That's right, with the biggest country being Africa.....and don't you forget it.
Geography like that will keep your country in first place always and forever.
That's right, with the biggest country being Africa.....and don't you forget it.
Well PHASA and NAPHA picked a bun fight with their fellow hunters in shouting down hunting with dogs - those organisations hurt dedicated operators big time so my loyalties are zero for them. No apologies.
PHASA's resolution:
The official resolution adopted reads as follows:
At the 38th Annual General Meeting of the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa the majority of members present voted to distance the association from captive-bred lion hunting until such time as the South African Predator Association could prove the conservation value of this practice to both PHASA and the International Union for Conservation of Nature.
The above decision is effective immediately and is binding on all PHASA members. If any evidence arises implicating a PHASA member as having participated in the hunting or marketing of a captive-bred lion, such member will be subjected to PHASA’s internal disciplinary process, which will include expulsion if found guilty.
My best always
................ I honestly have no idea but I would like to see more discussion on addressing the issue.......... . Just my 2 cents.
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This vote could have been online from the PHASA website, where you need to enter your membership number to register your vote, in order for a more conclusive direction. Maybe it would be more overwhelmingly yes vote, I don't know, but 400 votes to decide on behalf of a few thousand members, hardly constitutes that "the members voted" IMHO.
This letter also copied from the SAPA site should help illustrate the perspective held by a "Lion Farmer"
Note the comment in red.
Has anyone seen these self sustaining prides that have been released and are now comparable to a free roaming pride?
A LION FARMER'S PLEA TO THE USFWS
CMP Safaris
P.O. BOX 4423
Tygervalley
Cape Town
7536
28 February 2014
Tel nr +27825500561
(Directors: Charles Robertson and Pieter van Zyl)
The Honorable Mr. Daniel Ashe
Director, United States Fish and Wildlife Services
Department of the Interior
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240
Dear Mr Ashe
On 27 January 2013, the organization that I am a member of, South African Predator Association filed a comment on the petition to list the African lion as “endangered” under the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Our comment is to be found under tracking number ljx-83ck-oamz. I, however still decided to take the time to compile these following notes addressed to you in a more personal capacity, being a South African Ranch Lion Farmer.
As mentioned I am a wild animal rancher, which in my country, South Africa, is known in short as a “Game Farmer”. I was born into, and grew up in a 7th - generation – farmers - family. I understand that according to USFWS current constitution it is a problem for you to exempt the “SA Ranch Lion” from the legislations and protocol that regulates the African Lion – which would have been the ideal scenario for us as Game Farmers - however, I would still like to try and give you better perspective on our situation by attempting to sketch a picture for you that illustrates our position as lion farmers today, comparing it to the South African Commercial Wildlife Trade and how it benefited South African natural wildlife itself over the past 20 years or so.
My dad, Dreyer van Zyl switched over from crop and cattle to game farming in 1987 and I myself finished school and became involved in this very same kind of business - game farming and hunting, since 1993.
About five years ago, a friend of mine, Charles Robertson and myself started exploring and began to involve ourselves in the business of lion farming and breeding lions for the commercial trophy hunting market. In the beginning, we found that the idea was somewhat strangely received by others, even people in the game industry, however to me, having been involved in game farming and game hunting business for over 20 years it was nothing new.
Our family farming business (see http://dreyervanzyl.com/index.php) has been breeding so many different kinds of Wild African Animals for different markets for decades now, whether it be for the market of breeding stock, trophy bulls, pregnant females, heifers and so on; all of those markets have one thing in common: the final products’ destination is in the commercial hunting sector in one form or the other.
Since 1987, the time when our family became directly involved in this trade, wild animal numbers have seriously increased all over South Africa. There were species that used to be so scarce that we as game farmers didn’t even really know them. Twenty years ago, very few South Africans actually were familiar with The Roan Antelope.
This is despite the fact that a couple of decades ago roans used to occur in SA naturally, but today, I myself and many other local farmers and hunters can testify to how wild animal numbers were stimulated through the commercial game farming industry; for example The Sable, Roan, Bontebok, Rietbok, Black Wildebeest and so on.
So to me, lion farming immediately made a lot of sense. Lions’ numbers are known to be diminishing across Africa but now we had an opportunity to breed with them and help multiply the population of African lions, like we have been doing for so many years with so many other African animal species, but I was shocked by how people reacted to us as lion ranchers accusing us of affecting the African Lion in a negative way. This statement never made any logical sense to me; on what grounds could someone argue that our trade will be a threat to the African Lion population where all we ever do is improve the condition of the species?
I can recall a time when many game farmers estimated a South African Sable population of around 1000. We are still very unsure of the accurate number today, but it will not surprise me if that number today is 20000 or more. Whichever way one looks at it, the fact is, there are plenty sable in SA today, no doubt!!
And this increase in their numbers happened while we as ranchers have been actively and aggressively marketing Sables for the commercial hunting industry for over 20 years on an annual basis.
Every year, we as an industry have been harvesting so many sable bulls and if you monitor it closely, like we do, without exception the next year there would just be more sable bulls for sale. That is why we are so proud in South Africa about our “sustainable utilization” principle that has been proving itself over and over again, year after year.
Lion population numbers across Africa might be on the decrease, most especially in countries such as Botswana and Zambia where hunting as a commercial industry receives a lot of resistance, however, take note of the fact that in our country this can never be the case as long as there is an existence right for the South African Ranch Lion Trade.
We have been breading, rearing, multiplying lion species’ numbers for a very long time. We have been improving the quality of the African Lion as a species for so many years - even decades and we would love to continue in doing so for many decades to come… I want to make an urgent appeal to you Sir, don’t allow the stopping of the import of lion product’s into the USA.
Ninety percent of our clients are American Citizens. If we were to loose USA citizens as our client foundation, our trade will surely close down. If our trade closes down, the South African Ranch Lion would spontaneously disappear. Think of what would be the fate of our 6000 or more lions in captivity if the demand for our product was to disappear. After 20 years in this industry, I still don’t know of Ranch Lion Farmers who would be able to afford to keep their lions and fend for them if they were to suddenly loose all commercial value.
Our point of view is that we as the Lion Farmers of SA do have a great contribution to make to the conservation of the African Lion and to say that the South African Ranch Lion Trade doesn’t contribute to the conservation of the African lion as a species is such a wrong and unfounded statement. We have been introducing ranch lions into the wild by the thousands over the last decade in South Africa. These lions hunt and feed naturally after their release within days and become completely self-sustainable in a matter of months, functioning completely independent, comparing to a free roaming pride anywhere in the wild.
Our booming game industry in SA, known as the Wildlife Ranching Industry (which is regulated by Wildlife Ranching South Africa) is a testimony to this; that apart from numbers of species that have dramatically improved over the last two decades as a result of our extremely successful game and hunt industry, the quality and size of the animals have also improved significantly. For example, roan bulls over 27’ was a really exotic item 10 years ago, where today, that size bulls would go through as “harvest” for hunting stock – few breeders currently would still consider a breeding roan bull under 30’.
Not too long ago, the Sable antelope was not even commonly known by wildlife enthusiasts in South Africa. Sable bulls measuring over 42’ were almost unheard of 15 years back. Since so many cattle and sheep farmers switched over or diversified into game breeding, this is no longer the case. Sable antelope are commonly found in South Africa now and today, many breeders use 47’ + bulls. There are even a couple of 50’ + around now, and the 42/43’ bulls would typically be hunted. Sable antelope as a species is on its way back to it’s former glory thankfully tot the Commercial Trophy hunting industry and the demand that it creates for breeders to improve it’s quality.
Exactly this is also the case with us as South African lion breeders in our current time today. You can kindly have a look at pictures taken in Tanzania and Zambia, or any area where free roaming lions are hunted in recent times.
(example pictures follows)
(examples of free roaming lion trophies taken)
As you would be able to see from such pictures, even the large-mane - cats from these free roaming concessions cannot even closely compare with the quality animals that we from the Ranch Lion Industry can offer now, most especially when it comes to body frame and mane.
(Pictures of Ranch Lion Trophies taken from our hunting concession in the 2013 season follow)
The species is being benefitted, both in numbers and quality, purely as a result of the commercial trophy hunting demand that stimulates our industry.
I hope that what I have illustrated by writing this letter to you would go a long way in helping you as USFWS to get a more clear knowledge and perspective of our industry by hearing about it from ground level. As I clearly explained, we are not new at what we do, we have been busy with this way of ranching for many decades.
I am sure you would agree, Sir, that before making your decision about the fate of the South African Ranch Lion, the right thing to do would be to try and get the full perspective. In order to do that, one would need to take in consideration The SA Ranch Lion Trade’s long-term-track-record and if you can sincerely do that, it would be extremely difficult for a person to still argue that we as a trade could be harmful to the African Lion as a species.
Sincerely yours,
Pieter D. van Zyl
Our point of view is that we as the Lion Farmers of SA do have a great contribution to make to the conservation of the African Lion and to say that the South African Ranch Lion Trade doesn’t contribute to the conservation of the African lion as a species is such a wrong and unfounded statement. We have been introducing ranch lions into the wild by the thousands over the last decade in South Africa. These lions hunt and feed naturally after their release within days and become completely self-sustainable in a matter of months, functioning completely independent, comparing to a free roaming pride anywhere in the wild.
Seems like this letter would have hurt the lion breeders cause more than helping it with Dan Ashe. IMHO.
Adding the word wild does not make it true, ...........
I agree I do not think it would have done much with USFWS.
I think it is a very rational argument and it presents his view of Farming. I can see why the reactions of people to Lions being farmed would be confusing to him. He must view Lions as livestock just like Cattle.
The disconnect appears to be in the consumption of his product..
What is "wild" in the authors mind?
I would like to see the evidence of the claims of self sustaining prides.
This may be part of the solution. If it is true.
Billc once again thanks for your input.
First of all, we live and learn.... PHASA had a task team that worked with SAPA, for two years, to try and work on a better system, for what is in many hunters opinions the sest pool of lion hunting in South Africa.
Your ignorance of my statement above does not make it untrue, in fact it justifies your impression that the decision was made because of anti hunting pressure, which is not the case.
If you are happy to shoot a cat that was released from a pen 96 hours before your arrival and to pick that specific lion from a picture line up to shoot, well Billc then that's up to you.
The 3 day lion shoot is hog wash, in my honest opinion, look at footage see how lionesses are chased down with truck until treed,,,, Billc that's horse shit!
So if I am labeled as a sell out because I am insisting on a better system and up until such a time I refuse to associate myself with lion hunting in SA.... Well then yes I am a sell out, but I have news for you.....
The majority of PHASA members were sell outs, NAPHA applauded us for our decision as members, APHA a applauded us for our decision,
ZPHGA applauded us for our decision,
WSF applauded us for our decision,
You criticizing myself does not bother me in the slightest.
I am not against lion hunting in SA I am against the rotten system it has become, PHASA tried to sort this with SAPA for two years, and no joy...
Now there is real pressure... Do or die.
I would love to invite you to my booth to have a look at my new brochures, but then again I fear that our conversation will not go well, so I'd advise you to stay away.
My best to you as always
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This thread was going to hell in a hand basket until myself and Marius swung it and together with positive input from PHOENIX PHIL, and many other members the trend had been turned until now.
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I agree that WE need a better game plan.
Anyone have some suggestions?
This is constructive:
Brickburn see if you could add points you too Marius and all...
In terms of breeding-
-human imprinting/domestication
-breeding conditions
-number of breeding operations
In terms of hunting
-wilding periods
-size of land
-limited CITES quota
-hunt duration
-hunting method
I will have a response from SAPA by January third and could shed some more light early next week.
We can thrash this around for now.
My best always
............... but I am not a big fan of a few deciding for many. ......
That is the nature of a democracy Bill.
The meeting held by PHASA had a quorum and at that meeting a MAJORITY chose a new policy.
Majority Rule.
Yup know how the system works. But they dont run all the hunting done there. When and if lion hunting is outlawed then more groups will have had there say on the outcome. Then I can support it if it becomes laws. I would not like it but would be ok with it.
Just not a fan of any group who makes money on hunting but sides with anything the antis are after. Makes it worse when some have made money on what they fight to stop now. Things do change and to stop doing it is one thing but trying to stop it just does not seem right to me.
IT maybe somewhere on this post but maybe someone could post it again. How many paid and current phasa members are there. Then how many of them voted in the last vote and what the vote ended up being.