It is based on your comments that all NCOs can fill in and head battalions and divisions. We are talking about Waltz. Not you personally.
World's most popular community & resource for hunting in Africa since 2007
Politics
- Thread starter Longwalker
- Start date
Supposedly Waltz put in his retirement papers 7 months before deployment. I wonder a freedom of information request could be made to see when the unit was made aware of the deployment.
Corey0372
AH fanatic
I stand corrected. I had no idea that a National Guard senior NCO had the breath of knowledge equivalent to a member of JCS. I wonder why they reduced Waltz's rank upon retirement due to him not taking an NCO course, after all he could have filled in at any position in the most senior levels of US Army.
Heck, instead of having a one-star general officer as The Commandant of National War College, they should maybe have a National Guard NCO lead it.
I thought @Redleg painted a pretty clear picture of the role of Senior Enlisted personnel in his earlier post, so I'll try and and build on that.
In this scenario we're in 1st BN of whatever Regiment.......
Let's say hypothetically you were one of those Staff Officers (maybe a 1stLt or junior Captain) in the meeting he described, and you made a sarcastic or denigrating comment about the role NCOs (especially senior NCOs) have in the military at large, or within HIS Command in particular, and you made them in front of the CSM.
Likely what would happen is you would then see him give an order to the CSM, like he told you he would. That order would probably be for him to leave the room. After he left the room, a "conversation" would likely take place (maybe in front of the other officers, maybe not) stressing the importance of people like the CSM, and how crucial it is to conduct oneself in a professional and military manner in front of not only ALL troops, but especially the CSM.
The CSM would almost certainly know about this conversation, maybe not every detail, but he'd know the gist.... but it's highly unlikely he would ever bring it up to you, because after all..... you are an officer, and he understands there is a chain of command and how it works. He conducts himself in a professional and military manner.
About a month later, when the OPORD for the notional assault you were assigned to write by the BN Commander has been kicked back for the 7th or 8th time, and you haven't had a free weekend all month, and you've gotten all the help you could from your fellow Platoon Commanders, and you've gotten help from your Platoon Sergeants, and the Ops O isn't helping you anymore because he has a training schedule to maintain..... you finally do it..... you break down and go ask the CSM for help. He takes a look at the OPORD and says "looks good to me, we'll just tweak this one thing here because the BN Commander likes to see this covered, he's made that very clear to me".
You think to yourself.... "could it really have been JUST THAT THING????" Low and behold... the OPORD gets an OK from the Boss. Was it just that thing? Or was it another thing you were supposed to get out of this?
You will have come away from this with two learning objectives met..
1. What Commanders Intent is, and what role the CSM plays in that
2. Nobody is immune from games due to a "F up"
A couple years later, maybe this time in combat, maybe when you've taken Command of your own Battalion, you'll be tasked with writing another OPORD, this time maybe for a real assault, from the Regimental Commander. This time it's also not your weekend on the line, it's dude's lives. However, this time you won't hesitate to ask the CSM for help wargaming some ideas. Partly because you've been taught that lesson already, but also because one or two of your Company Commanders are dead, and the other BN Commanders are planning their own assaults. The Regimental Commander is 200 miles away and their comms have been touch and go all day.... but the CSM just pulled into your FOB with the re-supply convoy (The Regimental Commander sent him along, as the Assistant Convoy Commander, with the S4 Captain in the lead). You may have missed them completely if your HQ Company 1stSgt hadn't popped in and reminded you, good thing he had that whole thing covered, because you had completely forgotten about it after being up all night the night before last when 3rd platoon was in that nasty TIC. Will the CSM get some sleep before leaving in the morning with the convoy? No, he'll stay up all night and help you plan your operation. The S4 Captain needs the rest more than him.
Because when the CSM gets back to HQ..... nobody gives him orders except the Commander.
This is a link to a paper that gives some overview of the role of Command Senior Enlisted Leaders, you'll notice there's two signatures on it, one from an E-9 and one from an 0-7, it's a non-satirical look at how this is generally supposed to work.
https://keystone.ndu.edu/Portals/86/command_sel_insightspaper_4thed_2021jun.pdf
Last edited:
Ridge Runner
AH legend
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2017
- Messages
- 3,762
- Reaction score
- 8,299
- Media
- 27
- Member of
- NMLRA, SCI,
- Hunted
- East Cape, South Africa, Zimbabwe
Possibly, but not likely.
When the unit's initial warning order came down and up until it was official everything would most likely have been verbal. Only when confirmed to be deployed would any written orders be issued.
________________________________________________
I was a "new hire" to the Group/Regiment, then assigned down to battalion. I was to replace the retiring Chief Warrant Officer (CWO) 4(?) or 5(?) who had temporarily held the position for 6(?) months prior to me being assigned permanently. The CWO I was replacing was the 3 CWO to hold that position in 2-1/2 +/- years.
________________________________________________
Deployment Time Line:
According to the Group Commander 05 (lieutenant colonel), from State HQ down to the Detachments were aware of the possibility of deployments 3 years prior to my arrival.
At 2 years prior to deployment State HQ down to Battalions were given the upgraded Warning Orders.
At 1 year prior to our deployment written confirmation orders were issued to all deploying unit's, to include guesstimated time lines.
At 6 months prior to deployment:
I replaced the CWO,
brigade, group, battalion, companies received wriitten deployment orders with confirmed time lines.
At 30 days prior to deployment individual soldiers were issued their respective movement or new ("Acting Jack") assignment orders.
________________________________________________
The unit I deployed with like Waltz's unit is a heavy unit. National Guard and Reserve units, with exceptions, are not the best equipped units.
IMO&E, Waltz knew at least 2 if not 3 years prior to, that his unit was up for possible deployment. And IMO he "milked" his time to increase his retirement pay percentage.
“appeared to involve the use of armored fighting vehicles donated to Kyiv by the United States and its European partners — a development that drew no immediate objection from the Biden administration despite its past restrictions on such use of American weaponry.”Strieff just posted an update over on RedState on the Ukrainian attack into Russia. Thorough as always.
Though I think he may be reading my posts on AH.
Man, I sure would like to know why the dramatic change all of a sudden.
Biden wants credit before he leaves ?
Doesn’t want Trump to be seen as mediating peace?
Biden is benefiting somehow to look the other way. Part of his promised early retirement package?
This piece of Ukrainian held ground is a game changer
So The Harris Walz campaign will now retreat from the military hero part of the platform.
Vance can now move to every other part of his past and destroy it.
His taking kids to China to learn because the Democrat led education system is a disaster. Full of graft and corruption.
His Dictator Covid response
His lack of response to “mainly peaceful protests/riots”
Gender surgery for adolescents
Taxes
Drivers licenses for people here illegally
One praise Walz gets from me is the free tampons.
With New Mogadishu being such a crap hole, tampons work great for filling in bullet holes
Take this commie down
Vance can now move to every other part of his past and destroy it.
His taking kids to China to learn because the Democrat led education system is a disaster. Full of graft and corruption.
His Dictator Covid response
His lack of response to “mainly peaceful protests/riots”
Gender surgery for adolescents
Taxes
Drivers licenses for people here illegally
One praise Walz gets from me is the free tampons.
With New Mogadishu being such a crap hole, tampons work great for filling in bullet holes
Take this commie down
Last edited:
LivingTheDream
AH legend
My guess is that Ukraine doesn't particular care what this administration says and is going to do what is necessary to help them get to a stronger position to negotiate. Kind of an ask for forgiveness rather than permission type of thing.
If I may.
Tanks can certainly defend his statement himself, but I think the point he was trying to make was that being a senior NCO in the military does not make someone immediately qualified to be President. It would help with perspective on military decisions.
But some of our best, most consequential and decisive presidents were not in the military, but had great instincts. I think good instincts are the best attribute.
Eisenhower was a great military commander, but an average president
Tanks can certainly defend his statement himself, but I think the point he was trying to make was that being a senior NCO in the military does not make someone immediately qualified to be President. It would help with perspective on military decisions.
But some of our best, most consequential and decisive presidents were not in the military, but had great instincts. I think good instincts are the best attribute.
Eisenhower was a great military commander, but an average president
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2011
- Messages
- 6,319
- Reaction score
- 18,892
- Media
- 147
- Member of
- NRA life, DSC, SCI
- Hunted
- Minnesota, Texas, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, British Columbia, Argentina, Kansas, Macedonia, Australia, Tanzania, Iceland
mdwest
AH ambassador
As a former officer in an NG SOF unit I relied heavily on the SNCOs for wisdom and experience prior to making the vast majority of decisions I made… and, I was a mustang (former NCO myself).
No one knows or understands how the machine works better than an SNCO. He has the daily relationships with the junior NCOs and enlisted guys, that the officers simply don’t (and shouldn’t) have…He knows their individual strengths and weaknesses, know the smaller units collective strengths and weaknesses, etc and he spent years in each of those lower ranks personally experiencing the struggles and challenges of a squad leader, platoon sergeant, etc…
There is a reason SNCOs are now commonly titled “Senior Advisor” to the Chief of Staff of the Army, Senior Advisor to the Division Commander, etc… because that is a critical role many of them play. That commander may in fact be the guy that calls the final shot and makes the decision as to what a brigade is going to do.. but he’s not going to call that shot without obtaining advice and counsel from his CSM first.. who absolutely understands every nuance of the internal workings of that brigade down to which E6 has the best squad for the most critical task in this particular mission, which captain has the best grasp of the mission set, and which Lt Colonel has the best maintenance program and best BMO in place, and therefore has the most vehicles road worthy and capable of supporting the mission requirements..
No one knows or understands how the machine works better than an SNCO. He has the daily relationships with the junior NCOs and enlisted guys, that the officers simply don’t (and shouldn’t) have…He knows their individual strengths and weaknesses, know the smaller units collective strengths and weaknesses, etc and he spent years in each of those lower ranks personally experiencing the struggles and challenges of a squad leader, platoon sergeant, etc…
There is a reason SNCOs are now commonly titled “Senior Advisor” to the Chief of Staff of the Army, Senior Advisor to the Division Commander, etc… because that is a critical role many of them play. That commander may in fact be the guy that calls the final shot and makes the decision as to what a brigade is going to do.. but he’s not going to call that shot without obtaining advice and counsel from his CSM first.. who absolutely understands every nuance of the internal workings of that brigade down to which E6 has the best squad for the most critical task in this particular mission, which captain has the best grasp of the mission set, and which Lt Colonel has the best maintenance program and best BMO in place, and therefore has the most vehicles road worthy and capable of supporting the mission requirements..
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2012
- Messages
- 1,223
- Reaction score
- 1,839
- Media
- 165
- Member of
- Life Member SCI, Benefactor NRA, NMLRA.
- Hunted
- RSA, Namibia
At 7:26AM my weather station has humidity at 91% with a temp of 79. By midday it is going to be a miserable bitch for sure. You made the right decision.
The best senior Line Officers I worked with always had a competent senior enlisted at his side to help make educated decisions.
The best senior enlisted respected military order and always deferred to an O-1 in public. but coached the O-1 in private.
But I have seen the opposite also. Terrible senior enlisted and terrible senior officers. That did not use each others talents effectively
The best senior enlisted respected military order and always deferred to an O-1 in public. but coached the O-1 in private.
But I have seen the opposite also. Terrible senior enlisted and terrible senior officers. That did not use each others talents effectively
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2015
- Messages
- 7,536
- Reaction score
- 19,813
- Location
- Shreveport, Louisiana
- Media
- 269
- Articles
- 5
- Member of
- NRA, DSC
- Hunted
- Nam, Zam, Zim,RSA (Eastern Cape & NW), Canada, NZ, Alaska, TX, LA, MO, OH, MT, ID, WA, WY
@Corey0372 while you did an excellent job of explaining why the military requires (demands) that leaders respect superiors, peers and subordinates in all dealings, I would add that the Commander in Chief should also be held to these standards.
He had been selected for promotion. The Guard, unlike active duty has an extended period, I believe three years for a SGM/CSM/E9, to complete the qualifying academy training. Also, to retire at a certain rank one has to have served at the promoted level for a specified period of time. On active duty it is two years. At the time of his retirement he had neither completed the schooling nor had he served long enough at the new rank. As a result he retired for pay purposes as an E8 Master Sergeant.
I actually have no real issue with him using the term Sergeant Major. He was indeed board selected for that rank whether he completed enough training and time to retire at it. My issue is retirement just before his battalion was notified for deployment to an actual war zone.
Last edited:
mdwest
AH ambassador
Completely concur…
As the unit CSM he would have literally been one of the very first people in the unit to become aware of that deployment, and that initial notice would have been delivered a year or more in advance.
I know the field artillery BN in West TN that is part of a larger armored brigade was notified a year in advance.. they needed the time for pre deployment training, prepping equipment, etc… that would have been around the 2008 time frame… and that year advanced notice was to support a 6 month deployment…
Even active duty units get word well in advance in all but the most extreme cases… a good friends son was an O3 in the 4th ID about 12 months ago when they deployed to Central Europe in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine… they knew a full 6 months in advance (possibly longer) down to the squad level that they were deploying…
There is no way Walz didn’t know his unit was going to war prior to making the decision to get out…
If you want to see something instructive in the way social media conspires to shape public opinion, go to google and type "Walz stolen valor." You will get pages of opinion on why this is not so, complete with misquotes and misinformation about everything from promotions to deployment notification.
And yes, short of an an incident like 911, a unit full of civilians with civilian responsibilities is notified a year to 18 months before formal deployment orders are issued. He knew.
And yes, short of an an incident like 911, a unit full of civilians with civilian responsibilities is notified a year to 18 months before formal deployment orders are issued. He knew.
SaintPanzer
AH enthusiast
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2021
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 1,381
- Location
- Somewhere west of Laramie
- Media
- 1
- Member of
- Dallas Safari Club; NRA Life Member; Mannlicher Collectors Association
- Hunted
- USA, Germany, Poland
Honestly, on September 12, 2001, I don't think there was an Active Component, Reserve Component, or National Guardsman who didn't know the word was coming. It was not a question of "if", but "when".
I can also remember a stop-loss period where no one was leaving, whether through retirement of end of contract.
And speaking of end of contract, he had time left on his contract when he asked to retire, so he did not even complete his last enlistment. This also matters.
He knew. He abandoned his troops. That's bad enough when an E3 does it, but a senior NCO?
Shame.
roverandbrew
AH enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2013
- Messages
- 450
- Reaction score
- 1,286
- Media
- 42
- Hunted
- United States, South Africa, Zambia
What I find interesting is there could be quite reasonable or justifiable explanations for him not taking the battalion to Iraq. The lack of clarification on his part is what I find weird. An example could be slate timelines. On the active duty side of the house a Battalion Commander or Command Sergeant Major generally gets 24 months in the seat. If a sitting member of the Command Team or staff is long in the tooth they often swap them out a tad early or extend their timing to ensure continuity is maintained during the deployment. My last deployment as a CSM I was extended so we did not swap out in country. I have seen people pulled early so the incoming could do the full train up and deployment. I am unsure how long Waltz had been already in the seat and I am not read up on NG and Reserve command slate timelines. I do know a NG mobilization generally takes a bit of time.
roverandbrew
AH enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2013
- Messages
- 450
- Reaction score
- 1,286
- Media
- 42
- Hunted
- United States, South Africa, Zambia
I am not clear how the NG or Reserves work. In the Army there is no "contract" or true obligation past 20 years. If you had a bonus to stay past 20 you just pay it back. If you owe time for high three or conditional promotion you just get reduced. That is an admin function.
Members online
- UKHunter
- Beaufort
- Jakob
- 457121
- Llano Estacado
- skydiver386
- Doug Hamilton
- chuckwellington
- Caveman
- Brian
- JMM
- glblanchard
- Fredsfun
- Mountaineer
- Hunt anything
- Corey0372
- Wahoo
- Rando8586
- Mark R
- Borderer
- redriver
- rnovi
- 93marlin
- degoins
- bobdahunter84
- Milo
- John J
- VINOYASADO
- Badboymelvin
- erg281
- Alistair
- Kynoch2015
- RR 314
- Flipper Dude
- jasyblood
- SherlockHunter
- Cheesehead
- BryceM
- wesheltonj
- cajunchefray
- USN
- steve white
- CO_mtnman
- Waterbuck2008
- BTB Joe
- CBeck
- meigsbucks
- BJH65
- BoarHog375
- Woodcarver
Forum statistics
Latest profile posts
Everyone always thinks about the worst thing that can happen, maybe ask yourself what's the best outcome that could happen?
