PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting

[robertq]

So.... where have all the wild lions killed off ??????

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Pigs, goats, and cattle are not PREDATORS.... if you release a CBL in the wild it will be killed by wild lions.

Male, female or both?

 

[K-man]

Pigs, goats, and cattle are not PREDATORS.... if you release a CBL in the wild it will be killed by wild lions.

Agreed! But your assumption is the CBL is being released where wild lions exist. I can't imagine a scenario where that is necessary.

 

[robertq]

Agreed! But your assumption is the CBL is being released where wild lions exist. I can't imagine a scenario where that is necessary.

So where would you release them in AFRICA...

 

[robertq]

Male, female or both?

Both..

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

So where would you release them in AFRICA...

In areas where the lion population is low or non-existant would seem the reasonable answer.

 

[Royal27]

In areas where the lion population is low or non-existant would seem the reasonable answer.

I kinda agree with Robert here. Where would that be?

BVC sure couldn't find takers for the 250 extra they had...

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Both..

Were you speaking of males only, I could agree. Being a male lion, wild or not, is a pretty tough life to live from what I gather.

But a female? I'd think they would only possibly have to fear other females. Male lions would after all only welcome another lady is in harem no?

And from what I've seen with my own eyes, captive bred lions will learn to hunt once the man supplied food source is cut off.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I kinda agree with Robert here. Where would that be?

BVC sure couldn't find takers for the 250 extra they had...

True that.

 

[rinehart0050]

Pigs, goats, and cattle are not PREDATORS.... if you release a CBL in the wild it will be killed by wild lions.

Is this because a pride will take down the outsider? Doesn't the same risk apply to a transplanted wild lion? Possible rejection by the local pride?

What about introduction into an area where there are no lions? I suspect the CBL could survive there if adequate prey existed.

I think SAPA is trying to prove the naysayers wrong. Sounds like the effort is still in early stages:
https://agriorbit.com/wild-captive-bred-lions-making-history/

 

[robertq]

Were you speaking of males only, I could agree. Being a male lion, wild or not, is a pretty tough life to live from what I gather.

But a female? I'd think they would only possibly have to fear other females. Male lions would after all only welcome another lady is in harem no?

And from what I've seen with my own eyes, captive bred lions will learn to hunt once the man supplied food source is cut off.

Phil, when man alters Mother nature it never works.....we alter what is instinctive in them from birth... I am not a expert... but I have worked with hand rasied turkeys, phesants, quil and chuckar..... they don't act like wild birds....

 

[robertq]

Is this because a pride will take down the outsider? Doesn't the same risk apply to a transplanted wild lion? Possible rejection by the local pride?

What about introduction into an area where there are no lions? I suspect the CBL could survive there if adequate prey existed.

I think SAPA is trying to prove the naysayers wrong. Sounds like the effort is still in early stages:
https://agriorbit.com/wild-captive-bred-lions-making-history/

So where is there no lions in africa ?????

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil, when man alters Mother nature it never works.....we alter what is instinctive in them from birth... I am not a expert... but I have worked with hand rasied turkeys, phesants, quil and chuckar..... they don't act like wild birds....

Don't disagree in general with you Robert. Yet there is a wild pig problem in many parts of this country. Those wild pigs as I understand it came from domesticated pigs.

 

[robertq]

Don't disagree in general with you Robert. Yet there is a wild pig problem in many parts of this country. Those wild pigs as I understand it came from domesticated pigs.

Phil your right..... but a pig is not a predator.....

 

[Wheels]

Wheels, let's be clear about one damn thing.

I found your post so funny, I howled out loud! It did take a shot at someone - Americans. I have no idea how anyone could not have seen what you intended, so please, keep posting. Don't change a thing.

I am prepared to accept that for people whose first language may not be English may have a more difficult time with our humour - it's a truism that humour tends to be cultural, and does not always travel well.

I would ask those who were offended to realize that the post was intended to be humourous, that it actually was humorous, and the only people it was poking fun at were Americans.

Hank

I appreciate your response and clarification. I agree, Humor does not always translate well to other languages. I guess that is the reason Jerome gives us emojis. Maybe I should use them more.

Have a wonderful and fun filled evening

All the best!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil your right..... but a pig is not a predator.....

Neither is a pheasant. I really won't pretend to know all the answers. I was much better at physics than biology. So I'll leave it at this. With the ever expanding human population in Africa and the resulting encroachment on wildlife habitat, captive bred lions may someday be the only significant populations of lions left in this world.

Ending the hunting of CBLs will result in the end of lions bred in captivity. Do we want that regardless of our stances on the hunting of them?

 

[Therack]

Ending the hunting of CBLs will result in the end of lions bred in captivity.

Rhino looks to be in the same position.

 

[ActionBob]

There are also D&P and shippers in PHASA... USF&WL & CITES will never give a import permit.......

This is obviously true if we are only talking about lions.

My fondest hope is that the departing PH's will opt to form a new organization that will allow for censure of hunters that fail to meet standards for ethics and fair chase.

When I responded to this quote, waay back on page 1 it was short and my have missed the mark I was trying to point out that; Perhaps there was a typo and it should have said "hunts".... And if not, I would hope any such organization would FIRST censure the Outfitters and PH's who tend to get a a bit sloppy with their ethics and just simply get careless with the truth when representing hunts they are selling and conducting. There are some who have gotten so good at this, I honestly don't think they even know that when their lips are moving, they are lying. We are fortunate group on this site that we don't hear from such people very often and if we do, they don't stick around too long.

This whole debacle is not really a lion problem, it is obviously a people problem. And a whole lot of people have valid opinions that vary widely. It is indeed unfortunate that perception in this day of social media mania, has way to often become reality.... That is really what we are currently facing with the elephant situation. Science be damned, facts don't count, the collective opinion of the minions on fb has come to be perceived as the truth of day.

I did see a bright spot on there when @Royal27 posted about his recent elephant hunt.... When the facts are laid out so well, it leaves little room for critique.

I am truly confounded by this whole debate. I can see many sides. But when it comes down to would I book a hunt, it depends... However what is not up for debate is to be lied to about said hunt... Or oversold. I will say that @PHOENIX PHIL has discussed selling me a CBL lion hunt a few times over the last few years... And the consistent thing is he has been upfront and honest as to what it is and how it is. I see him selling these hunts while being a truly ethical man. Fortunately there are many out there like him.... Unfortunately there are a few who are not. And in between there are bunch of grey lines that get crossed to easily.

The one thing for certain is we are under assault and it won't stop so we had best get to figuring this out. This infighting is not helping.

 

[robertq]

This is obviously true if we are only talking about lions.



When I responded to this quote, waay back on page 1 it was short and my have missed the mark I was trying to point out that; Perhaps there was a typo and it should have said "hunts".... And if not, I would hope any such organization would FIRST censure the Outfitters and PH's who tend to get a a bit sloppy with their ethics and just simply get careless with the truth when representing hunts they are selling and conducting. There are some who have gotten so good at this, I honestly don't think they even know that when their lips are moving, they are lying. We are fortunate group on this site that we don't hear from such people very often and if we do, they don't stick around too long.

This whole debacle is not really a lion problem, it is obviously a people problem. And a whole lot of people have valid opinions that vary widely. It is indeed unfortunate that perception in this day of social media mania, has way to often become reality.... That is really what we are currently facing with the elephant situation. Science be damned, facts don't count, the collective opinion of the minions on fb has come to be perceived as the truth of day.

I did see a bright spot on there when @Royal27 posted about his recent elephant hunt.... When the facts are laid out so well, it leaves little room for critique.

I am truly confounded by this whole debate. I can see many sides. But when it comes down to would I book a hunt, it depends... However what is not up for debate is to be lied to about said hunt... Or oversold. I will say that @PHOENIX PHIL has discussed selling me a CBL lion hunt a few times over the last few years... And the consistent thing is he has been upfront and honest as to what it is and how it is. I see him selling these hunts while being a truly ethical man. Fortunately there are many out there like him.... Unfortunately there are a few who are not. And in between there are bunch of grey lines that get crossed to easily.

The one thing for certain is we are under assault and it won't stop so we had best get to figuring this out. This infighting is not helping.

The TRUTH will aiways prevail.....

 

[K-man]

So where is there no lions in africa ?????

Well I am old enough to remember 1980 and the beginnings of conservancies like the Bubye and the Save. Both of them had absolutely no lions in them at all. The only predator they couldn't eliminate off the cattle farms were leopards. Look at them today with surplus of both lions and elephants. Given the right political climate and capital both could be replicated today ( although that looks as unlikely today as it did back then). lions and elephants were translocated late in the process after there was ample plains game. I am not saying they used captive bred lions as i don't have all the information on that, but as an object lesson on what could happen given the right circumstances. There are lots of success stories of animals adapting and reproducing from captive populations. I think the CBL debate needs to be focused on a clear set of standards and enforcement.