PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

[Roy Sparks]

Roy,

I think you might be on to something. If there were lions in a 10000 hectacre area, no tracker/no PH I am sure guys would sign up for this hunt.

Could the guys be allowed to cull an animal or two for bait? Could they build blinds? Could they hunt with artificial light?

This would be a whole different type of safari.

Yes an animal or two for bait , but draw the line with artificial light. Shooting in the light of his campfire yes. Backup is his second barrel Brickburn. Old timers had one shot muzzle loaders. I've given enough ground. PH can take some photo's.

 

[bluey]

I'm in .......

 

[enysse]

2) I watched a lion hunt on one of the shows sometime ago. Can't remember exactly which show, but the hunt was in either Zim or Tanz. Bait was put out and sure enough a lion came in. The hunting party showed up for the evening hunt to find the lion beat them to the bait. The lion clearly saw the humans, but held his ground. The hunter took the lion with a frontal shot, the head of the cat just sunk to the ground, he was dead. Now that cat had he chosen to, could've bailed out and lived, but for whatever reason stayed. Is that fair chase? If on a RSA lion hunt on a large property that has plenty of cover for a lion to sneak away through and hide in, has been given more than a few days to acclimate to his new environment and if the lion after being bumped a couple of times decides to hold his ground or even charge and is subsequently taken by the hunter, is that much different than the scenario I just described of the wild lion hunt?

I hope you don't take this as me challenging you, but as intended to be a continuation of the discussion. While I have no issue with RSA lion hunting when done properly, I really don't know whether I would go on such a hunt. Money precludes me from doing a wild lion hunt for sure. This really doesn't bother me anymore than I can't afford to have a Ferrari in my driveway. Besides that I have far more interest in a leopard hunt.

But the subject should interest all of us hunters regardless of whether we want to hunt lion or not and we all have to arrive at some conviction on the matter. Those convictions in the end are really just opinions based somewhat in objective evidence but are also highly subjective such as in the case of what is considered fair chase. There's no sense in arguing if someone's subjective opinion is right or wrong, it's just their opinion and you're not likely to change it. But discussing differing opinions I find valuable and worthwhile.

The main difference is someone saved $40,000.

I agree with you Phil, I'm much more interested in a leopard hunt.....but I sure in hell don't want this lion hunting to sky rocket to only the rich and famous can hunt them anymore

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I agree with you Phil, I'm much more interested in a leopard hunt.....but I sure in hell don't want this lion hunting to sky rocket to only the rich and famous can hunt them anymore

Nor do I, but I can't see it at least going up some.

 

[Roy Sparks]

Nor do I, but I can't see it at least going up some.

It should not really be that expensive now as it is.

Lions breed prolifically.
There is to my knowledge an over production at times.
The breeders have introduced clever plans to their breeding projects that produce huge manes by three years old with the introduction of Barbary lion genetics - so turn over time is relatively quick in comparison to other species.
Most the bigger breeding facilities are situated in agricultural areas especially where there is huge maize production - that is where most the big beef feedlots and abattoirs are and all the big chicken farms. So feeding is actually very cheap. There is lots of meat to collect to feed them and costs mostly fuel to collect i.e. carcases of cattle dying and unborn calves from the slaughter facilities and condemned carcases.
Lions in captivities diet has to be regulated or they get obese and unhealthy so they actually get rationed smaller portions as they don't have space to burn it off like a wild lion would in the amount of walking they do. Captive lions food is brought to them , and water is laid on in the pens.
There are actually more fingers in the pie than is really necessary in a lion hunt deal.
Cell phone costs add to the inflated cost. I doubt in any other hunting scenario are phones heated up so much than during the process of these hunts.
Just a few points that came to mind. Oh , the bullshitting is very cheap too !!

 

[Royal27]

Oh , the bullshitting is very cheap too !!

I don't care which side of this you're on, that's funny!!!!

and true!

 

[enysse]

I agree with you Roy, making money is the name of the game. No one likes to make less and everyone wants it in the shortest time possible.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Would USA guides and outfitters in" general " be in support of the type of hunting we are discussing if it were to be suggested that it be conducted in the USA or Canada for that matter ? .................

Canada is broken down into provinces, as is RSA. Each province has different laws relating to hunting.
In Alberta, you can hunt "wild boar", goats, and bison inside a fence.
(The goats are the four horned variety and the boar are not indigenous.)

You can not hunt ANY game species inside an enclosure at all. ZERO.

Next province over you can hunt deer and Elk in an enclosure. Totally legally.
The Elk are transported, traded and moved as desired. Hunted in various size camps. Same issues as RSA. 160 acres paddock to whatever size. (Note Saskatchewan does not have any mountains.)

Quebec has some enclosed Red Deer hunting. I think they might have some Elk too.

Generally, being the second largest country on the planet we are blessed with very few people relatively and a LOT of space. (Although at times it does not feel like it)

Texas has got to be the home of high fenced hunting in North America. You can hunt Bongo in Texas.
Damned if I know how it is done. If I am ever lucky enough mine will be hiding in Africa for me to find.

So, we are all over the map here in North America on the subject. Some for some against.
Some see the Elk as wild and free and others see them as livestock.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..................

There is a better solution to this current system,
yes.....it'll push prices up,
yes.....less lions will be shot,
yes.....it'll be better,
yes.....the market will adjust.

SAPA is working on it as we speak.

As simple as that.
...................

It will be interesting to see the result.

 

[Hank2211]

So, we are all over the map here in North America on the subject. Some for some against.

Brickburn is right - we are all over the map in Canada (pun intended).

But we try not to get nasty or violent about our differences. I have rarely, if ever, heard someone here in Alberta argue that hunting elk behind fences in Saskatchewan should be banned. They may say it isn't hunting, but they don't look for a ban.

In Alberta it's legal to bait black bears. That's illegal in many provinces. But again, I haven't heard anyone suggesting the Alberta hunting industry should be shut down, or that Albertan's don't care about their wildlife.

Nor do any of these practises seem to hurt our attractiveness as a hunting destination.

Maybe because we don't suggest people who don't agree with us are destroying the planet.

 

[Roy Sparks]

Brickburn is right - we are all over the map in Canada (pun intended).

But we try not to get nasty or violent about our differences. I have rarely, if ever, heard someone here in Alberta argue that hunting elk behind fences in Saskatchewan should be banned. They may say it isn't hunting, but they don't look for a ban.

In Alberta it's legal to bait black bears. That's illegal in many provinces. But again, I haven't heard anyone suggesting the Alberta hunting industry should be shut down, or that Albertan's don't care about their wildlife.

Nor do any of these practises seem to hurt our attractiveness as a hunting destination.

Maybe because we don't suggest people who don't agree with us are destroying the planet.

Well PHASA and NAPHA picked a bun fight with their fellow hunters in shouting down hunting with dogs - those organisations hurt dedicated operators big time so my loyalties are zero for them. No apologies.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

BRICKBURN said: ↑
So, we are all over the map here in North America on the subject. Some for some against.

Not only North America, even in SA we're all over the map.....

 

[Hank2211]

BRICKBURN said: ↑
So, we are all over the map here in North America on the subject. Some for some against.

Not only North America, even in SA we're all over the map.....

Jaco, being all over the map isn't really the problem. It's how we deal with being all over the map - or, in other words, how we deal with those who don't agree with us.

I think it would be great for hunters, for PH's and for outfitters (and probably for RSA) if people found a way to get along on this issue, instead of attacking each other.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Generally, being the second largest country on the planet we are blessed with very few people relatively and a LOT of space. (Although at times it does not feel like it)

That's right, with the biggest country being Africa.....and don't you forget it.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Jaco, being all over the map isn't really the problem. It's how we deal with being all over the map - or, in other words, how we deal with those who don't agree with us.

I think it would be great for hunters, for PH's and for outfitters (and probably for RSA) if people found a way to get along on this issue, instead of attacking each other.

Fail to see attacks, members voted, we need to clean up the industry.
The vote was not made on behalf of us

 

[Bruce]

Yip... ALL over the map everywhere. BUT, unless we all stand together and make a committed statement and effort, we will always draw the short stick here......HOW is the million dollar question?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Fail to see attacks, members voted, we need to clean up the industry.
The vote was not made on behalf of us

Jaco, I'm playing the devil's advocate here. What was the vote count as compared to the total number of PHASA members? I have not attended a single PHASA meeting in the last four years, because I hunt for a living, which usually means 200-250 days a year, and the meeting in our area, always falls on a safari date. When I'm home for a day with my family, before the next safari starts, the chances of me traveling to some meeting is between zero and .....well you know the rest. ( I was hunting over the AGM's dates....by the way.)
So, does the 400+ members that voted, speak for everyone?
This vote could have been online from the PHASA website, where you need to enter your membership number to register your vote, in order for a more conclusive direction. Maybe it would be more overwhelmingly yes vote, I don't know, but 400 votes to decide on behalf of a few thousand members, hardly constitutes that "the members voted" IMHO.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Marius I was in Mozambique as well in short.

You are mentioning the EXACT issues that were mentioned when the vote went the other way 4 years ago (you find this interesting) exact......

The boots on the other foot know, if a quorum is established the vote is valid, that's the constitution.

THE SAMPEO CREW. And SHAKARI had the same problems with the previous vote.... It is what it is.

My best always

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Marius I was in Mozambique as well in short.

You are mentioning the EXACT issues that were mentioned when the vote went the other way 4 years ago (you find this interesting) exact......

The boots on the other foot know, if a quorum is established the vote is valid, that's the constitution.

THE SAMPEO CREW. And SHAKARI had the same problems with the previous vote.... It is what it is.

My best always

Thanks Jaco. Very fair comment.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Not trying to be funny boet but we have to take it into consideration.

My best always