Politics

[sestoppelman]

Care to be a little less cryptic? What exactly are you saying here?

Since you havent replied to my question, I am forced to make a guess at what you mean here. Please tell me I am wrong.

From previous posts and opinions, I am guessing you are OK with having a blithering idiot, anti American president ruining our country on a daily basis thru various edicts and means, as long as he sends billions of our tax dollars to Ukraine (critical national interests) ?

Is that it?

Please tell me I am wrong.

 

[Red Leg]

Since you havent replied to my question, I am forced to make a guess at what you mean here. Please tell me I am wrong.

From previous posts and opinions, I am guessing you are OK with having a blithering idiot, anti American president ruining our country on a daily basis thru various edicts and means, as long as he sends billions of our tax dollars to Ukraine (critical national interests) ?

Is that it?

Please tell me I am wrong.

Rather obsessed with this aren't you.

I am not only perfectly fine, I am begging God that in a number of key endeavors we continue to do the right thing regardless of which blithering idiot from whichever party is president. None of that means I "support" Joe Biden. I think he and his party are doing enormous harm to this country. But until an election allows us to do something about it, I am not so blind in my animus for him (that is a synonym for hatred or disgust) that I oppose everything being done by this administration. Fortunately, with regard to Ukraine, a majority of Republican representatives and senators are still smart enough to sort that out as well.

 

[sestoppelman]

Rather obsessed with this aren't you.

I am not only perfectly fine, I am begging God that in a number of key endeavors we continue to do the right thing regardless of which blithering idiot from whichever party is president. None of that means I "support" Joe Biden. I think he and his party are doing enormous harm to this country. But until an election allows us to do something about it, I am not so blind in my animus for him (that is a synonym for hatred or disgust) that I oppose everything being done by this administration. Fortunately, with regard to Ukraine, a majority of Republican representatives and senators are still smart enough to sort that out as well.

Just wanted clarification, which you chose to ignore requiring a second try. Am fully aware what animus means, thanks.
And yes, I will admit, my disgust for Biden knows no bounds. He has done more damage to this country in two years than any other president I can think of in my lifetime which is the same as yours, though of course we have vastly different life experience.
If it meant getting rid of the rotting bag of perversion in the WH, and someone else chopped Ukraine off, I would view that as a win for America, which is being destroyed right in front of us, and supporting Ukraine may be a fine thing for the future, (that remains to be seen), in the near term what happens to America is more important to me than what happens to Ukraine.

Now I fully understand your position, and I disagree with it.
Nuff said.

 

[Red Leg]

Just wanted clarification, which you chose to ignore requiring a second try. Am fully aware what animus means, thanks.
And yes, I will admit, my disgust for Biden knows no bounds. He has done more damage to this country in two years than any other president I can think of in my lifetime which is the same as yours, though of course we have vastly different life experience.
If it meant getting rid of the rotting bag of perversion in the WH, and someone else chopped Ukraine off, I would view that as a win for America, which is being destroyed right in front of us, and supporting Ukraine may be a fine thing for the future, (that remains to be seen), in the near term what happens to America is more important to me than what happens to Ukraine.

Now I fully understand your position, and I disagree with it.
Nuff said.

I wasn't ignoring you. I simply thought I was perfectly clear the first time. But, I am now glad you fully understand my point of view. I think I understand yours as well. But so that we are clear with each other, I can not imagine the moral gymnastics of someone who holds this position.

If it meant getting rid of the rotting bag of perversion in the WH, and someone else chopped Ukraine off, I would view that as a win for America,

We'll agree to disagree.

 

[sestoppelman]

I wasn't ignoring you. I simply thought I was perfectly clear the first time. But, I am now glad you fully understand my point of view. I think I understand yours as well. But so that we are clear with each other, I can not imagine the moral gymnastics someone has to perform who holds this position.

We'll agree to disagree.

Not about moral gymnastics. Its about, in my view, whats best for America, and that would be shitcanning that dangerous pervert in the WH, at all costs.

 

[Red Leg]

Not about moral gymnastics. Its about, in my view, whats best for America, and that would be shitcanning that dangerous pervert in the WH, at all costs.

Ok, so let's continue the discussion. Explain to me how abandoning Ukraine and its people to Russian domination furthers either our national interests or "shitcanning the dangerous pervert in the WH."

 

[WAB]

Not about moral gymnastics. Its about, in my view, whats best for America, and that would be shitcanning that dangerous pervert in the WH, at all costs.

I think that the point is, even though we detest Joe Biden, we should not oppose everything he does just because he does it. In the case of Ukraine, Biden is doing the right thing, likely for all the wrong reasons, but still the right thing. Should we oppose support for Ukraine just because sleepy Joe supports it? I believe that we absolutely must support Ukraine. It is in our National self interest, we agreed to do so when they gave up their nukes, and it is morally the right thing to do.

 

[sestoppelman]

Ok, so let's continue the discussion. Explain to me how abandoning Ukraine and its people to Russian domination furthers either our national interests or "shitcanning the dangerous pervert in the WH."

Point is this. Suppose Biden died today. Gone, good riddance. Would support for Ukraine stop?
Likely not, but we would be rid of the scum in the WH.
I look at this way, if Biden supports something there must be a catch. He is wrong on every other thing in his administration but somehow right about Ukraine?
Not sure about that at all.
You asked about moral gymnastics. I would ask you the same. The mental gymnastics you must go thru to ignore the evil that is this Biden administration and the damage done to OUR country because of his policies, because he supports Ukraine?
That takes some doing allright.

 

[Wheels]

There’s a risk in bringing in people from abroad, who may not buy into the system in place. Closed societies like China are closed for a reason.

Covid got election laws changed. Democrat attorney's were working on getting election laws changed before the medical community could determine if people needed to wear masks. Almost like some attorneys knew it was going to happen.

I have thought that a "new improved" version of Covid or a completely different virus would come out prior to the 2024 elections to allow more mail in ballots/drop boxes, etc. I am surprised that Brix is against masking up. Good for her.

These new mask mandates may be a test run to see if American's are willing to respond the same way. It doesn't seem like American's will put up with this again.

 

[John Wasmuth]

…

 

[jpr9954]

There are lots of europeans who would LIKE to emigrate here, but policy holds them at arms bay while any gangbanger who can jump a fence is welcomed. They would be a better fit for a tech industry, too.

Our immigration policy has been stupid for a long time.

I look at Canada, Justin Trudeau notwithstanding, where if you bring a certain amount of money start a business or have special skills such as a physician, engineer, etc. you jump to the head of the line.

Likewise, we need to go back to what we did in the 40s and 50s and reinstitute the Bracero Program for farm workers. We need farm workers so why not do it legally as well as make it temporary.

 

[Red Leg]

Point is this. Suppose Biden died today. Gone, good riddance. Would support for Ukraine stop?
Likely not, but we would be rid of the scum in the WH.
I look at this way, if Biden supports something there must be a catch. He is wrong on every other thing in his administration but somehow right about Ukraine?
Not sure about that at all.
You asked about moral gymnastics. I would ask you the same. The mental gymnastics you must go thru to ignore the evil that is this Biden administration and the damage done to OUR country because of his policies, because he supports Ukraine?
That takes some doing allright.

I had hoped we would have a discussion about how supporting Russian interests is somehow in our national interests or how throwing the Ukrainian people under the bootheel of Russia after promising their security somehow would rid us of the "scum in the White House." So let us move on.

I will simply say that I do not perform mental gymnastics. I have no use or time for emotionalism with respect to policy or politics. My views with regard to national security are separate from any political movement or any president. Regardless of party or current demagogue, I am certain in my own mind where our national interests lie. That certitude is based upon a lot of years of practical experience and concerns a lot of issues other than Ukraine. I may be wrong with respect to Ukraine, but it will take a more informed argument than saying Biden sucks. And I would again note, the majority of my party's representatives still agree with me.

 

[WAB]

Point is this. Suppose Biden died today. Gone, good riddance. Would support for Ukraine stop?
Likely not, but we would be rid of the scum in the WH.
I look at this way, if Biden supports something there must be a catch. He is wrong on every other thing in his administration but somehow right about Ukraine?
Not sure about that at all.
You asked about moral gymnastics. I would ask you the same. The mental gymnastics you must go thru to ignore the evil that is this Biden administration and the damage done to OUR country because of his policies, because he supports Ukraine?
That takes some doing allright.

Why is it so difficult to conceive that Biden could be supporting Ukraine for villainous reasons, and yet that supporting Ukraine is actually the right thing to do? Do you think that we should go back on our word to Ukraine again, as we already did when we didn’t oppose the invasion of Crimea? Do you think we should support Putin’s empire building at the risk of our own national security? Do you feel it is OK to fail to oppose the atrocities perpetrated by the Russian military?

 

[sestoppelman]

I think that the point is, even though we detest Joe Biden, we should not oppose everything he does just because he does it. In the case of Ukraine, Biden is doing the right thing, likely for all the wrong reasons, but still the right thing. Should we oppose support for Ukraine just because sleepy Joe supports it? I believe that we absolutely must support Ukraine. It is in our National self interest, we agreed to do so when they gave up their nukes, and it is morally the right thing to do.

OK so if its the moral and right thing to do, lets quit fucking around!
You guys think we should defend Ukraine, fine, defend them like we meant it, and not this half assed, drain our supplies and weaponry, proxy war we are engaged in that gets shit done!

Lets go whole hog and win this damn thing!

Lets send OUR guys over there to fight for and with them against the Bear, lets commit everything we have and put a stop to this invasion!

Right now we are just pissing against the wind, with half measures, and maybe we'll send jets over, well maybe not, NATO should step up, and more hand wringing!
BULLSHIT!

Get serious, send OUR troops and put everything we have into this right now!
Its the moral thing to do!!

That way we wont have to say I shoveled shit in Lousiana!

I had hoped we would have a discussion about how supporting Russian interests is somehow in our national interests or how throwing the Ukrainian people under the bootheel of Russia after promising their security somehow would rid us of the "scum in the White House." So let us move on.

I do not perform mental gymnastics. I have no use or time for emotionalism with respect to policy or politics. My views with regard to national security are separate from any political movement or any president. Regardless to party or current demagogue, I am certain in my own mind where our national interests lie. That certitude is based upon a lot of years of practical experience. I may be wrong with respect to Ukraine, but it will take a more informed argument than saying Biden sucks. And I would again note, the majority of my party's representatives still agree with me.

They may indeed agree with you, you could all be very wrong too. How committed are you to this fracas?
Read my above.
You guys crack me up. You guys talk moral BS and call anyone that disagrees a Chamberlain, well how bad do you want us to fight for Ukraine? Enuf to get serious or just keep dicking the dog and hoping Putin will go away?
Reup Joe, go over there and put your ass on the line for Ukraine. Ha, good luck with that.
Sheesh!

 

[Hunt anything]

Our immigration policy has been stupid for a long time.

I look at Canada, Justin Trudeau notwithstanding, where if you bring a certain amount of money start a business or have special skills such as a physician, engineer, etc. you jump to the head of the line.

Likewise, we need to go back to what we did in the 40s and 50s and reinstitute the Bracero Program for farm workers. We need farm workers so why not do it legally as well as make it temporary.

I can speak to the farm workers, on our farm we use the H2A program. Over the last 15 years we have gotten the same 10 guys through this program. They are all family and next year they want to bring a couple more family members. They come in mid February and leave in mid November by contract. So a program is out there for legal workers to come in but over the years the cost has gone up quite a bit. We provide a place to live and farm vehicles for transportation.

 

[Red Leg]

OK so if its the moral and right thing to do, lets quit fucking around!
You guys think we should defend Ukraine, fine, defend them like we meant it, and not this half assed, drain our supplies and weaponry, proxy war we are engaged in that gets shit done!

Lets go whole hog and win this damn thing!

Lets send OUR guys over there to fight for and with them against the Bear, lets commit everything we have and put a stop to this invasion!

Right now we are just pissing against the wind, with half measures, and maybe we'll send jets over, well maybe not, NATO should step up, and more hand wringing!
BULLSHIT!

Get serious, send OUR troops and put everything we have into this right now!
Its the moral thing to do!!

That way we wont have to say I shoveled shit in Lousiana!

They may indeed agree with you, you could all be very wrong too. How committed are you to this fracas?
Read my above.
You guys crack me up. You guys talk moral BS and call anyone that disagrees a Chamberlain, well how bad do you want us to fight for Ukraine? Enuf to get serious or just keep dicking the dog and hoping Putin will go away?
Reup Joe, go over there and put your ass on the line for Ukraine. Ha, good luck with that.
Sheesh!

So we understand each other, that screed reads like profane nonsense. I fully understand you have directed part of it to me personally. Only out of the respect with which I have held you, I will respond to it.

I do believe this administration could and should do more. If F-16's and Abrams make sense now, they made just as much sense a year or more ago. I wish that Jake Sullivan and DOD had acted far more forcibly than they have to date.

However, I do not think we should go to war with Russia. No one in their right mind does - nor do the Russians. Ukraine itself is courageously and effectively fighting for their right to exist as a free European people.. All they have asked is for NATO to help supply the tools. However effectively or inadequately we have done so to date, the amount is trivial compared to the trillions this administration is wasting elsewhere.

You have yet to offer a single reason why helping Russia achieve its expansionist ambitions is in the interests of the United States. I think it is because there are none. On the other hand, I have listed here many times why I and many others believe it is in our critical national interests not to allow Russia to be an ascendant power on the Eurasian continent allied to China. I think it is clearly in our national interests for China to realize its new alliance with Russia is actually a failing and likely expensive dependency.

This war will end in negotiations. I personally doubt the Russian delegation will be led by Putin when it does, but who knows. I am certain that it is in our national interests to ensure that it does not end with a perception of Russian victory.

The Ukrainian army will or will not break the Russian army in half along the Zaporizhzhia axis of advance. As I type this, they have broken the Russian main defensive belt and continue the attack. If they are successful, Russia will be begging for negotiations. If they are not, then we are likely looking at a frozen conflict. That would be a less than ideal outcome, but it would also be a far worse one for Russia than the West.

That said, I still believe Russia is playing with internal fire. 1917 could happen tomorrow or not at all.

 

[Tbitty]

@sestoppelman and @Red Leg

Let me propose a simple statement that I know you both agree with: Biden is a terrible president and crippling the United States.

Where you seem to differ is on the support for Ukraine. No matter which side of the fence you are on, it does not change the above agreement.

I've not read the last half dozen posts or so, perhaps you've come to this same stalemate. But I'm quite confident you're united in the stance of wanting Bidet gone in '24.

 

[Hunt anything]

I caught the tail end of a story earlier and can’t find it again, did Ukraine fire their Minister of defense?

 

[Red Leg]

I caught the tail end of a story earlier and can’t find it again, did Ukraine fire their Minister of defense?

The BBC has probably the most thorough and politically unbiased review of the issue.

Ukraine's defence minister Oleksii Reznikov dismissed

Ukraine's president dismisses Oleksii Reznikov, saying "new approaches" are needed.

www.bbc.com

 

[WAB]

I caught the tail end of a story earlier and can’t find it again, did Ukraine fire their Minister of defense?

Yes, a few days ago.