Politics

[Newboomer]

Another of these interesting clips from the battlefield. Two Russian soldiers have been tasked to drag a wounded comrade to safety ..................

https://twitter.com/x/status/1728078630134136972

Damn! Hit one of them and the other untouched right next to him.

 

[flatwater bill]

No, the "Needless war" argument for the Ukraine war is tied only to facts. Keeping the emotion, rhetoric, chest pounding and references to forefathers out of the equation, the war is not helping anyone. Has it helped:
Ukraine? Nope, they're suffering, infrastructure devastated, young men killed by the tens of thousands.
Europe? Nope. Their energy supply diminished with the Nord Stream pipeline, and facing a cold winter.
Russia? Nope. They have lost many young men. Boys who didn't want to be there either. And lost much of their economic base.
USA? No. $26 billion in munitions alone! Money that could have been used in a thousand ways for infrastructure, education, health care, border. That in a country whose OMB admits that in 8 years the entire US tax base will only cover interest on the National debt plus entitlements and in 10 years Soc Security will be broke. (Ya, look it up.)
Who benefited? Zelenskyy.....he's Man of The Year for 2022. (Is he a good man? Probably.)
And those who are vested in the weapons industry in the US (eg Lockheed-Martin or Raytheon) Those are the only winners here. But at what a cost.
Those who have even wanted to DISCUSS the war, were attacked as "Russian Agents" and like Tulsi Gabbard, fired from the Democratic Party....,Tucker attacked. Russell kicked off of YT
But the World is complex now. Much too complex to continue with a narrative like "we good, They bad" That's what the major news media told us over and over again. We need to discuss both sides of every issue. Stop the censorship and the propaganda.
Stories like "Russia blew up the Nord Stream".....no, We did. Stories like "Russia blew up the Kirsch Bridge (nope, Ukraine did, their defense minister said so in July 23) Stories like "Russia is shelling the Zaporizhia Nuclear Plant".....no, Ukraine has admitted to drone attacks. This propaganda is designed to stir emotion and hate. Russia does the same.....or worse to their people.
Today, MSNBC and WaPo, finally admitted that a forever war in Ukraine is not sustainable. Dozens of opportunities for peace have been wasted, but as Richard Haas and Charles Kupchan (former dem war shills) announced, the next opportunity needs to be seized. Today Russell aired an interview with Ukraine's chief negotiator who told how The West had vetoed a peace plan early on.
If a forever war is in your best interests, or if after evaluating it on your own you truly believe it is a good thing, then beat your chest and pound the drums. If you're not sure, dig a little deeper.
Good hunting to all in the coming year...........................FWB

 

[WAB]

No, the "Needless war" argument for the Ukraine war is tied only to facts. Keeping the emotion, rhetoric, chest pounding and references to forefathers out of the equation, the war is not helping anyone. Has it helped:
Ukraine? Nope, they're suffering, infrastructure devastated, young men killed by the tens of thousands.
Europe? Nope. Their energy supply diminished with the Nord Stream pipeline, and facing a cold winter.
Russia? Nope. They have lost many young men. Boys who didn't want to be there either. And lost much of their economic base.
USA? No. $26 billion in munitions alone! Money that could have been used in a thousand ways for infrastructure, education, health care, border. That in a country whose OMB admits that in 8 years the entire US tax base will only cover interest on the National debt plus entitlements and in 10 years Soc Security will be broke. (Ya, look it up.)
Who benefited? Zelenskyy.....he's Man of The Year for 2022. (Is he a good man? Probably.)
And those who are vested in the weapons industry in the US (eg Lockheed-Martin or Raytheon) Those are the only winners here. But at what a cost.
Those who have even wanted to DISCUSS the war, were attacked as "Russian Agents" and like Tulsi Gabbard, fired from the Democratic Party....,Tucker attacked. Russell kicked off of YT
But the World is complex now. Much too complex to continue with a narrative like "we good, They bad" That's what the major news media told us over and over again. We need to discuss both sides of every issue. Stop the censorship and the propaganda.
Stories like "Russia blew up the Nord Stream".....no, We did. Stories like "Russia blew up the Kirsch Bridge (nope, Ukraine did, their defense minister said so in July 23) Stories like "Russia is shelling the Zaporizhia Nuclear Plant".....no, Ukraine has admitted to drone attacks. This propaganda is designed to stir emotion and hate. Russia does the same.....or worse to their people.
Today, MSNBC and WaPo, finally admitted that a forever war in Ukraine is not sustainable. Dozens of opportunities for peace have been wasted, but as Richard Haas and Charles Kupchan (former dem war shills) announced, the next opportunity needs to be seized. Today Russell aired an interview with Ukraine's chief negotiator who told how The West had vetoed a peace plan early on.
If a forever war is in your best interests, or if after evaluating it on your own you truly believe it is a good thing, then beat your chest and pound the drums. If you're not sure, dig a little deeper.
Good hunting to all in the coming year...........................FWB

Of course the war hasn’t benefited Ukraine. They suffered an unprovoked attack from an aggressive neighbor and they have suffered as a result. Just what would you have them do, give their country away? How would you have us respond if a neighboring nation invades the US???

As to whether the war is needless. The war is absolutely needless from a Russian POV. They should never have attacked and they are paying a terrible price for their folly. The war is life and death for Ukraine and likely some of their neighbors as well.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your point?

 

[dobber]

How would you have us respond if a neighboring nation invades the US???

Like what's happening at the Southern border?

 

[WAB]

Like what's happening at the Southern border?

Umm no, not like that at all. I’m totally against what is going on at our southern border, but it is nothing like what Ukraine has experienced.

 

[Brent in Az]

The whole world has gone full Fucktard.

 

[Captain Munro]

I will gladly eat vegans and vegetarians before I give up meat.

 

[Doug3006]

Russia believes, with good reason historically, that subjugating Ukraine is vitally important. Russia’s history is one of repeated invasion attempts by its neighbors. Their geography is no help. The steppes of Russia make it relatively easy to invade. At least in the summer.

So Russia believes they need a safe buffer between them and Western Europe. If they can control the relatively few gaps in the otherwise mountainous terrain of their bordering neighbors, they can focus their defense on a few narrow fronts.

I remember learning in high school about the Fulda Gap in Germany and it’s strategic importance to the Soviet Union. It was and is one of the few places either side could launch its tanks into or out of the other’s backyard. I’d imagine @redleg spent some of his career preparing for that very thing.

Unfortunately for Ukraine, the Crimean Peninsula is another key to Russia’s sense of security. There are similar gaps the Russians feel they must control in places like Poland, Bulgaria and other Eastern European countries. Some of whom are in NATO. What does that tell us about Russia’s plans for the future?

None of this is to say Putin and Russia are right or that Russia has any legitimate security claims on its neighbors. But it is what motivates them. We should pay attention.

 

[Hunt anything]

The whole world has gone full Fucktard.
View attachment 571868

Pretty much all of my meat is plant based except the fish, shrimp and crabs. The venison, beef, poultry and pork all process plants and I process them into tasty meals !

 

[Red Leg]

No, the "Needless war" argument for the Ukraine war is tied only to facts. Keeping the emotion, rhetoric, chest pounding and references to forefathers out of the equation, the war is not helping anyone. Has it helped:
Ukraine? Nope, they're suffering, infrastructure devastated, young men killed by the tens of thousands.
Europe? Nope. Their energy supply diminished with the Nord Stream pipeline, and facing a cold winter.
Russia? Nope. They have lost many young men. Boys who didn't want to be there either. And lost much of their economic base.
USA? No. $26 billion in munitions alone! Money that could have been used in a thousand ways for infrastructure, education, health care, border. That in a country whose OMB admits that in 8 years the entire US tax base will only cover interest on the National debt plus entitlements and in 10 years Soc Security will be broke. (Ya, look it up.)
Who benefited? Zelenskyy.....he's Man of The Year for 2022. (Is he a good man? Probably.)
And those who are vested in the weapons industry in the US (eg Lockheed-Martin or Raytheon) Those are the only winners here. But at what a cost.
Those who have even wanted to DISCUSS the war, were attacked as "Russian Agents" and like Tulsi Gabbard, fired from the Democratic Party....,Tucker attacked. Russell kicked off of YT
But the World is complex now. Much too complex to continue with a narrative like "we good, They bad" That's what the major news media told us over and over again. We need to discuss both sides of every issue. Stop the censorship and the propaganda.
Stories like "Russia blew up the Nord Stream".....no, We did. Stories like "Russia blew up the Kirsch Bridge (nope, Ukraine did, their defense minister said so in July 23) Stories like "Russia is shelling the Zaporizhia Nuclear Plant".....no, Ukraine has admitted to drone attacks. This propaganda is designed to stir emotion and hate. Russia does the same.....or worse to their people.
Today, MSNBC and WaPo, finally admitted that a forever war in Ukraine is not sustainable. Dozens of opportunities for peace have been wasted, but as Richard Haas and Charles Kupchan (former dem war shills) announced, the next opportunity needs to be seized. Today Russell aired an interview with Ukraine's chief negotiator who told how The West had vetoed a peace plan early on.
If a forever war is in your best interests, or if after evaluating it on your own you truly believe it is a good thing, then beat your chest and pound the drums. If you're not sure, dig a little deeper.
Good hunting to all in the coming year...........................FWB

I sincerely appreciate the long response, but after reading it, I now truly have no idea what you mean by "needless war." Presumably, your definition must apply to all war. Apparently pacifism is the only response to any provocation - including an existential one? Certainly the Ukrainian people have suffered a great deal, and were the war to end tomorrow, it will affect them one way or another for the rest of their lives. But that is true of the citizens of all countries fighting a war to preserve their very existence as a nation state.

So let's take a moment an look how it will affect them. Had they done nothing on the 24th of February, they would have been conquered by a neighboring despotic nation. Their dreams of personal and economic freedom as members of the Western European community of nations would have been snuffed out under the boot heels of Vladamir Putin's army and secret police. Their children would have faced a bleak totalitarian future after thirty-years of relative economic prosperity.

Now it may well be true many Americans, probably most, can't find Ukraine on a map or have the least understanding of European history. But as you note, the world is indeed nuanced and great powers like the US, regardless of the ignorance of its population, do not have the luxury of hiding behind their physical borders. I assume you understand our economic frontier runs through Europe and far across the pacific. What happens there affects every aspect of our lives and prosperity. It is why we found ourselves in two world wars and creating NATO in spite of well meaning but innocently ignorant politicians who have periodically preached isolationism.

From a national interest perspective, the United States frankly does not care very much about Ukraine specifically - after all and as you correctly note the world is a nuanced place. Whether or not Ukrainians achieve their goal of a liberated and independent future is important but not critical to our national existence. However, and it is a really important however, the potential reemergence of Russia as a powerful and dangerous adversary, particularly one in alliance with China, is a significant concern. The annexation of Ukraine, its population and its vast resources, would greatly accelerate both the growth and eventual extent of that threat. The determination of the Ukrainian people to preserve their right of self-determination offers the US and its allies in NATO the opportunity to greatly diminish that emerging concern. It would be the height of national stupidity not to assist Ukraine.

The cost argument is in my view the weakest of all. First, the amount of military aid is roughly $50 billion - I do not need to look it up. Our budget is three trillion dollars. That $50 billion truly is little more than a round-off and does not prevent the administration from doing anything else to include protecting our southern border or funding social security. Do the math. Even then, most of that is really a budget drill. For instance, every armored vehicle we have provided Ukraine has been excess to our needs. They are given a value, and that value is subtracted from the Congressional allocation. Not a penny actually changes hands. Vehicles like the M113 APC of which we have provided several hundred were being sold for scrap for as little as a dollar a piece. The munitions we have provided have been our oldest in the stockpile. Everyone of which fired at a Russian is one we do not have to pay to demil. Yes, we will replace many of them (we have self-banned our cluster technology), but the older munitions would have had to have been replaced regardless.

With respect to Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and that evil defense industry, where do you think that money goes? Serious question. They don't stuff mattresses with the 10-15% profit they make - it is further invested or paid to share holders. That, in turn, is spent or further invested yet again. The remaining 85-90% of contract value goes to things like salaries, infrastructure, medical insurance, and the supply chain which also drives economic prosperity far beyond the company campuses.

I agree that the appeasers have gained new life now that the anticipated summer offensive wasn't as successful as many in the West hoped - nothing like a quick end to a conflict. Negotiations to end the war on Russia's terms have indeed always been an option. That course of action has gained new life as terms like 'frozen conflict" are suddenly popular. Actually it is Ukraine and not this administration that has rejected them.

I am among those who do not believe the conflict is frozen - far from it. Russia can not sustain the casualties it is suffering. The correlation of forces gap between the Russians and Ukrainians continues to narrow. From a technical perspective, Ukrainian combat power is far greater today than it was at the start of the war - Russia's is far less. Ukraine has driven the Russian Navy from the Black Sea, and Russian can not fly an aircraft in Ukrainian airspace and have it survive.

Assuming continued determination by Ukraine to stay the course, Putin's only realistic hope is that the West and this administration in particular, as evidenced by our hasty departure from Afghanistan, will force Ukraine to accept the equivalent of defeat. Failing that, Putin will await a Trump administration, who judging by his supporters, seems determined to give him a free hand in central Europe.

I tried to offer historical perspective which you dismissed out of hand as "emotion, rhetoric, chest pounding and references to forefathers." Our war for independence with our desperate reliance upon French military support and Dutch economic aid, actually offers a pretty reasonable analogy to Ukraine's battle for self-determination today. It is worth noting that war took eight years.

 

[Red Leg]

The whole world has gone full Fucktard.
View attachment 571868

Saw that. Of course the UN can't actually order anything - not even a vegan lunch.

 

[flatwater bill]

Your opinions differ from mine. I can accept that. Wars that are easily prevented or stopped are needless. My definition. Your may vary.............FWB

 

[Zambezi]

To add, I think the anti war people (or let's just promote a Ukrainian surrender people or it's costing too much people) are also maybe being a little short sighted. Who do you think is going to get the contracts to rebuild Ukraine? Who is going to benefit from the availability of Ukraine's natural resources? I can bet my bottom dollar that the USA is going to be climbing in feet first (as they rightly should)

Put it this way, $1million bomb destroys an apartment block that costs $10milliom to rebuild. Sounds like good work for construction workers after the war. The list goes on.

I bet those that say Ukraine is not their business or sphere of influence will be clamouring for the rebuild contracts post-war. All of a sudden Ukraine will be very important when the dollars (that you paid pennies for) start flowing the other way. War is business. Ukraine will start buying NATO / US armaments in the future amongst a mountain of other US / Western goods. They won't be looking to Russia anymore for those goods.

Plus Russia will be a shadow of itself (if it was ever anything more).

 

[Red Leg]

Your opinions differ from mine. I can accept that. Wars that are easily prevented or stopped are needless. My definition. Your may vary.............FWB

That I can follow. I do believe that this war could have been prevented. Our bumbling president and national security team instead practically green-lighted the Russian attack. I think they were taken aback by the extent of the invasion and Ukrainian determination to resist. Thanks to political division over the war in the West and particularly in the US, I think this war can only easily be stopped by the negotiated equivalent of a Russian victory. Until Putin is convinced the West will stay the course or his losses become unsustainable, he will attempt to achieve his strategic objectives. As I note above, I think that would be grave mistake and serious blow to our critical national interests.

 

[bowjijohn]

Far from close to over

More threats from Russia if Poland 'lends a hand' to new NATO ally Finland

Finland is currently trying to deal with an asymmetric attack by Russia who is using illegals on its Russian / Finnish border

Kremlin warns of tensions if Poland sends troops to Finnish-Russian border

Any decision by Finland to allow a "concentration" of troops on its border with Russia would be viewed by Moscow as a threat, the Kremlin said on Wednesday, after Poland offered to send military advisers to help Helsinki police the frontier.

www.reuters.com

 

[ActionBob]

You All can visit the grocery store to see how the Ukrainian war has impacted your family. The Russian invasion of Ukrain instantly ran the cost of fertilizer up 300%!

Now Agriculture is mostly a commodity production business. That means we are price takers not usually price makers. However we are also some of the strongest Capitalists there are. Yes the government gets involved to meddle with that, but since Reagan and Freedom to Farm, prices of Agriculture commodities have largely been set by the market which is a function of supply and demand. i.e. raise the cost of fertilizer, less will be used, lower yields will result and supply tightens. Now it is not quite that simple because commodities are traded and heavily hedged and speculated on. Which I think is ultimately a good thing as long as those markefs are kept fair and honest. That speculation pretty much immediately pushed the prices of corn, wheat and most other commodities higher long before the supply tightened up. That is much more efficient as it anticipated tighter supplied via higher cost of production, raised prices to accommodate those higher input costs and thus held production yields higher than they would have been. Staving off the starvation that was predicted. Our Capitalist system works extremely well and responds quickly! It works pretty much the same in the oil market.

Now there was a shortage of grain as Ukraine could not get their surplus shipped out for a while, but that was quickly overcome.

Yes Biden had policy in place that raised energy costs. But then the Ukraine war hit like a perfect storm and added to that.

This war has hit everyone's pocket book very hard! I would agree with @Red Leg that the military aid we sent to Ukraine is a pittance compared to the other costs and the cost of letting Russia run amuck over her neighbors.

There is very strong evidence that Putin or Russia would not stop at Ukraine.

Would a stronger and wiser President have prevented this war? I think probably yes. At least Putin would not have gotten that green light Biden gave him.

 

[WAB]

Your opinions differ from mine. I can accept that. Wars that are easily prevented or stopped are needless. My definition. Your may vary.............FWB

If your point is that the war could have been prevented, we agree. IMO the time to stand Russia down was 2014. We did not, leading to a bigger issue now. However, given that we are where we are, do you agree that it is right for Ukraine to defend itself? If so, is it not right to ask help of like interested nations in doing so?

 

[spike.t]

Pretty much all of my meat is plant based except the fish, shrimp and crabs. The venison, beef, poultry and pork all process plants and I process them into tasty meals !

Some fish and crustaceans graze....just saying

 

[spike.t]

Saw that. Of course the UN can't actually order anything - not even a vegan lunch.

Useless fkn bunch of muppets

 

[spike.t]

But then again I support Ukraine..Israel..Myanmar rebels taiwan etc etc....so am obviously a psychopath.....