which in turn spurned many businesses to invest huge amounts of money into automation because they couldn’t find people willing to work for reasonable wages..

Walmart in particular put in tens of thousands of additional self check out kiosks during that time period..

Fast forward a few years… everyone wants to bitch about a computer checking you out and Walmart not hiring enough entry level laborers…

Well.. they invested millions of dollars when no one wanted to work.. those costs are sunk… they are now recouping those costs and have no intention of incurring more costs putting people into jobs where they are no longer needed..
 
I see self check outs brought up frequently in discussions. And supposed loss of jobs.
Obviously I can't speak of the entire country but I've worked in grocery stores most of my life. 37 years.
If it wasn't for the self check outs you'd have even emptier shelves. Nobody lost thier job. They just got a different job. We're usually 20 employees short at all times. Every store in at least western Colorado is the same.
I've worked 6+ days a week for 25 years due to lack of employees. Nobody wants to work.
We do start even baggers at $20 an hour btw.
I'm just the produce dpt manager and make a petty good living. My department is usually 40 to 100 hours per week understaffed depending on the season.
Everyone demands we get paid better wages and hire more non existent employees then turn around and complain about prices going up.
Anyway, just my thoughts on that. If anyone wants a job here you'll get hired immediately.

Let’s also not forget “the great resignation” a couple of years ago where millions of labor class employees just said I won’t work for less than X and quit… perfectly willing to live off govt subsistence..

Which in turn spurned many businesses to invest huge amounts of money into automation because they couldn’t find people willing to work for reasonable wages..

Walmart in particular put in tens of thousands of additional self check out kiosks during that time period..

Fast forward a few years… everyone wants to bitch about a computer checking you out and Walmart not hiring enough entry level laborers…

Well.. they invested millions of dollars when no one wanted to work.. those costs are sunk… they are now recouping those costs and have no intention of incurring more costs putting people into jobs where they are no longer needed..
Exactly! Both posts are spot on. I travel often between Texas and Minnesota and I have been driving those areas and West to the Dakota's and Colorado, Certainly Western Kansas. East to Indiana and even Georgia and Florida. Since 2013 there has always been a lot of help wanted signs. Probably the least right now that I've seen in 11 years.

And as for self checkouts, I was born impatient. I often appreciate the option. Now Sams Club has an app that lets you scan your items as you put them into the cart. That is handy! You pay with a credit card and it brings up a bar code that you show at the door instead of your receipt. You get a receipt emailed to you.

I was in there that crazy day the dock workers strike started and pushed my cart around all the lines and right to the door. In fact I had a 6 foot tall Nutcracker that I knew would make Gina's day and asked for help loading it and a young man trotted right over to help!

It is definitely two different things to have people unemployed and people willing to work!
 
Last edited:
LOL, it was a tough night in Bama for sure, but man, you’ve got to hand it to Vanderbilt. They played us tougher than Georgia. Not only that, they out-coached us badly.
Tough one for the whole state, Alabama, Auburn, South Alabama, UAB and Troy all lost. BUT Vanderbilt? I guess we’ll (Auburn) get ours in a few weeks.
 
Last edited:
Another HUGE turnout in Butler, PA.
With the 30 day countdown to the election, all I can say Mr. President, is watch your 6.
The deep state is not finished with you
We watched the whole thing on TV...Trump's opening line. "As I was saying..."

Elon Musk was fantastic! Really hit home on the 1st and 2nd Amendments. And commented on how you will not have democracy without free speech and that the 2nd is there to ensure the 1st.

And yesterday Hillary Clinton was talking about how free speech must be controlled. She actually said "If we do not monitor and moderate content on social media, we will lose control".... Yeah Bitch! That is the idea! To keep you from having control over us!

And maybe you military guys can relate when Musk said you can tell the character of a person by their behavior under fire. On one hand you have a President who can't find the stairs. And on the hand you have a President who is fist pumping after being shot!
20241006_081110.jpg
 
Last edited:
So far it’s been a piss poor example of what our government is incapable of getting down for American citizens as the people of the affected area from the hurricane struggle to survive………. But thank goodness we are footing the bill for Ukraine first responders, we wouldn’t want them to suffer from lack of funding…….
 
Exactly! Both posts are spot on. I travel often between Texas and Minnesota and I have been driving those areas and West to the Dakota's and Colorado, Certainly Western Kansas. East to Indiana and even Georgia and Florida. Since 2013 there has always been a lot of help wanted signs. Probably the least right now that I've seen in 11 years.

And as for self checkouts, I was born impatient. I often appreciate the option. Now Sams Club has an app that lets you scan your items as you put them into the cart. That is handy! You pay with a credit card and it brings up a bar code that you show at the door instead of your receipt. You get a receipt emailed to you.

I was in there that crazy day the dock workers strike started and pushed my cart around all the lines and right to the door. In fact I had a 6 foot tall Nutcracker that I knew would make Gina's day and asked for help loading it and a young man trotted right over to help!

It is definitely two different things to have people unemployed and people willing to work!
I can see both sides of the automation discussion to be honest.

On the one hand, automation is an absolutely crucial tool to maintaining our standards of living. It keeps costs down for consumers, it maintains profitability for businesses which in turn keeps tax revenues up for the government to in theory use to maintain infrastructure (and in reality squander). In that way it is essential to the viability of the nation. Plus of course, most of the products we buy are only available at all because of automation, and certainly they're only affordable to the average Joe because of it. Food, cars, technology, clothes, a multitude of others. I can't fault any business for investing in it, even at the loss of jobs. It's a necessary evil in that respect.

However, there are disadvantages. The simple fact is that, even if automation DOES generate new jobs, and it does of course, they're not jobs that the person being replaced on a production line, or in a grocery store, or in a warehouse are realistically able to 'just pick up'. The skill sets aren't always there, they're much more technically complicated jobs, they require a great deal of extensive training, and often they're a lot easier to offshore.

As an example, I did a case study during my MBA on a project run by a FMCG company to optimize one of their production facilities, integrating IoT, centralized data collection, and Machine Learning based optimisation tools. Once it was complete, they'd increased capacity from that site by 30% with no nominal increase in head count and a substantial reduction in COGs. The dirty secret (not reported in the 'official' case study I might add) was that the business case was contingent on being able to close two of their smaller, less efficient facilities as a result. The project was successful, and 500 people lost their jobs. Of course, the new, more automated facility with its IoT integrated equipment DID create new jobs. In the end, they hired 4 optimization engineers, 8 coders, a statistician, and a machine learning specialist (at the corporate location), plus 4 additional maintenance specialists and 4 additional technical personnel (on site). Their suppliers probably had to hire a couple of technical support personnel as well.

But that's no comfort to the 500 people out of work, especially as they'd need to move across the country at the minimum, and to the Netherlands for most, to take those positions. Plus of course, a guy with 10 years on the job experience running a packaging line, or a spray dryer, isn't realistically going to take a machine learning position.

But, the efficiency went up, and the cost of goods went down enough that it allowed them to keep price hikes to a minimum during COVID, soaking up a lot of raw materials inflation through increased production efficiency. It also went some way to keeping the business commercially viable during that period, which maintained many more jobs in country and gives consumers more choices on shelf.

This is a pretty typical example of automation in manufacturing in 2024. Some pros, some cons, probably necessary for a business to be competitive, but coming with a net head count reduction.

Roll this up to the national level, and especially when you consider the influence of Big Tech in this space, and I think it becomes problematic. Take Amazon. It's a great benefit to consumers. Very cheap goods, delivered right to you door very quickly. But, also consider that every $1 in revenue that goes to amazon is coming straight out of the pockets of traditional retail. Amazon delivers that service with substantially less people. The true COST of Amazon's business model is a loss of retail jobs, warehouse jobs, delivery and courier jobs. Millions of them across the nation. Plus Amazon taking that order doesn't increase the size of that order (much). You buy the same bog roll, or the same jacket, or the same TV as you did before, just for less money, so upstream benefits to manufacturers are fairly minimal.

It's the same story with Tesla's self driving tech. If they really can manage self driving semi-trucks, the benefits are evident, but the COST, is again, millions of well paid jobs disappearing. If AI truly takes off, we'll see the same thing with paralegals, and accountants, and coders, and many other white collar jobs. Social media has already done this for many traditional news outlets, and it will continue to eliminate those jobs, and marketing jobs, and consumer insights jobs, and sales jobs, and broadcasting jobs as it grows. I can't see any of those jobs magically creating more jobs than they take. After all, cheaper trucks doesn't really mean we will move more goods, nor does AI tools mean we'll door do more tax returns, or need more legal services, or read more news. Affordable mechanisms are already in place to serve these needs, these are just more profitable.

This takes me on to the overall point of this post. This wave of automation isn't (IMO) like the last industrial revolution, or even the slow creeping industrial automation of the past few decades. Those worked to create jobs because standards of living were low enough, and export markets were numerous enough that making more things more efficiently allowed more of them to be sold. Henry Ford and the car is a good example of that, as is industrial glass blowing back in my hometown in the UK in the 1800's, or even the proliferation of affordable home computing that the advances of the 80's and 90's enabled. Automation provided entirely new markets, opening up those goods to a slew of new consumers, which in turn lead to increased prosperity.

But today, I don't think that'll happen in nearly the same way. Much of this wave is about either selling the same amount of stuff to the same consumers cheaper (eg Amazon, automated self check out, automated warehouses, self driving trucks), or providing the same intangible goods more cheaply (advertising on FB vs cable, AI driven accounting services, or legal services, or market research). It's all bottom line focused, not growth focused, at least within western nations, and let's be real, if the market your AI guided micro chip design tool opens up is affordable smartphones for Indians, Nigerians, or the Chinese, you aren't adding much headcount in America as a result, nor are you drastically increasing living standards for Americans.

As such, I don't see a world where the current wave of automation CREATES more jobs than it destroys, at least in the West. Therefore it's my opinion that the conversation around a universal basic income is going to become a genuine policy point in the US within my lifetime as a result.

It'll be a fantastic thing for developing nations though.
 
I believe automation is necessary to an extend. Look at how miserable customer service has become with the telephone automation.
1728228829145.gif
 
When we go to the grocery store my wife tries to get me to use the self checkout. My statement is "why? I don't work here."

When at Costco and the rep tries to steer me to the self checkout option I ask them if I get a discount.

Their facial expressions reassure me that these subtle lessons in the economics of transferring indirect cost to the customer are always appreciated. :cool:
 
I can see both sides of the automation discussion to
The consumer is relentless in seeking ever better quality at ever lower prices. This will drive automation to its fullest extent possible in production and distribution. Businesses have no choice
 
Speaking of automation, coming not so soon to a city near you, AI generated "Total Recall" Africa trophy hunt, complete with personalized lifelike taxidermy, no long plane ride, bad airline food or jet lag.
 
The consumer is relentless in seeking ever better quality at ever lower prices. This will drive automation to its fullest extent possible in production and distribution. Businesses have no choice
I agree that businesses have no choice, but I think this argument ignores one point.

A person has two 'jobs' in an economy. Creating 'stuff', and consuming 'stuff'. Basic supply and demand. It doesn't matter how cheap or high quality a good or service is if there isn't a customer base with the interest and resources to take advantage of it.

Automation essentially focuses on removing people from the 'creating stuff' process. Remove people, add machines.

But, machines don't fulfill the other essential part of the equation. Machines don't 'consume stuff'.

It also seems to ignore the other key point, that if people can't 'create stuff', they may want to consume 'stuff', but no longer have the resources (wages) required to do so. At that point, they can demand whatever quality at whatever price they like, but they can't afford those goods, so they're no longer part of the economic system.

In the context of a single business, a single sector even, this is fine. Cheaper goods for everyone, not so much job loss that the overall customer base is hurt to any great degree and hey, maybe making it cheaper opens up a new (poorer) consumer base, like happened with the car, or air travel, or personal computers, or clothes, or fancy foods. Knock a dollar off COGS in exchange for losing 10,000 potential consumers (the employees you laid off to achieve the saving) and you're way, way in the black as a large company. Hence why it is in the interest of the consumer and the shareholders for a single business, planning independently, to take advantage of automation to as great a degree as possible.

But if it's across every company, or a lot of companies in a lot of industries to the point that the customer base IS significantly reduced, you have a problem. Knocking a dollar off COGS in exchange for losing 10 MILLION consumers who no longer have an income to buy your stuff, and your benefits are marginal. If it's 100 MILLION consumers in that position, you go bankrupt.

If (as I believe), we are in a period of job destruction through automation (at least in the West), not an era of job creation through automation, then the 'consuming stuff' element of the economy becomes increasingly important, and increasingly problematic. Effectively, the value of an individual in economic terms is increasingly weighted to their potential as a consumer, not a worker.

Something will need to be done about it. This might be simply producing 'stuff' efficiently to sell overseas at a price that opens up that market in exchange for a reduced living standards domestically. It might be producing 'stuff' cheaply enough that government support alone enables its purchase. We could simply let wages plummet as the availability of jobs drops and hope that goods drop in price quickly enough to approximate the same living standards in the US (whilst the 3rd world enjoys the actual benefits in increased living standards). Or we could directly recognize (financially) the essential value of 'the consumer' to economic success through the introduction of a universal basic income. All are options, and the one selected will depend on policy. But something will need to be done.

I don't have any good answers here, and those that I can think of fly in the face of a lot of my own opinions on free market economics. I think this is a difficult conundrum. But to simply ignore that fundamental issue is not a solution.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
57,665
Messages
1,236,948
Members
101,590
Latest member
Jordan3261
 

 

 

Latest posts

 
Top