Politics

[Vintageguy]

When you get $45B in the omnibus spending packet yesterday but show up in Washington today to say it isn't enough and you need more.

View attachment 506854

What the heck is that on the first ladie’s waistline? I’m betting it’s a leash and the other end is attached to Joe’s back belt loop.

 

[Red Leg]

Interesting history lesson with obvious similarities to the current conflict in Ukraine. The quote that starts at 3:50 is particularly interesting.

Fascinating. The destruction of the centuries old Germanic culture of East Prussia is one of the many great tragedies of the second world war. Those civilians who didn't flee or were not killed were forcibly resettled in East Germany, or sent to work camps, or were made to simply disappear. Another parallel one should anticipate were Ukraine to fall under Russian control). There are honorific accounts about the Kriegsmarine's efforts to evacuate civilians from East Prussia. Called Operation Hannibal, the German Navy employed surviving freighters, warships and small boats. Numerous vessels were sunk in the icy waters of the Baltic between January and early May with huge losses of life.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I am at an utter loss to understand how anyone in the West can object to supporting Ukraine and giving Zelensky what he needs.
What is utterly annoying is that Europe is not stepping up to it's responsibilities more. Biden should force them to do so.
Why is it necessary?
Russia attacked Ukraine.
No sane person is suggesting that Russia be attacked, not even a foot on it's territory. All that needs to be done is to reverse the Ukraine fiasco, teach Russia that an attack on it's neighbours isn't acceptable and probably the least effective way to secure themselves. But it is also necessary to robustly and sincerely assure Russia that nobody will try to harm her either. Was this invasion triggered by fear of NATO or Russian territorial ambition? Only Vladimir Putin really knows. But I doubt he would have felt the need for either with the USA under Trump. Trump's offer of friendship was so roundly critisised by the Democrats, a chance was perhaps lost at the expense of their politicking. One thing is for sure, once Ukraine is sorted out an adult world leader needs to calm everybody down and cool the situation everywhere. Only the USA can pull that off, cometh the hour, cometh the man (or woman).

 

[Scott CWO]

I’m probably more hawkish than most. In the early 1990s we expelled Iraq from Kuwait. Take the gloves off. I think we should do the same this time - remove Russia from all of Ukraine. Yes, I know it’s different in some ways because Russia has nukes but I really doubt Russia would use them if we vowed to not put boots on Russian soil. They would be in no position to expand the war to the Baltics or Poland while fighting us with their incredibly inept military. The weapons and technology we have would wipe out Russian troops in Ukraine and set the Russian military back even further while sending a strong message to China about Taiwan. Our air power alone would handle most of it and we might have to bomb some anti-aircraft missile sites in Russia but does anyone really doubt we would have complete air superiority in a couple weeks?

Get this thing over with and reset the world economy already! I’ve had enough of this Putin thief!

 

[Doug3006]

I am at an utter loss to understand how anyone in the West can object to supporting Ukraine and giving Zelensky what he needs.
What is utterly annoying is that Europe is not stepping up to it's responsibilities more. Biden should force them to do so.
Why is it necessary?
Russia attacked Ukraine.
No sane person is suggesting that Russia be attacked, not even a foot on it's territory. All that needs to be done is to reverse the Ukraine fiasco, teach Russia that an attack on it's neighbours isn't acceptable and probably the least effective way to secure themselves. But it is also necessary to robustly and sincerely assure Russia that nobody will try to harm her either. Was this invasion triggered by fear of NATO or Russian territorial ambition? Only Vladimir Putin really knows. But I doubt he would have felt the need for either with the USA under Trump. Trump's offer of friendship was so roundly critisised by the Democrats, a chance was perhaps lost at the expense of their politicking. One thing is for sure, once Ukraine is sorted out an adult world leader needs to calm everybody down and cool the situation everywhere. Only the USA can pull that off, cometh the hour, cometh the man (or woman).

I’m with you Kevin. The pushback from Republicans is especially concerning. I think that conservative opposition is based on a number of concerns.

The most compelling argument, from a conservative perspective, is the financial one. Never-ending expenditures tend to wrankle conservatives like me. We want an accounting and an estimate of what more is required to achieve the desired outcome, whatever that may be. This is easier said than done, but it starts with a clearly stated end goal, which the administration doesn’t seem able to provide. My preferred mission statement would be: We seek to drive all Russian military units out of all occupied territory in Ukraine, including the Donbas and Crimea. Then you estimate what that will take in money and equipment.

Less convincing arguments to me include:

1. Not a dime more until x, y or z happens. Seal the southern border, kill the omnibus budget plan, get European nations to meet their military investment agreement, permanently ban night baseball, etc. If we believe that Ukrainian sovereignty and Russia behaving within modern norms (i.e., it’s totally not cool to invade a peaceful neighbor) then making support contingent on some other objective seems like we’re playing politics with the most consequential event of our age.

2. Ukrainian sovereignty isn’t in America’s national interest. Besides history being replete with examples to the contrary, arguing that it’s not our fight makes allies all over the world, not to mention adversaries like China, take notice.

3. Any more support will cross some red line and cause Putin to escalate. As @Red Leg has pointed out, Putin is already all in. Unless he decides to attack NATO or pop a nuke, there‘s not much else he can do. Besides, it’s a really bad idea to allow an adversary to dictate our National policy at the point of a gun.

I think it’s responsible to demand an accounting and insist that the aid we provide ties out to a clearly stated objective. However, playing politics with this crucial foreign policy crisis is irresponsible.

 

[Doug3006]

I’m probably more hawkish than most. In the early 1990s we expelled Iraq from Kuwait. Take the gloves off. I think we should do the same this time - remove Russia from all of Ukraine. Yes, I know it’s different in some ways because Russia has nukes but I really doubt Russia would use them if we vowed to not put boots on Russian soil. They would be in no position to expand the war to the Baltics or Poland while fighting us with their incredibly inept military. The weapons and technology we have would wipe out Russian troops in Ukraine and set the Russian military back even further while sending a strong message to China about Taiwan. Our air power alone would handle most of it and we might have to bomb some anti-aircraft missile sites in Russia but does anyone really doubt we would have complete air superiority in a couple weeks?

Get this thing over with and reset the world economy already! I’ve had enough of this Putin thief!

We’ll said!

 

[Vintageguy]

I am at an utter loss to understand how anyone in the West can object to supporting Ukraine and giving Zelensky what he needs.
What is utterly annoying is that Europe is not stepping up to it's responsibilities more. Biden should force them to do so.
Why is it necessary?
Russia attacked Ukraine.
No sane person is suggesting that Russia be attacked, not even a foot on it's territory. All that needs to be done is to reverse the Ukraine fiasco, teach Russia that an attack on it's neighbours isn't acceptable and probably the least effective way to secure themselves. But it is also necessary to robustly and sincerely assure Russia that nobody will try to harm her either. Was this invasion triggered by fear of NATO or Russian territorial ambition? Only Vladimir Putin really knows. But I doubt he would have felt the need for either with the USA under Trump. Trump's offer of friendship was so roundly critisised by the Democrats, a chance was perhaps lost at the expense of their politicking. One thing is for sure, once Ukraine is sorted out an adult world leader needs to calm everybody down and cool the situation everywhere. Only the USA can pull that off, cometh the hour, cometh the man (or woman).

This is purely an explanation of why I think many Americans don’t support, privately or actively, the war and not in anyway a call for anyone else to join one side or the other. I believe, here in the U.S. it has a root mostly in the loss of trust with politicians and the media. Nothing this complex is clear black and white. But our lack of integrity and leadership here in the media and politics has caused many a huge mistrust in anything they say or on the other side of the coin a mass of mindless brainwashed people who totally buy into anything they see in the news. These two groups are unable to discuss issues and see any middle ground. The lies and shocking straight up propaganda being pumped by the establishment in this country and much of the west on numerous topics has anyone who thinks critically for themselves and does just a little digging questioning everything and if they do so openly they are often attacked and that doesn’t help.
Every time they redefine something or get caught in a bald faced lie they reinforce the mistrust and division.
There was a lot of shady crap that went on between Ukraine and many in our government going back to the overthrow of the president of Ukraine and the way the establishment and media handled this was nothing short of criminal.
I’ve dug around on this topic enough to know there’s plenty not to trust out there and I view anyone who claims to know it all with suspicion. Lots of mistakes on both sides but one thing that I have found remains always true, you always have two groups of people in this world. Those who just want to be left alone to live their short lives as best they can and those who think they have some calling to impose themselves and their views on others by force if need be. I truly feel for those wanting to just live their lives caught in the middle of this but I honestly don’t see any leadership anywhere that I think is up to the job anymore.
The west has a cancer of politicians and media that would rather push their own agendas and have shown they don’t let things like truth and honesty interfere with that. They also have an unhealthy obsession with being reality tv stars rather than public servants.
So, a lot of jabber for what boils down to poor dishonest leadership and their loss of credibility and public trust. The people die for the stupidity, greed, and incompetence of their leaders. Always have.

 

[Randy F]

Sorry, I couldn’t stop myself. This is too funny given the debate…and I’ve had the Pfizer vax. (Maybe that says something in itself)

 

[Red Leg]

I’m with you Kevin. The pushback from Republicans is especially concerning. I think that conservative opposition is based on a number of concerns.

The most compelling argument, from a conservative perspective, is the financial one. Never-ending expenditures tend to wrankle conservatives like me. We want an accounting and an estimate of what more is required to achieve the desired outcome, whatever that may be. This is easier said than done, but it starts with a clearly stated end goal, which the administration doesn’t seem able to provide. My preferred mission statement would be: We seek to drive all Russian military units out of all occupied territory in Ukraine, including the Donbas and Crimea. Then you estimate what that will take in money and equipment.

Less convincing arguments to me include:

1. Not a dime more until x, y or z happens. Seal the southern border, kill the omnibus budget plan, get European nations to meet their military investment agreement, permanently ban night baseball, etc. If we believe that Ukrainian sovereignty and Russia behaving within modern norms (i.e., it’s totally not cool to invade a peaceful neighbor) then making support contingent on some other objective seems like we’re playing politics with the most consequential event of our age.

2. Ukrainian sovereignty isn’t in America’s national interest. Besides history being replete with examples to the contrary, arguing that it’s not our fight makes allies all over the world, not to mention adversaries like China, take notice.

3. Any more support will cross some red line and cause Putin to escalate. As @Red Leg has pointed out, Putin is already all in. Unless he decides to attack NATO or pop a nuke, there‘s not much else he can do. Besides, it’s a really bad idea to allow an adversary to dictate our National policy at the point of a gun.

I think it’s responsible to demand an accounting and insist that the aid we provide ties out to a clearly stated objective. However, playing politics with this crucial foreign policy crisis is irresponsible.

I am at an utter loss to understand how anyone in the West can object to supporting Ukraine and giving Zelensky what he needs.
What is utterly annoying is that Europe is not stepping up to it's responsibilities more. Biden should force them to do so.
Why is it necessary?
Russia attacked Ukraine.
No sane person is suggesting that Russia be attacked, not even a foot on it's territory. All that needs to be done is to reverse the Ukraine fiasco, teach Russia that an attack on it's neighbours isn't acceptable and probably the least effective way to secure themselves. But it is also necessary to robustly and sincerely assure Russia that nobody will try to harm her either. Was this invasion triggered by fear of NATO or Russian territorial ambition? Only Vladimir Putin really knows. But I doubt he would have felt the need for either with the USA under Trump. Trump's offer of friendship was so roundly critisised by the Democrats, a chance was perhaps lost at the expense of their politicking. One thing is for sure, once Ukraine is sorted out an adult world leader needs to calm everybody down and cool the situation everywhere. Only the USA can pull that off, cometh the hour, cometh the man (or woman).

I agree with both of you.

My belief in securing my nation's national interests is neither nuanced nor sophisticated enough to conclude supporting Russia's territorial ambitions and strategic objectives is good for my country - that choosing to support Russia and reject a European nation's aspirations to live as a free democratic people within the European community is somehow the right course of action for the leading democratic power in the world. And make no mistake about it, because the US through the Atlantic alliance, is the only force in the world capable of providing Ukraine the means to win this war, then not supporting them is in fact supporting Putin and his nation's strategic objectives.

This clarity of choice also underlies my frustration with the Biden administration's relative limited support for Ukraine (types of weapons rather than level of support) as much as it does the cynically manipulative political tweets of a Donald Trump Jr or MTG.

Providing Ukraine with only "defensive" weapons hamstrings them into a costly war of attrition while calling Zelensky a "welfare queen" to inflame a particular base to support an essentially unrelated political agenda are equally detrimental to resolving this catastrophe.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I am at an utter loss to understand how anyone in the West can object to supporting Ukraine and giving Zelensky what he needs.
What is utterly annoying is that Europe is not stepping up to it's responsibilities more. Biden should force them to do so.
Why is it necessary?
Russia attacked Ukraine.
No sane person is suggesting that Russia be attacked, not even a foot on it's territory. All that needs to be done is to reverse the Ukraine fiasco, teach Russia that an attack on it's neighbours isn't acceptable and probably the least effective way to secure themselves. But it is also necessary to robustly and sincerely assure Russia that nobody will try to harm her either. Was this invasion triggered by fear of NATO or Russian territorial ambition? Only Vladimir Putin really knows. But I doubt he would have felt the need for either with the USA under Trump. Trump's offer of friendship was so roundly critisised by the Democrats, a chance was perhaps lost at the expense of their politicking. One thing is for sure, once Ukraine is sorted out an adult world leader needs to calm everybody down and cool the situation everywhere. Only the USA can pull that off, cometh the hour, cometh the man (or woman).

I know .. We have a weak Leader & every adversary of ours Knows that.

And slow to respond, ie. Obama admin (Russia invading Georgia & Crimea) "Warm Blankets"

 

[Daniel Cary]

We're not Helping, in the proverbial sense, Ukraine .. We're Funding that War

Addl: If or When! this comes to end .. who's going to cover the Cost of Rebuilding Ukraine???



Does Zelensky have any other Clothes ; ?

 

[Daniel Cary]

And where's the Accountability. (US Citizens/Taxpayers) have the right to know where every dime is going to fund this war & we're Not Told.

 

[CoElkHunter]

After Putin invaded Georgia, "crickets" from the world's leaders. All I remember reading was, "Not much we can do", "We don't want to upset Putin", "Don't make Putin angry". Then Russia's army intentionally committing WAR CRIMES against the people of Syria and Obama refusing to give weapons to those fighting Bashar Assad for their very survival. Crickets again. "We don't want to upset Putin". I don't believe there were even any consequential sanctions placed on Russia in either of those instances? And here we are now with Putin's invasion of Ukraine on Eastern Europe's border and the Russian army committing thousands MORE intentional WAR CRIMES against the Ukranian populace. Somebody must have upset Putin this time? The free world hasn't learned a damn thing from WW2 and beyond when dealing with dictators such as Putin. And we have several more like him waiting in the wings. We don't want to upset them though.

 

[Pheroze]

This American is not a celebrity.

'Nobody ever came': American woman released same day as Griner recounts horror of Russian captivity

Sarah Krivanek was released Dec. 8, the same day that WNBA star Brittney Griner was released from Russian captivity.

abcnews-go-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Wheels]

Does Zelensky have any other Clothes ; ?

Are we sure a Biden appointee didn't steal Zelensky's suitcase at the airport.

 

[Wheels]

 

[Wheels]

 

[Brent in Az]

Zelenskyy makes a U.S cash dash. I wonder if he gave 10% to "The big guy"?

 

[John Wasmuth]

Zelenskyy makes a U.S cash dash. I wonder if he gave 10% to "The big guy"?

Oh I’m sure the big guy and a whole bunch of others are reaping the harvest…..

 

[Red Leg]

Maybe it is just me, but I just don't think French cuffs work for casual wear.