Politics

[Wheels]

 

[Louis Toadvine]

Unlike you, I'm not mudslinging at anyone here. Louis Toadvine has a way of appearing at peculiar times. He/She/It, is a troll.

Sorry for the delay, Brent. I haven't been posting much these days because you convinced me that one can't properly engage in discourse if one's handle/avatar is that of a fictional character.

I thought I had arguments I could support with facts, but then I realized I was just part of the swampy hivemind, so I decided to give up. You 4D chess'd me into submission.

 

[Ray B]

Regardless to what heights Putin's ego may rise, explain to me how he achieves "complete victory."

I suspect it will be in the usual fascist way- The troops (what's left of them) are told that Ukraine has surrendered, so the troops pack-up and go home. The media prints nothing other than the govt line about how victorious the entire operation was and that Ukraine is now a vassal state of Russia. Anyone that questions will be sent to Siberia.

 

[USN]

Ok, just a retired USN enlisted guy and following along and have tried to stay out of this sh*+ show. Sir, RedLeg, please continue with your insight to this quagmire. I would have been honored to serve under and with you, Sir! Salute, the rest of you need to pipe down and read his comments and possibly learn something. BZ Sir!

 

[WAB]

Sure thing, Princess. I'll get right on that!

Are we mud slinging now? Asking for those who want to know…

 

[mdwest]

What I think some are failing to understand is what constitutes a Russian victory, what constitutes a Ukrainian victory, and what constitutes a US VICTORY are three very different things.. and depending on who you ask.. how victory is actually defined for each of those parties could be extremely varied..

From my vantage point it really doesnt matter if Ukraine is ultimately defeated or Russia at some point tucks its tail and runs home.. the US can (and largely already has) obtained a significant win...

If Ukraine ends up annexed by Russia, but at the cost of the Russian economy and military being destroyed for the next 20+ years.. thats a win for the US... It might not be exactly the end result we want.. but it is indeed a win..

If the Russians end up getting their asses completely handed to them and the Ukrainians completely run them out of the country.. at significant cost to the Russian economy and military.. that is also a huge win for the US..

We can belabor the humanitarian side of the conflict all day long.. whether or not we are duty bound to stop dictators in their conquests.. or whether it was "right" for the Russians to invade or "right" for the Ukrainians to defend, etc.. etc..

but put all of that aside and just look at why we largely think (both Republicans and Democrats) Russia is a threat to the US (routine state sponsored cyber attacks on our industries, support of other nations known to be our enemies such as NORK, Syria, Iran, etc.. competitor for global markets... 70+ year history of not exactly getting along or trusting one another after WWII, etc..etc..).. Its obvious enough that Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could both see why its in the US interest to see a weakened Russian state..

Ukr doesnt have to "win" (by whatever standard the Uk's determine "victory") for the US to achieve its victory here.. nor do the Russians have to lose..

The only question is how big of a win will the US obtain when its all said and done?

 

[mdwest]

Are we mud slinging now? Asking for those who want to know…

I dont think thats mudslinging.. I think thats just childish name calling that occurs when you dont actually have a valid point to make during the debate.. (similar to what Trump does on occasion..)

 

[geoff rath]

Yeah, that's a really asinine policy/law. The bureaucrats that write those laws never want to recognize the reality that the POS trying to steal your car/jewelry/?? might intend to do you harm in the process.
Unfortunately, Australia lacks a 2nd Amendment, and the only recourse is to try and change your lawmakers.

I'm promoting the idea of withdrawing Police protection for politicians, lawyers, and some bureaucraps, just to see how they'd handle the situation; again, it'll never happen.

 

[Wheels]

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Sure thing, Princess. I'll get right on that!

I think we should all be friends or at least friendly. Let's remember to attack the idea or statement, not the person.

Margaret Thatcher famously stated,
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."

 

[geoff rath]

View attachment 567987

Show a placard like that here (Australia) and get arrested by the Polis

 

[VertigoBE]

, if either house reverts or remains democrat, then nothing meaningful will get done legislatively.

That is perhaps the best outcome for all… 4 years of nothing much happening…

 

[Brent in Az]

I would love to hear your considered analysis how Putin will achieve "complete victory." I obviously believe that is a uniquely uninformed assertion, but convince me. Show me how Putin or his military has the capability to "take control of Ukraine." And please, don't call me names or toss out a bunch of MAGA slogans. That will simply convince me I was correct with respect to your assertions. Even if Trump were totally complicit with helping Putin achieve his strategic goals, how does Putin actually do it?

In our arrogance, we forget it was Ukraine and its people that aspired to be part of Western Europe rather than be a cog in the Russian machine. It was Ukraine, using their own weapons and spending their own lives who brought the Russian Army to a bloody halt outside Kyiv and Karkiv. It was Zelensky, who on February 26, 2022, when offered escape from the country responded "I need ammunition, not a ride." It was his foreign minister who ended his diplomatic discussions in the US on the 24th to return to Ukraine to help Zelensky build a supportive Western coalition. It will be the Ukrainian people, not Donald J. Trump nor Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin who will have the final say in the fate of their country.

As @mdwest notes above, any meaningful decision by Trump to limit military support to Ukraine is at best 18 months away. He would then have to convince a lot of democrats to agree with him to overcome the majority of his own party who actually understand "America First" should mean jealously protecting our national interests wherever they are threatened - a Reaganesque concept the blindly loyal Trump crowd should mull over a bit before hopping on their candidate's revenge tour.

But I digress. Regardless to what heights Putin's ego may rise, explain to me how he achieves "complete victory."

Im not here to call anyone anything, unless provoked.
My statement is not factual, nor did I make any claim that Putin would achieve a complete victory.
The articles, and videos, I saw from analyst's all pretty much agreed that Putin would not give up this war because of his ego, and determination to nothing less then a complete victory, and annexation of the Ukraine would be acceptable....barring his defeat.
Again, these analysts (not the mainstream media), speculated that if pushed into a corner, Putin may resort to tactical nukes? Again,....dont shoot the messenger, its just what I read, and saw on video. I neither agree, or disagree, with that.
I am not a military strategist, and would never claim to be one.
It is just my OPINION that Zelenskys days could be numbered. Unless something happens to turn the tables, I don't see the Ukraine holding out in a long drawn out conflict. That's just my opinion, and at the end of the day, it really doesn't mean much.

 

[Red Leg]

For those following the war in Ukraine, you are aware that the Ukraine has succeeded in driving the Russian surface fleet from the Black Sea - a rather extraordinary achievement for a nation without a real navy. Because the Russians have withdrawn their fleet (the portion afloat), Ukraine has begun to carry out attacks against ships in harbor or drydock. Recently I posted the photos of the destruction of a Kilo class submarine in drydock.

Yesterday, they successfully struck the brand spanking new missile corvette Askol as it sat at dock near Kerch. It was supposed to become operational at the end of the month and be available to launch cruise missiles into Ukraine.

Two Ukrainian SU-24 aircraft fired four SCALP or Storm Shadow cruise missiles (same missile - French or British production respectively) at the ship. One was either shot down or failed, one struck the dock and two struck the ship. If salvageable, it will be years before it is operational again. The first clip shows the strike (nice thing about an occupied region, is that the Ukrainian MOD quickly gets close range BDA from local patriots). The second is a picture of the hull at close range. The warhead on this missile is substantial and the interior of the vessel would have been gutted.

Looking at the catastrophic losses Russia has sustained over the last month, I continue to wonder how accurate an appraisal Putin has of the battlefield.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/17p8w7u

https://twitter.com/x/status/1721583133244490087

 

[Brent in Az]

I think we should all be friends or at least friendly. Let's remember to attack the idea or statement, not the person.

Margaret Thatcher famously stated,
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."

MDWest started it, not me. Look back and see for yourself.
It's not the first time.

 

[geoff rath]

I just wish Brent in Az and mdwest would put their ego back in the box, and work for what's best for AMERICA, not whichever candidate for POTUS 2024 they favor, or which one they despise the most. Look deeper, as Red Leg does; to my addled mind, you're both detracting from the real issues. Politicians are, by their nature, natural-born bottomfeeders.

 

[mdwest]

MDWest started it, not me. Look back and see for yourself.
It's not the first time.

thats just about as laughable as your other posts Brent...

if you want to debate.. then debate.. there are plenty of people (myself included) more than willing to engage you... I am truly curious how you come to many of the conclusions you do and why you seem to think the world is a very different place that is run and managed incredibly different than the overwhelming majority of people (whether on the left or the right) do..

if you want to whine, call names, and then try to claim innocence after ignoring facts and refusing to even attempt to understand anyone elses position (often based on actual facts)... perhaps another audience would be better? this one doesnt seem to buy into it..

 

[mdwest]

Politicians are, by their nature, natural-born bottomfeeders.

on this we agree...

Ive said it before (in this thread) I believe most that would enter into politics.. no matter their party.. intentionally devoid themselves of ethics and morals before taking the field..

 

[Red Leg]

Im not here to call anyone anything, unless provoked.
My statement is not factual, nor did I make any claim that Putin would achieve a complete victory.
The articles, and videos, I saw from analyst's all pretty much agreed that Putin would not give up this war because of his ego, and determination to nothing less then a complete victory, and annexation of the Ukraine would be acceptable....barring his defeat.
Again, these analysts (not the mainstream media), speculated that if pushed into a corner, Putin may resort to tactical nukes? Again,....dont shoot the messenger, its just what I read, and saw on video. I neither agree, or disagree, with that.
I am not a military strategist, and would never claim to be one.
It is just my OPINION that Zelenskys days could be numbered. Unless something happens to turn the tables, I don't see the Ukraine holding out in a long drawn out conflict. That's just my opinion, and at the end of the day, it really doesn't mean much.

If I may make a serious and truly well meant suggestion. Expand your news sources. The MAGA supportive "news" sites carry the same message. They pay homage to people like Tucker Carlson, Douglas Macgregor, and of course what they believe Donald Trump wants. That is an important narrative to understand, but it is one of several circulating in the current politicized environment. An opinion, mine or yours, is only as valuable as the inputs that shape it.

I personally do not like to be played by any group or individual. I've mentioned it here before, but I subscribe to the on-line sources including the WSJ, Washington Post, Sunday NY Times, and read daily from a host of sites ranging from Reddit, to Revolver, to Red State, to the Citizen Free Press, to Slate, and the BBC. At least a dozen are in my bookmarks. Not a single one, right left or center, has the "truth" about anything. But all of them are necessary sources in order to have an informed opinion. Otherwise, we are nothing but cheerleaders for someone else's perception of truth, or more worrisome, the "truth" they want us to believe. That has a name and it is called propaganda.

I obviously have a background that helps me evaluate certain assertions with respect to the Middle East, military, and defense industry issues. Everyone else on this forum to include you has a set of experiences that inform these or other areas of knowledge. I have benefitted from many of them. I suspect you could as well.

 

[Ray B]

(similar to what Trump does on occasion..)

Some people just don't know when the sale is complete and result in blowing the sale.